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Thread: examiner.com - Virginia gun rights group lays siege to ‘castle bills’

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    examiner.com - Virginia gun rights group lays siege to ‘castle bills’

    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...o-castle-bills

    SNIP

    . . .

    The state’s largest gun rights group known as the Virginia Citizens Defense League (VCDL) decide to oppose all of the castle bills being considered this year.

    On Wednesday February 15th VCDL President Philip Van Cleave alerted his members that the League had changed its position on all castle bills “from NEUTRAL to STRONGLY OPPOSE” and urged gun owners to demand that legislators vote against all castle doctrine bills. . . . By Friday night, two days after VCDL decided to lay siege to the castle bills, two of the four bills, HB 925 and SB 64, lay dead or dying in committee, and the other two passed out of committee under a sort of truce flag.

    . . .

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    what happens if the bill if one of the castle doctrine bills pass?

    okay lets say one of these english common laws bills pass. Then what? we will have the right to use deadly force in the home with immunity of liability. But now we won't have other rights possibly for using deadly force for self defense. so...

    what would be examples of self defense rights that we have now that we will lose with the current castle doctrines passing?


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    Quote Originally Posted by opencarrypalmtrees View Post
    okay lets say one of these english common laws bills pass. Then what? we will have the right to use deadly force in the home with immunity of liability. But now we won't have other rights possibly for using deadly force for self defense. so...

    what would be examples of self defense rights that we have now that we will lose with the current castle doctrines passing?

    Wait a minute! Who said one of the bills was an English common law bill?

    And, the whole point is that we don't know yet which protections we might lose or how we might be reducing protections with one of these bills. Another aspect of this is that we already have 950 years of legal protections embodied in our common law.

    Thus, the best thing to do is cancel everything until we can have a very thorough review during the summer break by one or more lawyers. And, not just any lawyers, but make it lawyers who are basically historians on law, know their craft thoroughly, and are committed to personal defense rights.

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    And that is what is being proposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Wait a minute! Who said one of the bills was an English common law bill?

    And, the whole point is that we don't know yet which protections we might lose or how we might be reducing protections with one of these bills. Another aspect of this is that we already have 950 years of legal protections embodied in our common law.

    Thus, the best thing to do is cancel everything until we can have a very thorough review during the summer break by one or more lawyers. And, not just any lawyers, but make it lawyers who are basically historians on law, know their craft thoroughly, and are committed to personal defense rights.
    VCDL is proposing exactly that and has had 3-4 of the best Virginia, 2nd Amendment lawyers looking at the proposed legislation. Too much is at risk to jump the shark on this one. Unintended consequences are a bitch.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...o-castle-bills

    SNIP

    . . .

    The state’s largest gun rights group known as the Virginia Citizens Defense League (VCDL) decide to oppose all of the castle bills being considered this year.

    On Wednesday February 15th VCDL President Philip Van Cleave alerted his members that the League had changed its position on all castle bills “from NEUTRAL to STRONGLY OPPOSE” and urged gun owners to demand that legislators vote against all castle doctrine bills. . . . By Friday night, two days after VCDL decided to lay siege to the castle bills, two of the four bills, HB 925 and SB 64, lay dead or dying in committee, and the other two passed out of committee under a sort of truce flag.

    . . .
    Good article, Mike!
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    Good article, Mike!
    Oh! Mike wrote it? Then I shall have to actually read it. Can't pass that up.

    (No harm buttering up the forum owners. )


    ETA: I read it. Demarche? Derogation? Do Examiner readers really know what those words mean? Where's my dictionary?
    Last edited by Citizen; 02-20-2012 at 01:40 AM.

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    Language is being added to these "castle doctrine" bills like this:

    "This section shall not be construed to limit, withdraw, or overturn any defense or immunity already existing in statutory or common law prior to the effective date of this law."

    Does this language like this "fix" these bills?

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    Quote Originally Posted by markand View Post
    Language is being added to these "castle doctrine" bills like this:

    "This section shall not be construed to limit, withdraw, or overturn any defense or immunity already existing in statutory or common law prior to the effective date of this law."

    Does this language like this "fix" these bills?
    Not really.

    First of all, its not like we've had a tremendous problem with citizens being sued or prosecuted in VA. There is one recent case, and if a reader knows it, I would ask the reader not to mention it because it can easily be twisted by anti-gunners and opponents of castle doctrine. Otherwise, it hasn't been a problem.

    Thus, proponents of these castle doctrine bills aren't really trying to fix anything, because there hasn't really been a problem. Thus, proponents of these castle doctrine bills must be in it for some other reason--maybe a gun rights organization trying to boost its street cred among gun owners, maybe looking for more donations, who knows. Maybe some worried folks don't really understand there hasn't really been a problem with this. Or, maybe some crowd just has this idea that they gotta have castle doctrine.

    So, we're in a golden situation where we can really think through all the angles--but only if we wait. For example, a bill that thoroughly codifies the existing castle doctrine gives judges and defense attorneys one place to go, rather than reading through a bunch of opinions and back-tracking through citations. So, why not take the time to fully research it and give it to them in one statute? Lots less likely for a court or defense attorney to miss a case and advocate weakly or rule incorrectly.

    And, why not give magistrates and cops one thoroughly researched statute they can refer to right after the incident. Who knows but maybe some homeowner won't be arrested or charged because something in the statute is clear whereas otherwise a cop might have to visit a law library to research cases to figure it out--which he won't do. He'd either arrest or hold off and turn it over to a prosecutor.

    These are not meant to be exhaustive arguments. Just some quick examples of why its better to wait and get it right.
    Last edited by Citizen; 02-21-2012 at 12:39 AM.

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    Bad Castle Doctrine stopped in its tracks!

    Originally Posted by peter nap

    OK....looks like both bills are dead now:

    HB48
    02/23/12 House: Senate substitute rejected by House 12105463D-H1 (2-Y 97-N)
    02/23/12 House: VOTE: REJECTED (2-Y 97-N)
    Looks like we did our job! Message was delivered.

    From post #194 forward:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...VIRGINIA/page8
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    As I'm sure everyone is aware, VA Democrats are attempting to hold the state budget hostage to win back power in the evenly split state Senate. If successful, the makeup of some Senate committees could change by the next legislative cycle. Any thoughts this could impact our ability to get a comprehensive Castle Doctrine bill passed next year?

    I've consistently agreed with those who felt that this was the year to strike rather than kicking the can down the road and continuing to study the matter while hoping to craft the "perfect" bill. That '95% solution' Hawes draft may still prove to have been where VCDL's energies should have been directed--this year--rather than the ineloquent flip-flop from neutral to oppose.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911 Enthusiast View Post
    As I'm sure everyone is aware, VA Democrats are attempting to hold the state budget hostage to win back power in the evenly split state Senate. If successful, the makeup of some Senate committees could change by the next legislative cycle. Any thoughts this could impact our ability to get a comprehensive Castle Doctrine bill passed next year?

    I've consistently agreed with those who felt that this was the year to strike rather than kicking the can down the road and continuing to study the matter while hoping to craft the "perfect" bill. That '95% solution' Hawes draft may still prove to have been where VCDL's energies should have been directed--this year--rather than the ineloquent flip-flop from neutral to oppose.
    Nobody likes to loose their power - when all else is done and there is nothing else left, the budget will get worked out.

    The 2013 efforts to build upon the 2A successes of this year are already under way - the momentum will continue, especially with Castle Doctrine.

    Being adaptable and working all avenues is a positive trait IMO and does not constitute flipping or flopping. Much blood, sweat and tears lay in the wake of of this........and it ain't over yet. The bottom line is what counts and we did the job of leading the horse(s) to water - they (GA) were a little too slow to drink.

    This year there was some Kool-Aid on the table; next year I predict champagne.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I am just so relieved that those bills got derailed.

    What's the worst that could happen? We'd be stuck with the common law we've already got! A statute is a "nice to have" for a number of reasons, but it's not essential. We've still got the best set of personal defense laws in the country.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member mk4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    We've still got the best set of personal defense laws in the country.
    It also helps to have the best attorneys to assure that lawful exercise of personal defense is upheld and defended. ;-)

    Cheers to you, Sir!
    “For life, liberty and Little Lizzie.” - John Connor (2005)

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911 Enthusiast View Post
    As I'm sure everyone is aware, VA Democrats are attempting to hold the state budget hostage to win back power in the evenly split state Senate. If successful, the makeup of some Senate committees could change by the next legislative cycle. Any thoughts this could impact our ability to get a comprehensive Castle Doctrine bill passed next year?

    I've consistently agreed with those who felt that this was the year to strike rather than kicking the can down the road and continuing to study the matter while hoping to craft the "perfect" bill. That '95% solution' Hawes draft may still prove to have been where VCDL's energies should have been directed--this year--rather than the ineloquent flip-flop from neutral to oppose.
    Jeez. Has the second-guessing already begun?

    Nevermind the fact that we've got some very excellent protections in the existing law, almost entirely because we are a state with a common-law heritage, unlike Utah, Nevada, Colorado, etc. (territories that were not part of the original 13 and became states later.) The misleadingly titled "castle doctrine" bills are basically guilding the lily. If we do nothing, we still have the lily.
    Last edited by Citizen; 02-24-2012 at 07:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Jeez. Has the second-guessing already begun?

    Nevermind the fact that we've got some very excellent protections in the existing law, almost entirely because we are a state with a common-law heritage, unlike Utah, Nevada, Colorado, etc. (territories that were not part of the original 13 and became states later.) The misleadingly titled "castle doctrine" bills are basically guilding the lily. If we do nothing, we still have the lily.
    Agreed!

    Anyone second-guessing needs to read user's most recent draft, the one with 50+ pages of commentary... and then *stop* second-guessing. The killed bills did nothing to help us and some would have caused much damage.
    “For life, liberty and Little Lizzie.” - John Connor (2005)

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    Founder's Club Member Skeptic's Avatar
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    So how are we going to get a castle doctrine passed next year if Bob McD is tapped for Veep and the Lt. Gov becomes the Governor? Is there a provision for filling a vacancy in the Lt Governor's Office?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
    So how are we going to get a castle doctrine passed next year if Bob McD is tapped for Veep and the Lt. Gov becomes the Governor? Is there a provision for filling a vacancy in the Lt Governor's Office?
    Well...the Lt Gov won't be Governor and the way to pass it is to start now and convince the Legislators of the need and validity of Dan's bill.
    Better worry about filling the AG's office.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Well...the Lt Gov won't be Governor and the way to pass it is to start now and convince the Legislators of the need and validity of Dan's bill.
    Better worry about filling the AG's office.
    Dan would make a fabulous AG, but would be irreplaceable as a private, citizen accessible attorney.

    Predict that Gov. Bob will get some token job - ambassador to Northern Slabolvia? Lt. Gov will revert to fund raising and private practice.

    Who for AG? - wonder who Ken C. would recommend?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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