HighFlyingA380
Regular Member
I'm a pilot, and I'm all for them getting rid of the program. Only, of course, because I think everybody should be able to carry a gun on planes.
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Obama’s Plan To Kill Armed Pilot Program
- Thread starter oldbanger
- Start date
since9
Campaign Veteran
Since we can't, let's keep the program. Ok by you?
Beretta92FSLady
Regular Member
While I see a value in security on flights, I would prefer the pilot be flying the plane, a heavy duty metal door will suffice to keep the pilot flying the plane.
yz9890
Regular Member
I fly those planes and have yet to see a "heavy duty metal door" in any of them. Yes, they lock and are bullet resistant. That in no way means a determined person or people can't gain entry in a short time.
There are other design and procedural shortcomings in that environment that aren't appropriate to talk about publicly that can be at least addressed by an armed person on the flight deck.
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Beretta92FSLady
Regular Member
Planes are cramped areas, and discharging a firearm at close range has a host of issues, one is over-penetration. I am not sure about anyone else but I don't want some pilot carrying a firearm firing it--not to mention a pilot who may not be trained to retain the firearm, and loses it to some terrorist or nut-job during a fight for control. It cramped areas like that, hand to hand combat is the best option. The pilot wants to carry something, a knife that he is trained to use proficiently; not that a knife fight doesn't have it's downsides.
yz9890
Regular Member
yep they are cramped areas. but you can put a 10mm hole just about anywhere in that plane and it'll be just fine. including every system and subsystem and the skin/windows. FFDO's are trained and retrained about the tactical limitations and dangers of shooting in a close environment exclusively because that is 100% of their agency. they are also given some hand to hand training. I don't think it's enough training either but I think since the scope of an FFDO's agency is so limited and therefor the training is focused on that small environment, the benefits are greater than the risks.
Steeler-gal
Regular Member
Isn't the assumption that the owner/user of the gun is untrained the same argument that the anti-gun groups use? If the pilot can't have one on a plane because it is assumed he's untrained, then you can't have or carry one either.
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HighFlyingA380
Regular Member
It doesn't matter how 'heavy duty' the door is; Since they don't re-enforce the walls on either side of the door, what good is it? With most transport category aircraft with lavatories right behind the cockpit, you can kick your foot through the wall and circuit panel. A bullet won't even notice it's there.
That's why air marshals (not sure about FFDOs, but I'd assume it's the same) carry frangible ammo. It won't penetrate the plastic seats or metal skin.
10mm hole? What about the 6ft. hole Southwest recently had? What about Aloha Airlines flight 243 that lost half the cabin and still flew fine? 10mm hole is nothing. Hell, there is a 1.5-2ft. diameter hole in the tail of all the big guys; A little something called the outflow valve. There is a plethora of tests and research out there proving that catastrophic explosive decompression just doesn't happen, only in extremely rare and unusual cases.
yz9890
Regular Member
other than the probable human damage, I'd bet dozens of people could do complete mag dumps in the same plane without doing any catastrophic damage.
no frangible ammo though. both FAM's and FFDO's carry generic white box Remington hollow points (no longer Speer Gold dots). FAM's in 357 Sig. FFDO in 40 S&W. sometimes frangible is used at certain ranges during re-qualification due to limitations of the range. not sure why they're so hesitant to switch to frangible ammo in the plane. seems like a pretty good idea.
no frangible ammo though. both FAM's and FFDO's carry generic white box Remington hollow points (no longer Speer Gold dots). FAM's in 357 Sig. FFDO in 40 S&W. sometimes frangible is used at certain ranges during re-qualification due to limitations of the range. not sure why they're so hesitant to switch to frangible ammo in the plane. seems like a pretty good idea.
Beretta92FSLady
Regular Member
I'm not concerned about the plane itself being compromised from shots fired; I am concerned about people sitting around during the scuffle. We aren't talking about a carry situation on the ground, we are talking about thousands of feet in the air where the pilot ought to be flying, not fighting.
Beretta92FSLady
Regular Member
You might not be aware of this but we can't carry onto a plane.
Beretta92FSLady
Regular Member
I am not concerned about the skin of the plane being compromised. Frangibles come with downsides. All I am stating is that the pilot ought to be flying, not fighting, and shooting.
yz9890
Regular Member
I agree with that 100%. i imagine it's hard to fly a plane when you're bleeding to death though.
FFDO is certainly not a perfect solution though.
Steeler-gal
Regular Member
I am. My point is that saying he shouldn't carry because he's untrained just feeds right in to the whole anti-gun sentiment.
Beretta92FSLady
Regular Member
Individuals who carry should have some miniman retention training, IMO *takes cover*.
yz9890
Regular Member
there is retention training. I'm not sure if it meets your "minimum" though. i doubt it.
yz9890
Regular Member
you may get blasted for your opinion. (that's certainly not uncommon here) but you wont get if from me. I appreciate your comments and the discussion. I understand that the FFDO program makes a lot of people nervous.
Steeler-gal
Regular Member
Beretta92FSLady
Regular Member
what is miniman training?
That is a great question.
randian
Regular Member
The pilot firing at somebody implies the cockpit door has been breached. The choice between "fighting and flying" is moot. That's a far more worrisome situation than the fact that a firearm is being used.
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