ThatOneChick
Regular Member
I don't necessarily want to chance "in theory" so I'll leave the flag burning to those criminal boy scouts lol.
-
We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
-
If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
-
Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.
Should flags be lowered for Whitney Houston?
- Thread starter thebigsd
- Start date
I don't necessarily want to chance "in theory" so I'll leave the flag burning to those criminal boy scouts lol.
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
Once upon a time, I was a flag-salutin', hard-chargin', super-patriotic, strong military-supporting US Marine.
Then I found out about government lies, and about the history of the government in this country. Coincident with this process was self-education about rights.
Now, regarding the flag, my sentiments are more in line with George Carlin: "The flag is a symbol. And, I leave symbols to the symbol-minded...I have this little thing I do. Its called thinking." I'm not dismissive of flag-wavers as Carlin might have been, nor of the flag itself. But, I'm a lot less of a flag-waver who gets a lump in his throat or all patriotic at the mention of the flag, or things that it is traditionally used to mis-represent.
So, with that said, lower the flag to half-staff for Whitney Houston? Why not?
I'd damn sure rather see it lowered to half staff out of national respect for the tremendous talent and aesthetic contributions of a woman like Houston, than see it half-staffed as sign of national respect for the likes of criminal-in-chief like Nixon, or when they do finally go from natural causes, Carter, Bush (either), Clinton (either), Cheney, etc., etc., etc.
What can you really say of a nation that would not recognize the tremendous talent of someone like Houston, but would actually tolerate demeaning a national symbol by letting the remaining government criminals lower it out of "respect" for a deceased government criminal?
So, I vote "go for it." Half-staff the flag for Houston. She had her troubles in life, no doubt there. But, I would sooner honor her for her talent and aesthetic contributions than many of the people for whom the flag is actually lowered. Certainly it would be a step up in status for the poor old flag.
Full Disclosure: I'm not a Houston fan. I only really liked maybe two or three of her songs. But, that does not mean a huge number of people did not enjoy her amazing talent. Nor, does it mean that I am prohibited from recognizing that she was a rare gem these days--a singer who could actually sing, and sing well.
Then I found out about government lies, and about the history of the government in this country. Coincident with this process was self-education about rights.
Now, regarding the flag, my sentiments are more in line with George Carlin: "The flag is a symbol. And, I leave symbols to the symbol-minded...I have this little thing I do. Its called thinking." I'm not dismissive of flag-wavers as Carlin might have been, nor of the flag itself. But, I'm a lot less of a flag-waver who gets a lump in his throat or all patriotic at the mention of the flag, or things that it is traditionally used to mis-represent.
So, with that said, lower the flag to half-staff for Whitney Houston? Why not?
I'd damn sure rather see it lowered to half staff out of national respect for the tremendous talent and aesthetic contributions of a woman like Houston, than see it half-staffed as sign of national respect for the likes of criminal-in-chief like Nixon, or when they do finally go from natural causes, Carter, Bush (either), Clinton (either), Cheney, etc., etc., etc.
What can you really say of a nation that would not recognize the tremendous talent of someone like Houston, but would actually tolerate demeaning a national symbol by letting the remaining government criminals lower it out of "respect" for a deceased government criminal?
So, I vote "go for it." Half-staff the flag for Houston. She had her troubles in life, no doubt there. But, I would sooner honor her for her talent and aesthetic contributions than many of the people for whom the flag is actually lowered. Certainly it would be a step up in status for the poor old flag.
Full Disclosure: I'm not a Houston fan. I only really liked maybe two or three of her songs. But, that does not mean a huge number of people did not enjoy her amazing talent. Nor, does it mean that I am prohibited from recognizing that she was a rare gem these days--a singer who could actually sing, and sing well.
Last edited:
Personal opinion:
The lowering of the flag to half staff should be reserved for those who have held high office, elevated rank, or performed exceptionally meritorious service of particular note.
No singer, sports star, race car driver, writer of fiction qualifies on those merits alone.
I shall always hold our flag in extremely high regard for what I believe it stands for and for what others have done to preserve its dignity. There is only one Old Glory, one Star Spangled Banner. That ymmv does not change that. I still get a lump in my throat and my chest swells at our National Anthem, as well as some other songs i.e. those immortalized by Kate Smith. That is who I am and I make no apology for it.
The lowering of the flag to half staff should be reserved for those who have held high office, elevated rank, or performed exceptionally meritorious service of particular note.
No singer, sports star, race car driver, writer of fiction qualifies on those merits alone.
I shall always hold our flag in extremely high regard for what I believe it stands for and for what others have done to preserve its dignity. There is only one Old Glory, one Star Spangled Banner. That ymmv does not change that. I still get a lump in my throat and my chest swells at our National Anthem, as well as some other songs i.e. those immortalized by Kate Smith. That is who I am and I make no apology for it.
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
These are great ideas. Say, if things really worked that way.
Unfortunately, too many "in high office" are criminals who trod all over the constitution. Mangling it, refusing to recognize it. Damn, damn, damn too few willing to actually, genuinely, sincerely honor it, or rather its specific limitations on government.
And, elevated rank can't really apply in a nation where all are equals. I can see lowering the British flag for an earl or duke since they hold a higher rank than a knight or mere commoner, but not here.
Exceptionally meritorious service. I can go along with this one. As long as it is a genuinely beneficial contribution. But, I think Houston might fit this critierion.
Last edited:
NO !! but if that obama gets realected I will lower my flag and put the "Dont Tread on Me" above it.
09jisaac
Regular Member
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
Yes.
Shall we take Jefferson off the nickel and $2 bill because he owned slaves? De-list Monticello because he died in debt? Nullify the Declaration of Independence because the author later advocated a bill of attainder?
How about Georges Mason and Washington? Belittle them over their slaves, too? Mason's advocacy of the Bill of Rights counts for nought because of his imperfections.
Or, hey, maybe we should write Cicero out of Roman history even though he strove mightily to preserve the Republic, because, you know, he was vain and promoted his own accomplishments too much. Yeah, lets venerate his killers, those models of freedom, Mark Antony and Octavian (Augustus Ceasar).
Oh, I know! Jesus. You know the one I mean. The Nazarene. Just de-list him. Because, you know, He lost faith on the cross. Yeah, kick that jerk right out of history. Tear down all the churches erected in His name. Cancel the holidays celebrating His birth and resurrection. What a hypocrite He was--teaching people to believe, then losing faith while his wrists and feet were nailed to a cross. You'd think a son of God could stand a little pain.
Thus, even Houston, being a mere average human with the weaknesses of a human, deserves exactly zero credit for what she accomplished despite her vices.
/sarcasm
Last edited:
Very eloquent, Citizen.
Somehow I don't relegate Whitney to the same category as Jefferson, Mason, Washington, Cicero and Jesus.
I do put her along side Michael Jackson though - both were great entertainers. Difference between the two is that I liked nothing Jackson did, but I was in awe of Whitney's voice. Do not and would not recommend that we lower the colors on a national scale for either.
Feel free to do so if you wish - no rule against it.
HandyHamlet
Regular Member
uh, what?
What exactly did she accomplish? Her job was singing. And she was good at her job. For a while anyway. I know a sh*tload of people who are good at their jobs. You are supposed to be good at your job. I know a lot of people who not only are still good at their job but they are still alive too.
So what exactly were her big "accomplishments" again?
ThatOneChick
Regular Member
JoeSparky
Centurion
Don't forget to fly it UPSIDE down!
HandyHamlet
Regular Member
Last edited:
ThatOneChick
Regular Member
Well, regardless if she was using it for tax write offs or not, she did charitable work and possibly saved lives. Period.
09jisaac
Regular Member
Ok so everyone who starts a charity for kids should have flags lowered in their honor?
I don't see anything wrong (nothing right either) with lowering the flag for her, but I think that there were probably more deserving that came before her that didn't get it. I don't even think her drug abuse should keep her from being honored, if there was an accomplishment great enough for her to be honored in the 1st place.
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
What are you asking me for? The information is out there and dates from the mid-1980's. Why not figure it out for yourself?
Lets review. I started out saying the flag is a symbol. And, I'm less of a flag-waving hyper-patriot than I was in youth because I've seen the lies the the government wraps in the flag. I'll add here that the flag is nothing but a piece of cloth. Literally, any and all meaning is added by the viewer. And, the essential meaning, no matter whatever other meanings and connotations, the only meaning that cannot be removed is this nation, meaning literally each person in this country. And, that's it. One fiber for the cab driver at 42nd and Main St., one fiber for grocery checker in Keokuk, one fiber for school janitor in Middletown... Nothing more, nothing less. It just means all the people here. Anything else is add-on meaning.
And, the sociopaths for whom the flag has been half-staffed in the past--criminals masquerading as government--don't deserve to have flag half-staffed. Certainly--absolutely certainly--none of us owe any respect to the kinds of people who too often receive the half-staff respect.
So, who's left? How about people who didn't rule over others, plaguing them with regulations and stealing their produce by coercion? How about some engineers who built up our world? Some visionaries like Steve Jobs? How about just 5 minutes at half-staff for the fella who invented the transistor when his time comes?
And, how about the folks who lift us up a few minutes a day--the artists? You don't think someone who provides a momentary lift to millions of people maybe deserves a little bit of a sign of national mourning, meaning you would actively advocate against others showing respect? I'd half-staff a flag for Beethoven and John Williams, but I gotta say that if all I had to listen to was instrumentals, life would be drearier.
Now, the last couple posts, I've been annoyed at posters who couldn't see past their own critical nature enough to see the contributions Houston made, getting all wrapped up in her drug abuse. I'm not a Houston fan, only liked a very few of her songs. But, I'll say again, she had one hell of a voice and used it. And, how many people were inspired by her? How many people did she reach with her artistry? Out of six billion people, how many people in the world can sing that well? And, of those, which ones actually go on to brighten our days, reaching millions?
I'll say it again. If anybody deserves a half-staffed flag its the Houstons and Jobs and Frosts and Kings and Spielbergs and Lockes and Fords of this world. The real contributors. And, for damn sure its not but a few of the presidents and cabinet secretaries and all that trash.
HandyHamlet
Regular Member
So do others, including members here. And people who actually work for charities. Nurses save lives. No one lowers the flag for them. EMTs anyone?
She had a job like everyone else. She was good at it for a while. Then ****** it up. Then killed herself. Quite an accomplishment.
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
You know, folks. I've seen the light. Handy is right.
Reagan had a job, just like everyone else. He was good at it until he got into jelly beans and slept too much in cabinet meetings.
Too bad we wasted a day of mourning, half-staffed flags, and a 21 gun salute on that ****er.
Same for Columbia's crew. They were just doing a job. Truck drivers on a tired old space truck littering up space, and half of Texas. All the pioneering work was done by the Apollo guys anyway. Total waste of time and mourning on those people. Nothing more than wearing out pulleys with that bull$nit of raising the flag to the top, then halfway down, and then at the end of the day raising it to the top again.
It was just a job. Something they were expected to do.
/sarcasm
Last edited:
HandyHamlet
Regular Member
I merely asked you a question. You seem to think she has all these great accomplishments...
I say I don't give anyone respect who does not respect themselves, their career, their fans, their life...their family. She took the easy way out plain and simple. You honestly think that is deserving of respect? Have at it. People want to mourn? Go ahead. Put entertainers on a pedestal? Go for it. It's a free country. Doesn't mean I have to think she deserves any kind of national recognition, like a flag lowering in her honor. Don't like what I have to say? Who does? You say tomato, I say... well actually I say tomato too, but I'm sure you get it.
I've given Whitney Spears way to much of my attention so I'll bid you a happy weekend.
ThatOneChick
Regular Member
I never once said that. If you had actually read through this topic, you would've seen my first post in it. Here, let me help you with that.
ThatOneChick said:
I was simply answering the question of what has she accomplished.
Yes, I do realize that there are people who sacrifice a lot for the well being of others. Even though she had started doing drugs, I don't think that lessens the impact her charity had done. Yes, it's sad that she could've done so much with her life but, for the people her money had helped, I'm sure they really appreciate it.
We had an off-duty officer here who helped save lives by stopping a shooter in a gun-free zone. Later on down the road, he was charged with abusing his power. Does that mean he didn't save the lives of the people in the gun-free zone?
Last edited:
ThatOneChick
Regular Member
Can I ask why you keep calling her "Whitney Spears"? Her name is Whitney Houston.
So, she takes the easy way out and that means she doesn't deserve your respect? What about the vets who've suffered from PTSD and have killed themselves?