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Thread: Legitimate source for WA case law info, especially as regards police powers

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    Legitimate source for WA case law info, especially as regards police powers

    I have seen a LOT of specious info here about case law in WA. frankly, it boggles my mind. that being said, anybody who makes legal decisions based on a post from an anonymous blogger ... well.. do the math

    That being said, i am providing a link for an EXCELLENT resource for WA case law. this is the periodical that is produced by literally the most powerful public attorneys in WA state, and is required reading for any police officer in WA state that wants to keep up on case law.

    THIS is a legitimate source.

    Fwiw, i've read nearly every issue. i might have missed one or two. probably about 100 issues or so.

    https://fortress.wa.gov/cjtc/www/ind...=137&Itemid=80

    btw, here are some good terry cases




    Illinois v. Wardlow, 528 U.S. 119 (2000) March ’00 LED:02 (U.S. Supreme Court holds that unprovoked, headlong flight at sight of police car by person in area known for heavy drug trafficking is “reasonable suspicion” under the “totality of the circumstances”)
    State v. Doughty, 170 Wn.2d 70 (2010) Nov. ‘10 LED:04 (Where the sole apparent basis for police officers’ labeling of a house as a “known drug house” was the neighbors’ reports of heavy short-stay traffic to the house, a suspect’s less-than-two-minute visit to that “known drug house” at 3:20 a.m. by a suspect unknown to police officers did not provide reasonable suspicion of drug crime and hence did justify a stop of the suspect’s car)
    Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266 (2000) May ‘00 LED:07 (U.S. Supreme Court holds that anonymous phone call regarding young man in plaid shirt at bus stop with a gun failed to meet the “reasonable suspicion” test, and therefore seizure and frisk was unlawful)
    State v. Hopkins, 128 Wn. App. 855 (Div. II, 2005) Oct. ’05 LED:09 (Where officers did not call back to get more details, citizen informant’s call on cell phone to report possible juvenile in possession of handgun was not shown, on the totality of the circumstances, to establish reasonable suspicion for Terry seizure of suspect, nor were there sufficient corroborating observations to support the Terry seizure)
    State v. Almanza-Guzman, 94 Wn. App. 563 (Div. I, 1999) June ’99 LED:13 (Division One holds that officers did not have “reasonable suspicion” to stop a man known to be in possession of a gun and suspected of being in violation of the law requiring that an alien with a gun have an alien firearm license – facts (1) that suspect’s primary language appeared to be Spanish and (2) that alien firearm licenses are rarely issued did not justify seizure for investigation.)
    Campbell v. DOL, 31 Wn. App. 833 (Div. I, 1982) Aug. '82 LED:04 (Conclusory statement to officer that driver of car going by is "drunk"
    Law Enforcement Legal Update - 9 Updated through July 25, 2011
    does not justify stop, nature of crime and alternative investigative options are factors in reasonableness-of-seizure determination)
    State v. Anderson, 51 Wn. App. 775 (Div. III, 1988) Oct. '88 LED:10 (Known citizen's action of pointing out car and making weaving gesture justified stop)
    State v. Jones, 85 Wn. App. 797 (Div. III, 1997) Aug. '97 LED:16 (Unknown driver of marked commercial vehicle was not a sufficiently reliable source, even though he had made an in-person report). But see State v. Lee, 147 Wn. App. 912 (Div. I, 2008) Feb. ’09 LED:11 (Corroborated citizen’s report constituted reasonable suspicion; Court questions part of the analysis in the Jones decision by Division Three)
    State v. Stroud, 30 Wn. App. 392 (Div. II, 1981) Feb. '81 LED:05 (Late hour, high-crime area not enough to justify stop)
    State v. Lyons, 85 Wn. App. 268 (Div. II, 1997) Aug. ’97 LED:18 (Holding that RCW 46.20.349 constitutionally authorizes stop of vehicle based on reasonable suspicion that registered owner of MV has revoked or suspended driver’s license). But see State v. Penfield, 106 Wn. App. 157 (Div. III, 2001) Aug. ‘01 LED:12, which holds that, while a MV stop to check for the registered owner was permissible under the Lyons-type facts, the officer was not permitted to extend the stop to ask for ID when the reasonable suspicion evaporated once the officer noticed that the driver could not be the person identified by records as the registered owner. Note also the McKinney decision below Part II.A.9., where the Washington Supreme Court ruled that random license checks for warrants and other information on registered owners of MVs are lawful.
    State v. Barber, 118 Wn.2d 335 (1992) April '92 LED:02 (Officers should not make irrelevant statements about the person’s racial incongruity with the neighborhood)
    State v. Mitchell, 80 Wn. App. 143 (Div. I, 1995) March '96 LED:09 (Holding dangerous suspect at gun point not necessarily an arrest; case also addresses "reasonable suspicion" question regarding a handgun that a citizen was carrying in his hand while walking in a residential area)
    State v. Perea, 85 Wn. App. 339 (Div. II, 1997) June '97 LED:02 (Officer’s seven-day-old information about license suspension justified MV stop)

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    I have seen a LOT of specious info here about case law in WA. frankly, it boggles my mind. that being said, anybody who makes legal decisions based on a post from an anonymous blogger ... well.. do the math
    Ever hear the terms:

    Jailhouse Lawyer?
    Sea Lawyer?
    Barracks Lawyer?

    We are soon to see the addition of "Starbucks Lawyer" to the list


    Thanks for the source.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    I have seen a LOT of specious info here about case law in WA. frankly, it boggles my mind. that being said, anybody who makes legal decisions based on a post from an anonymous blogger ... well.. do the math

    That being said, i am providing a link for an EXCELLENT resource for WA case law. this is the periodical that is produced by literally the most powerful public attorneys in WA state, and is required reading for any police officer in WA state that wants to keep up on case law.

    THIS is a legitimate source.

    Fwiw, i've read nearly every issue. i might have missed one or two. probably about 100 issues or so.

    https://fortress.wa.gov/cjtc/www/ind...=137&Itemid=80

    btw, here are some good terry cases
    I'm supposed to take your advice on the law?

    You can't use proper capitalization or punctuation. It boggles my mind how you can understand case law, if you can't write properly.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    I'm supposed to take your advice on the law?

    You can't use proper capitalization or punctuation. It boggles my mind how you can understand case law, if you can't write properly.

    Live Free or Die!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    I'm supposed to take your advice on the law?

    You can't use proper capitalization or punctuation. It boggles my mind how you can understand case law, if you can't write properly.

    i realize you are trolling, but for the record...

    i CAN use proper punctuation and capitalization. in blog posts, i CHOOSE not to. consider it a tribute to ee cummings.

    also, i am not telling anybody to take my legal advice. i am simply offering , when i do, MY legal opinion. on a RKBA/OC blog, that is par for the course.

    i strongly suggest people follow the famous dictum "trust, but verify". iow, go to source documents and credible references to confirm or refute that which you doubt, or are unsure of.

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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    nice reference, I also use this, but a good part of the citations are to articles that are not public records. The articles written by lawyers are behind pay-to-read walls. The material is also often not case law, but a lawyer's opinion, versus quotes from actual findings from the various courts.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    i realize you are trolling, but for the record...

    i CAN use proper punctuation and capitalization. in blog posts, i CHOOSE not to. consider it a tribute to ee cummings.

    also, i am not telling anybody to take my legal advice. i am simply offering , when i do, MY legal opinion. on a RKBA/OC blog, that is par for the course.

    i strongly suggest people follow the famous dictum "trust, but verify". iow, go to source documents and credible references to confirm or refute that which you doubt, or are unsure of.
    Well, it takes a troll to know a troll, or something like that. You insult everyone by stating bullc rap is being spread on this forum, then expect us to help you find sources. Smooth, real smooth.

    First off, welcome to the internet. This is not a blog, this is a forum. You have not made a blog post, you have created a thread.

    Blog: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/blog.php
    Forum: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/forum.php

    People WILL judge your level of intelligence education based on how well you communicate -- and follow the rules of the English language. Sorry, but that's the brutal fact. The might also judge you by how well you understand this medium of communication (the internet), and how accurately you use internet related terminology.

    From what I have seen, forum members here (on opencarry.org) are generally FAR better at supporting their opinions by citing relevant case law or RCWs than participants of other gun forums. That's my opinion based on personal experience. There's no WAG or FUD being spread here, for the most part anyways

    Want a good source? http://www.lexisnexis.com/en-us/home.page

    Want a free source? http://www.findlaw.com/

    Want another free source? http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/

    Or go the UW law library.

    Have a great night

  8. #8
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    i CAN use proper punctuation and capitalization. in blog posts, i CHOOSE not to. consider it a tribute to ee cummings.
    I know this is ironic and funny, I'm just trying to decide how much.
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 02-18-2012 at 09:51 PM.

  9. #9
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    I know this is ironic and funny, I'm just trying to decide how much.
    A meaning of irony that I like is ignorance feigned to make a point.

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    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    The LED are great for information but you have to learn to extract the "case law" from the "LED Editorial comments" Many times there are interpretations of the case law and how it is applied to LE, in their view. Many departments have a monthly meeting with their prosecutor who goes through the LED and chooses their interpretation of the new case law and how it applies to them. So the LED is a great place for info, but not an end all and be all, and definitely do not cite the LED comments as case law.

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    The led is produced from the wa attorney general's office

    Quote Originally Posted by MadHatter66 View Post
    The LED are great for information but you have to learn to extract the "case law" from the "LED Editorial comments" Many times there are interpretations of the case law and how it is applied to LE, in their view. Many departments have a monthly meeting with their prosecutor who goes through the LED and chooses their interpretation of the new case law and how it applies to them. So the LED is a great place for info, but not an end all and be all, and definitely do not cite the LED comments as case law.
    of course. but remember this.

    THE LED IS PRODUCED by... wait for it... members of the WA state Attorney General's office

    the AG is, in WA, literally THE attorney, so to speak.

    consider that if you are talking about WA state law, and the AG's office gives an opinion, that is likely given a LOT LOT LOT of weight by local prosecutors, etc.

    it is also published as "a service to criminal justice practitioners"

    what does that mean? it means it's produced FOR LEO's and prosecuting attorneys, and it is given a LOT of weight in their training, and in both cases of LEO's and prosecuting attorneys, they rely on it as their PRIMARY document as to what the current state of case law *is* in the state of WA

    if a LEO does something CONTRARY to the LED, it is going to be looked at as automatically suspect to say the least.

    some LEO's are more diligent than others in reading the thing every month, but there is literally no better source in the state of WA for what the LEGAL expectations are for LAW ENFORCEMENT

    and law enforcement officers ARE the front line for how our penal code is enforced and how our constitution is recognized when the rubber hits the road

    if you know the case law AS PER THE LED, you can be pretty confident. because if a cop acts contrary to stuff published in the LED in regards to YOU, you will almost certainly have a solid path for redress and he will almost certainly be viewed as wrong

    you cannot, thus, get a better document to read in terms of case law, specifically how it affects WA state LEO practices and prosecuting attorney decisions

  12. #12
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post

    You can't use proper capitalization or punctuation. It boggles my mind how you can understand case law, if you can't write properly.
    Who knows, maybe he's just typing with his thumbs on his Smart Phone

    If grammar and composition skills were a requirement for Forums there'd be far fewer posts and less discourse.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  13. #13
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post

    You can't use proper capitalization or punctuation. It boggles my mind how you can understand case law, if you can't write properly.
    Who knows, maybe he's just typing with his thumbs on his Smart Phone

    If grammar and composition skills were a requirement for Forums there'd be far fewer posts and less discourse.


    I remember meeting a guy once that dressed like he went to the back door of Goodwill and took the rejects. His grammar wasn't all that good either. Then a friend of mine, who was this guy's Lawyer, told me he owned a building in the Seattle Belltown area that took up a complete city block, free and clear. So much for judging on appearance and grammar.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Who knows, maybe he's just typing with his thumbs on his Smart Phone

    If grammar and composition skills were a requirement for Forums there'd be far fewer posts and less discourse.


    I remember meeting a guy once that dressed like he went to the back door of Goodwill and took the rejects. His grammar wasn't all that good either. Then a friend of mine, who was this guy's Lawyer, told me he owned a building in the Seattle Belltown area that took up a complete city block, free and clear. So much for judging on appearance and grammar.
    I knew a guy once that got tossed out of restaurants on a regular basis jeans with holes in them, flip flops and badly faded Luau shirts, he was in the top 50 for wealth in kalifornia at the time.

    Remember some of us in a professional setting hire people to spell etc for us. If you get the meaning of what someone is attempting to say then whats the big deal? Learn to deal with it.
    Last edited by Jeff Hayes; 02-19-2012 at 10:51 AM.

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    Regular Member Lammo's Avatar
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    Back to the purpose (AFAICT) of the OP - - a great resource when you want/need an outline of confession, search, seizure, and arrest law in WA can be found in the Washington Association of Prosecuting Attorney's manual, oddly enough titled "Confession, Search, Seizure and Arrest". The current version can be found here:

    http://www.waprosecutors.org/MANUALS...ONFESSIONS.pdf

    The manual is usually updated and a new version posted each May although a major case law change along the lines of Arizona v. Gant can lead to an earlier revision. The author is a veteran prosecutor (Kitsap Co., IIRC) and top notch appellate attorney. Whenever I have to respond to a motion I always go to the manual first and then follow up with my own Westlaw search.

    As always: IAALBIAAFTDPASNIPHCBCALA*



    * I Am A Lawyer But I Am A Full Time Deputy Prosecuting Attorney So Nothing I Post Here Can Be Construed As Legal Advice.
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