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Thread: open carry and cops

  1. #1
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    open carry and cops

    so what happens if you are open carrying and some one calls the cops and tells them there is i guy walking down the street with a gun then the cop finds you and you tell them that you have a ccw permit and they still remove your gun from your possession and some how damages it (i.e drops it ) sense you have done nothing wrong dose the department have to cover damages i live in mpls mn

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtb3269 View Post
    so what happens if you are open carrying and some one calls the cops and tells them there is i guy walking down the street with a gun then the cop finds you and you tell them that you have a ccw permit and they still remove your gun from your possession and some how damages it (i.e drops it ) sense you have done nothing wrong dose the department have to cover damages i live in mpls mn
    i can't speak for MN. ask in that state forum

    i can tell you that in my state, it doesn't matter how many people call the police to report behavior X, if behavior X doesn't somehow rise to the level of reasonable suspicion, then the cops cannot lawfully make a subject stop

    the cops CAN walk up and talk to you, they have that same authority as any person, as long as their method of doing it doesn't rise ot the level of a constructive stop. however, if they do that just because somebody is open carrying, it borders on harassment, especially if it's a PATTERN.

    anytime anybody damages your property, cop or anybody else, then you have the right to sue for their damaging your property. with cops, i suggest you first make a formal request, but court is a final option.

    i sued somebody recently. it works

  3. #3
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    This is an (another) reason to carry a recorder. If you have some evidence besides the damaged property, it makes the lawyer's job easier and your determination to proceed more reasonable.

    ISTM the problem is this.

    We know absolute power corrupts. We know power is addictive. If we're going to give a group power we have to:
    a) disincentivize abuses and excesses of power using reward systems
    b) incentivize proper use of power
    c) provide checks and balances
    d) provide negative sanctions for those who abuse the system
    e) make those sanctions public and humiliating

    Why? people react to this with great fear. The fear is related to their need to stay integrated into society.

    Unfortunately, and here's the rub. Some people act counter to all incentives, and are not moved by fear-based sanctions. We call these people sociopaths and we hope that neither carriers, permit holders nor anyone within the law will be sociopaths. Again, unfortunately, the law ATTRACTS sociopaths, who see it as a way to be above it by being within it. And, they are often very smart.)

    FWIW
    Last edited by sawah; 02-16-2012 at 07:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post

    i can tell you that in my state, it doesn't matter how many people call the police to report behavior X, if behavior X doesn't somehow rise to the level of reasonable suspicion, then the cops cannot lawfully make a subject stop

    Yet they still do all time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 223to45 View Post
    Yet they still do all time.
    depends what you mean by "all the time"

    i know my agency is very good about dealing with OC

    there are a million OC stories in the forums in my state where people traipse all over and don't get messed with.

    the majority of the time somebody messes with them, it's not a cop

    that aside, even ONE Injustice is one injustice too many
    i just noticed you are whatcom county?

    isn't that where the liberal enclave of bellingham is?

    i've heard they SUCK!

    which is not surprising in that hyperliberal cities imo tend to be bad with this kind of thing
    Last edited by PALO; 02-22-2012 at 07:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    depends what you mean by "all the time"


    the majority of the time somebody messes with them, it's not a cop


    i just noticed you are whatcom county? isn't that where the liberal enclave of bellingham is?
    i've heard they SUCK!
    which is not surprising in that hyperliberal cities imo tend to be bad with this kind of thing
    I am in Whatcom County also. "all the time" Well three of us harassed by BPD in separate incidents over four years or so. Is that too much?

    The only people that "mess with me" are LEOs.

    The people in whatcom co seem fine with me OCing as I see mostly happy smiling faces in my daily travels. Now the local LEOs seem to be the people who "tend to be bad with these things"

    I will be honest, I no longer trust my local law enforcement. Not afraid, just wary. I have been watching your posts. Your comments appear biased.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    Welcome aboard dtb3269, It appears your new here so I would encourage you to read and research. There is lot's of info around. I have compiled lot's of beginning info and videos Linked Here Some of it is state specific but much of it is informational no matter where you are.
    Last edited by Motofixxer; 02-23-2012 at 02:50 PM.
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    dtb3269, another welcome to OCDO.

    If the cop drops or otherwise damages your property you file a claim against the cop and the cop's agency for damages. Don't know how much you are going to get for scratches on your handgun - maybe enough to pay for refinishing but certainly not at a top-tier shop.

    stay safe.
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  9. #9
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    i can't speak for MN. ask in that state forum

    i can tell you that in my state, it doesn't matter how many people call the police to report behavior X, if behavior X doesn't somehow rise to the level of reasonable suspicion, then the cops cannot lawfully make a subject stop

    Statutory or case law prohibitions on making a Terry-type stop do not stop illegal stops, detainments, or seizures from occurring, as is documented almost daily on this forum.

    You know as well as anyone that an LEO can stop and detain you for "moping with intent to creep" if he wants to. He can write a citation for "transporting a regulated ham sandwich" if he wants to. He can arrest you for "public display of grumpiness" if he wants to.

    Qualified immunity will shield him from immediate sanction, and there is NOTHING a citizen can do "in the field" to protect himself against renegade, rogue LEOs, short of having his own personal lawyer tag along every time he ventures into public.

    Most "bad cops" will do whatever they want, and "the courts will sort it out". And you know that is the case, so stop spreading these feel-good, unicorns-and-glitter lies about how LEOs "cannot" make illegal stops, serches, and seizures. Yes they can, and yes they do--EVERY DAY.

    Depending on how corrupt the local DA/PA is , how corrupt the local courts are, and the political and legal "juice" that the citizen has to defend himself, the sad fact is that there is NOTHING to prevent bad LEOs from behaving in a criminal manner. There ware laws that can be used to punish them AFTER THE FACT, but the whole concept of criminals is that they DON'T FOLLOW THE LAW.

    And in the mean time, while the "courts are sorting it out", the citizen--who has broken no laws--is subject to harassment, property seizure, denial of fundamental human rights, incarceration, and MASSIVE expense in the form of court fees, lawyer fees, and bail.

    Meanwhile the individual rouge LEO pays NOTHING out of pocket, and in all probability is still on the beat, abusing and harassing other people, and collecting a paycheck for the privilege.

    Saying that statutes, case law, and department policy somehow prevents bad LEOs from abusing the civil rights of citizens is like saying that the Drug Laws in the US prevent the illegal drug trade--it is absurd on it's face, and has no basis whatsoever on the reality of the criminal mindset, and the ABILITY of criminals to engage in criminal enterprises--whether those criminals are street-level crack dealers, the highest Don in La Cosa Nostra, or your local steroid-overloaded Barney Fife...

    You say that in your state (which I assume is OH) that LEAs don't allow their officers to effect illegal stops, detainments, harassment, or illegal detainments of lawful carriers. I'm sure that William Bartlett will be glad to hear that...

    Last edited by Dreamer; 02-23-2012 at 07:52 PM.
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    Regular Member AAriondo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    i can't speak for MN. ask in that state forum

    i can tell you that in my state, it doesn't matter how many people call the police to report behavior X, if behavior X doesn't somehow rise to the level of reasonable suspicion, then the cops cannot lawfully make a subject stop

    the cops CAN walk up and talk to you, they have that same authority as any person, as long as their method of doing it doesn't rise ot the level of a constructive stop. however, if they do that just because somebody is open carrying, it borders on harassment, especially if it's a PATTERN.

    anytime anybody damages your property, cop or anybody else, then you have the right to sue for their damaging your property. with cops, i suggest you first make a formal request, but court is a final option.

    i sued somebody recently. it works
    In any state an officer can stop you for open carry and ask you for your identification but all you should do is politley surrender the weapon and give him or her your permit and ID an you will be on your way. They have to protect and they have no way of knowing who you are until they do so. The worst thing to do is argue your rights with an Officer in public. If you do it the rite way there will be no accidents. I do not feel it is harrassment unless they will not let you go. Then its another issue all together

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    In any state an officer can stop you for open carry and ask you for your identification but all you should do is politley surrender the weapon and give him or her your permit and ID an you will be on your way. They have to protect and they have no way of knowing who you are until they do so. The worst thing to do is argue your rights with an Officer in public. If you do it the rite way there will be no accidents. I do not feel it is harrassment unless they will not let you go. Then its another issue all together .
    In any state an officer can stop you for open carry and ask you for your identification but all you should do is politley surrender the weapon and give him or her your permit and ID
    Correct, they can ask you to identify yourself.

    No, you are under 0 Obligation to present ID in 99% of occurences. Please read around the forum and understand, that just because its what they want, doesnt make it legal or necessary. Go find 10 studies that say criminals walk around obeying the law and with proper holsters(excluding corrupt police officers). Also, go to flexyourrights.org; talking to police will never help you in court.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AAriondo View Post
    They have to protect and they have no way of knowing who you are until they do so. The worst thing to do is argue your rights with an Officer in public. If you do it the rite way there will be no accidents. I do not feel it is harrassment unless they will not let you go. Then its another issue all together

    Umm sorry but the only thing they protect is themselves; Courts have made that clear. The only thing my ID is going to tell them is who they can send their bill too, No thanks I don't want any. If you as an individual don't stand for your rights, then you have none, and can't argue anything. Of course they want you to consent and give up everything.

    But thank you for your input officer AAriondo
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AAriondo View Post
    In any state an officer can stop you for open carry and ask you for your identification but all you should do is politley surrender the weapon and give him or her your permit and ID an you will be on your way. They have to protect and they have no way of knowing who you are until they do so. The worst thing to do is argue your rights with an Officer in public. If you do it the rite way there will be no accidents. I do not feel it is harrassment unless they will not let you go. Then its another issue all together
    That's funny.
    I had a Sheriff's Deputy responding to a MWAG call on me and he asked me for my ID, I asked if I was under arrest or being detained for suspicion of any crime. They responded 'no, we're just checking things out." I told him "No, I don't think so then," and oddly, I never heard anything more on the subject. As he said that I wasn't being detained for suspicion of any crime, he had no authority to demand it and agreed with me when I reminded him of that fact. I also declined their request to have a "friendly little voluntary chat" with the responding Deputies, so they handed back my firearm, I loaded up and they left. I'd say that standing firm is really the best and quickest way not to prolong an encounter (at least with peace officers that are actually following the law.)

    I also have had a Sheriff's deputy responding to my call about someone parking their car in my driveway. He wanted me to surrender my openly carried pistol. I told him to get the H*** off my property. He left butthurt... but he left. That would be Deputy See of the South Precinct. Captain Freeman and I had a chat about his deputy later that week.


    Officer Friendly can ask me to identify myself, he can ask me to disarm, he can ask me if my favorite color is blue, and he can ask me if I want to go back to his place and play naked Twister.
    - It doesn't mean any of that is actually happening, without authority of law.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-02-2012 at 07:29 PM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    D'ja ever get the feeling that the posters here are much more knowledgeable about, and respect the Law (capital "L") than those who are officers posting here?

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Huh?

    quote from above,,,,, I also declined their request to have a "friendly little voluntary chat" with the responding Deputies, so they handed back my firearm, I loaded up and they left.


    so you stood your ground about ID,,,,, BUT the cops had your GUN?
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  16. #16
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    quote from above,,,,, I also declined their request to have a "friendly little voluntary chat" with the responding Deputies, so they handed back my firearm, I loaded up and they left.


    so you stood your ground about ID,,,,, BUT the cops had your GUN?
    Well, in fairness I kinda got bushwacked in that department.
    I thought I heard a knock on the door when I was already on my way out to the garage to go down to the pistol range. When I opened the garage door I was immediately surrounded and relieved of my personal effects without so much as a "How d'you do." Which was when I asked if I was being detained/arrested, and what charges were being supposed.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-02-2012 at 08:25 PM.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    Why did the cops come to your house in the first place?

    I am surprised that they would feel free to disarm a citizen,, on his own property!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  18. #18
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Funny thing about carrying ID while on foot and OC-ing.

    It might all be in the way you do it. If you say the RIGHT thing in the right order and look right, and stay patient, it gets dropped.

    If you are carrying sterile in a 'no stop and ID' location, and you are asked for ID and you, knowing you don't have one, go to feel for your wallet and say, 'Oh, shucks, I left my wallet in my other jacket or something', you probably will not have a satisfactory outcome - you seemed to think you had to produce it or some kind of permit.

    If you stand your ground and say 'This state/county/location does not require ID without RAS with no RAF to support a stop, or a stop and search', and just stand there, hands away from firearm, you might be on about your business.

    (just pondering aloud. IANAL)
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  19. #19
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    Why did the cops come to your house in the first place?

    I am surprised that they would feel free to disarm a citizen,, on his own property!
    First instance, MWAG call, I was loading up the blubaru to go to the range and some contractors across the street saw my activities.
    Second instance, (as linked to in post) criminal trespassing with me as the Reporting Party.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-03-2012 at 12:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    D'ja ever get the feeling that the posters here are much more knowledgeable about, and respect the Law (capital "L") than those who are officers posting here?
    No. I do get the feeling they're more confrontational about it, however.
    The Dogs of War are nothing compared to the Cats

  21. #21
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kivuli View Post
    No. I do get the feeling they're more confrontational about it, however.
    I see people who refuse to roll over on their backs and pee themselves like little puppies.
    I haven't seen anyone on here confronting officers.... correcting them and stating what the law says, is another thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    I see people who refuse to roll over on their backs and pee themselves like little puppies.
    I haven't seen anyone on here confronting officers.... correcting them and stating what the law says, is another thing.
    I see people (not all, and not even the majority) who are needlessly antagonistic in their method for doing so. Everything has to be a fight for those individuals. Everything has to be raise our hackles and hiss and spit to show them we're not submissive little puppies (as you put it).
    The Dogs of War are nothing compared to the Cats

  23. #23
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Antagonistic?
    That is confrontational
    That is antagonistic
    That is not serving the people

    That we resist such (expletive deleted) is a point in our favor, not theirs.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-04-2012 at 04:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fallschirmjäger View Post
    antagonistic?

    That is confrontational
    that is antagonistic
    that is not serving the people

    that we resist such (expletive deleted) is a point in our favor, not theirs.
    QED. The vitriol in this post is astounding.
    Last edited by Kivuli; 03-04-2012 at 06:57 PM.
    The Dogs of War are nothing compared to the Cats

  25. #25
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kivuli View Post
    QED. The vitriol in this post is astounding.
    Vitriol? My dear sir, I must humbly suggest you have no idea of the meaning of the word. If I may beg your indulgence, I will supply a few examples of vitriol......




    EDIT: My mistake, not 'former' Officer, FIRED officer.



    ... and these are the "good guys"?
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-04-2012 at 08:25 PM.

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