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Thread: How many people here OC without a CPL?

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    How many people here OC without a CPL?

    Just curious how many users OC without a CPL, and how much of a inconvience it is putting it in the trunk when you leave the establishment? I'm new to the open carry policy, and purchasing my first handgun on Monday.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    I do because I'm not yet 21. It sucks having load and unload but it's just something you have to do. I'm to the point where I'm used to it. Make sure you take the case all the way out of the trunk, then take the gun out of the case, then load it and holster. Same thing for putting it back in but pretty much in reverse.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member GlockIt's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    I do. Im fairly new to the oc world myself.

    Im waiting to take my cpl class at the end of this month.

    I havent yet took my gun out in the car, only oc while walking my dog.

    I asked alot of questions on the forum about transporting and oc without cpl,
    seems straight forward. Im sure its a bit of a hassel to have to go through the
    whole trunk routine every time to carry but its whats gotta be done without a cpl.

    There are alot of thin lines when doing so. Becareful, before you go out and transport to oc
    check out the forum and ask questions if you need to.

    There is alot of little laws that could jam you up when you dont have a cpl.

    I found alot of people here will give great advice when it comes to this subject.
    Id rather look at my ugly Glock than shoot your fancy S&W.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockIt View Post
    I found alot of people here will give great advice when it comes to this subject.
    Here's the best advice anybody will give you here....

    Don't trust our advice. Go read and study the laws for yourself. Then ask some questions and go study them again to make sure what we say matches what you've read. If it doesn't match up you then have to figure out if we're wrong or if you read it wrong.

    Sometimes we will tell people wrong stuff just for fun. Ok, that last bit is a complete fabrication. Or is it? The point is you should always take everything we write with a pound of salt because we're just some people on the interwebs that you don't know and we may be completely full of crap. It just so happens that we're probably not, but we may be

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member GlockIt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Here's the best advice anybody will give you here....

    Don't trust our advice. Go read and study the laws for yourself. Then ask some questions and go study them again to make sure what we say matches what you've read. If it doesn't match up you then have to figure out if we're wrong or if you read it wrong.

    Sometimes we will tell people wrong stuff just for fun. Ok, that last bit is a complete fabrication. Or is it? The point is you should always take everything we write with a pound of salt because we're just some people on the interwebs that you don't know and we may be completely full of crap. It just so happens that we're probably not, but we may be

    Bronson

    The nerve of some people geez.
    Id rather look at my ugly Glock than shoot your fancy S&W.

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    Regular Member DetroitBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepopo View Post
    Just curious how many users OC without a CPL, and how much of a inconvience it is putting it in the trunk when you leave the establishment? I'm new to the open carry policy, and purchasing my first handgun on Monday.
    I have been Open carrying since the end of December without a CPL and its a pain in the ass.

    I dont even bother bringing my gun if Im just running up to Meijers. no point in just leaving it in the case

  7. #7
    Regular Member GlockIt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitBiker View Post
    I have been Open carrying since the end of December without a CPL and its a pain in the ass.

    I dont even bother bringing my gun if Im just running up to Meijers. no point in just leaving it in the case
    Is it legal to even have the gun cased in the car, in a parking lot of a business that
    has a liquor licences without cpl?

    Or is is just ilegal to be carrying on persons in the parking lot?
    Last edited by GlockIt; 02-17-2012 at 05:54 AM.
    Id rather look at my ugly Glock than shoot your fancy S&W.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitBiker View Post
    I have been Open carrying since the end of December without a CPL and its a pain in the ass.

    I dont even bother bringing my gun if Im just running up to Meijers. no point in just leaving it in the case
    Legally you can't keep the gun in your vehicle in Meijers parking lot. Look up 750.234d for the parking lot exemption. Let me know when you find it.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...e=mcl-750-234d

    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234d.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    (c) A court.
    (d) A theatre.
    (e) A sports arena.
    (f) A day care center.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
    -snip-

    Possess means, among other things, to have under your control. So if a gun is in a case in your vehicle.... a vehicle you own/drove to get there and have the keys that allow access to that gun... you "possess" it.

    Premises means.... every bit of property... all of it... buildings, lawn, and parking lot.

    With a plain reading of the law (and I am NOT an attorney... just another schmuck reading the law) it appears to me that without a CPL or the owner's/his agent's permission it is illegal to have a gun of any kind (it says "firearm" not just pistol!) anywhere on the property of a place that has a liquor license.

    Please note that law also only deals with a place that has a liquor license... the store/gas station/whatever doesn't have to actually sell booze.. it just has to have the license so just because there isn't any booze for sale there that doesn't necessarily mean they don't have the license.

    Other folks might read that differently and, as always, the advice of an attorney is suggested.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    everything you're saying seems to be logical bikenut.
    so... for example: if a gander mountain and an applebees share a parking lot, and an individual without a CPL wants to bring his gun to be repaired at gander mountain would he be in violation of the law? just curious about how ridiculous this law could potentially be.
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 02-17-2012 at 10:23 AM.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Just park next door.

    To answer your question SLM, it would depend on who owned the parking lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Just park next door.

    To answer your question SLM, it would depend on who owned the parking lot.
    this one got me thinking who owns the parking lot in a strip mall? 7-15 stores a few of which could have a liquor licences,any thoughts?

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    yeah, it really puts law abiding citizens in a predicament. it puts people at risk of unintentionally breaking the law just stopping off at the grocery story on the way to or from hunting if they have a gun in the trunk.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    Case by case. The assumption would be, that all the businesses are renting the property, and the owner likely does not have a liquor license, only property to rent.


    What I want to know, is the best way to find out.

    Lets say, you go to a strip mall to get groceries, you park in front on the hardware store trying to remain compliant. Would a reasonable person think you parked at the grocery store, or the hardware store? Would it hold up in court?

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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    I do because I'm not yet 21. It sucks having load and unload but it's just something you have to do. I'm to the point where I'm used to it. Make sure you take the case all the way out of the trunk, then take the gun out of the case, then load it and holster. Same thing for putting it back in but pretty much in reverse.
    How do you do that with a pickup truck that has a cap?

    I don't go very many places, mostly Wal-Mart and resturaunts. I will probably leave it home 90% of the time unless I know I can OC without breaking one of these laws. Is there a Michigan wide list somewhere listing all the dining establishments that do not permit open carry? I understand most of these laws, I just don't want the manager of the chicken shack for example to call the police if I'm OC in his resturaunt and I didn't get the memo

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    sorta, heres a place you ca check to see if they have a liquor license.

    http://www2.dleg.state.mi.us/llist/

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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepopo View Post
    How do you do that with a pickup truck that has a cap?
    750.231a says,

    and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

    So, it has to be in a gun case/safe, in a place that is not easily accessible. Put the gun as far from you as possible, preferably in a place where you exit the vehicle to retrieve it, and most of us recommend using a locked case. Theres no requirement for a lock, but it helps.

    Those book sized pistol cases that have a simple key lock are available for 25 or 30 dollars.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 02-17-2012 at 12:53 PM.

  18. #18
    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by futurepopo View Post
    Just curious how many users OC without a CPL, and how much of a inconvience it is putting it in the trunk when you leave the establishment? I'm new to the open carry policy, and purchasing my first handgun on Monday.
    Prior to my CPL,I didn't mind the trunk load-unload process because I knew for a fact that my life and the lives of my fellow citizens were worth the small hassle I had to go through! How would you feel if you were too lazy to go through "the hassle" and someone,or you,were the victim of a violent crime,and you were a witness to it?And could have prevented it?Common Sense dictates a simple answer to that question!CARRY ON!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamaneggs View Post
    Prior to my CPL,I didn't mind the trunk load-unload process because I knew for a fact that my life and the lives of my fellow citizens were worth the small hassle I had to go through! How would you feel if you were too lazy to go through "the hassle" and someone,or you,were the victim of a violent crime,and you were a witness to it?And could have prevented it?Common Sense dictates a simple answer to that question!CARRY ON!
    It doesn't stop me from OCing but I'd still much rather be able to carry in my car.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    I like that it will lead to unnecessary fear for the public, and thus more unnecessary police responses. When the police get tired enough of it, perhaps they will talk to the legislature, and maybe then, they will change the laws to eliminate this foolishness.

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    Regular Member jimd_21's Avatar
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    Move to a state that is "shall issue" or is "Constitutional Carry or Permit-less Carry", their is well paying jobs in those states. Less crime, and friendly people. :-)
    Beware of the Beast Within..... Under God one Nation will be returned to its Foundation!

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    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimd_21 View Post
    Move to a state that is "shall issue" or is "Constitutional Carry or Permit-less Carry", their is well paying jobs in those states. Less crime, and friendly people. :-)
    Michigan is "Shall Issue"
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...e=mcl-750-234d

    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234d.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    (c) A court.
    (d) A theatre.
    (e) A sports arena.
    (f) A day care center.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
    -snip-

    Possess means, among other things, to have under your control. So if a gun is in a case in your vehicle.... a vehicle you own/drove to get there and have the keys that allow access to that gun... you "possess" it.

    Premises means.... every bit of property... all of it... buildings, lawn, and parking lot.

    With a plain reading of the law (and I am NOT an attorney... just another schmuck reading the law) it appears to me that without a CPL or the owner's/his agent's permission it is illegal to have a gun of any kind (it says "firearm" not just pistol!) anywhere on the property of a place that has a liquor license.

    Please note that law also only deals with a place that has a liquor license... the store/gas station/whatever doesn't have to actually sell booze.. it just has to have the license so just because there isn't any booze for sale there that doesn't necessarily mean they don't have the license.

    Other folks might read that differently and, as always, the advice of an attorney is suggested.

    ^^^

    Above post is a must read for non-cpl OC. There are some [CV67PAT/1Adam12] who question the need to avoid Michigan Liquor Control Commission [MLCC] Licensee properties for non-cpl citizens with a properly *stored* firearm in transport mode. He notes [correctly] that there is no case law on this. So the question is - are you willing to chance getting jammed up *possibly* by a overzealous PD/DA? If you answer no, the safest bet is to park on the nearest public street and walk to the place in question.

    It pains me to quote the Q but if you can find a lawyer that says it is legal he can find a DA that says they will try to prosecute you for it none the less [paraphrasing here].
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 02-19-2012 at 01:45 AM. Reason: bold
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  24. #24
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    I'd like to see that argument.

    The law reads plainly enough, it says you shall not be on the premises.

    Its just a misdemeanor, but it will prohibit a CPL for 3 years.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    ^^^

    Above post is a must read for non-cpl OC. There are some [CV67PAT/1Adam12] who question the need to avoid Michigan Liquor Control Commission [MLCC] Licensee properties for non-cpl citizens with a properly *stored* firearm in transport mode. He notes [correctly] that there is no case law on this. So the question is - are you willing to chance getting jammed up *possibly* by a overzealous PD/DA? If you answer no, the safest bet is to park on the nearest public street and walk to the place in question.

    It pains me to quote the Q but if you can find a lawyer that says it is legal he can find a DA that says they will try to prosecute you for it none the less [paraphrasing here].
    I am aware there are some folks who suggest that if a person is legally "transporting" the firearm then, since it is legal to transport, it would be legal to possess a firearm on the premises of an establishment that has a liquor license because the firearm is in the process of being "transported"....

    However, I cannot find any exemption for "transport" in 750.234d (see the law in posts above) that would mean "transporting" is legal. After all 750.234d states ...

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    -and a list of exemptions follow but I do not see any exemption in that list for "transporting"....

    And, although I do not have any legal cite/link for this... which means it is my opinion only and I am NOT an attorney... if a person has control of the firearm (it's locked in your car, you know it is there, and you have the keys) then that fits the definition of "possess".... and even if a person is "transporting" a firearm they still "possess" it... and 750.234d says "shall not possess" but does NOT say ... "unless transporting". So, at least to me (again, my opinion), there isn't any need for case law to interpret what appears to be plain English black letter law.

    Again... that paragraph above is only my uneducated and definitely only my personal opinion since I am NOT an attorney... as always.. for legal advice seek legal counsel.
    Last edited by Bikenut; 02-19-2012 at 07:55 AM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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