How to tell if you are actually trespassing

So you may have read the title and be thinking I must be an idiot to not know, but keep reading.

I was attending my kids basketball game this Saturday, just like have for the past 5 weeks at the Baptist Church gym where the league plays. I am not a member of the church, it's just that my kids play in the Upward league there. Just like I have for the last 5 weeks of games and practices I was OC. This week a couple of older guys were standing by the front door of the gym when I walked in and they stopped me and said that I can't bring my gun in the gym. I asked them why that was, it's not illegal. One replied that it was illegal, so I asked him to list the statute that made it illegal to which he said we could go across the street to the sheriff station and they could tell me. He also said I couldn't carry into Walmart this way either, so I knew he was pretty ignorant.

Obviously dealing with this person wasn't going to go anywhere because the law is whatever he thought it was, I asked him if he considered me trespassing at this point. They said no, but I can't bring in my gun. They said they were members of the church (to which I interpreted they were saying they were board members, as opposed to just random attendees) and I needed to store my weapon in the car. So, now back to my question, the guys were standing in the lobby like a lot of other parents and guests, not wearing name tags or anything, and I don't attend the church so wouldn't know them from the next guy. How do you determine if someone in that situation has the authority to have you arrested for trespass?

To complete the story, I did store my weapon and watched the game, but not before the 2 guys tried to make nice and say they were are on the way to the Charlotte Gun Show, like guns, have CHP's, and if he could, he would carry 6 guns on him. I laughed at him, he probably thought because I enjoyed his comment, I laughed because I thought he was so dumb it was funny. Didn't have any fliers on me that day and forgot to mention that they should stop by the GRNC table and get educated.

Oh yeah, there are no signs posted on any doors, but you knew that already because I wouldn't have walked in OC if there were.

Look at it as if you were at wal-mart and one of the cashiers asked you to leave or a greeter, they are employees not an agent of the owner such as a manager or a department head who can speak directly for corporate. The same thing goes for elsewhere, if I am at a persons house for a get together and they have a friend come and ask me to leave I am still going to want to hear it from the owners mouth not some lackey that does not know the law.

I am going to be in the same boat in the next week or so, I have a kids birthday party to attend after the OC meet in clayton on the 10th, the house is right down the road. Alot of my fiancee's family are anti gun but some of them whose house we are going to are not as far as I know. However I can see one of the other relatives coming up and telling me I cannot have my gun on around the kids. Too which I am going to go ask her cousin who is a detective and firm believer in the second amendment, if I can have my firearm there if not then I will bid them good day and me, my fiancee, and my daughter will leave, simple as that.

Basically rule of thumb would be ask for the highest person up the ladder you can get whether it be in wal-mart, church, or a friends house and make sure you get a straight answer from someone in charge not someone who thinks they can speak for someone else. hope this helps.

dashowdy said:

Look at it as if you were at wal-mart and one of the cashiers asked you to leave or a greeter, they are employees not an agent of the owner such as a manager or a department head who can speak directly for corporate. The same thing goes for elsewhere, if I am at a persons house for a get together and they have a friend come and ask me to leave I am still going to want to hear it from the owners mouth not some lackey that does not know the law.

I am going to be in the same boat in the next week or so, I have a kids birthday party to attend after the OC meet in clayton on the 10th, the house is right down the road. Alot of my fiancee's family are anti gun but some of them whose house we are going to are not as far as I know. However I can see one of the other relatives coming up and telling me I cannot have my gun on around the kids. Too which I am going to go ask her cousin who is a detective and firm believer in the second amendment, if I can have my firearm there if not then I will bid them good day and me, my fiancee, and my daughter will leave, simple as that.

Basically rule of thumb would be ask for the highest person up the ladder you can get whether it be in wal-mart, church, or a friends house and make sure you get a straight answer from someone in charge not someone who thinks they can speak for someone else. hope this helps.

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If you wait for the highest person up the ladder to trespass you from Walmart, you are most likely ALREADY in violation, if one of the lower level employees has actually told you to leave. It is a much safer course of action to "leave," THEN escalate the call up the ladder. Otherwise, while you await, you stand the chance of having LE in position to remove you at the direction of an employee of the business. I would not expect that to be a good position to be in.



To address the OP, unless you are informed that you need to leave the premises, you would not be in violation. If in doubt as to the validity of the exact 'you must leave' from an unidentified individual, frankly, those questions would be best addressed outside the premises, IF the 'you must leave' was already spoken. If I were you in the church foyer or whatever it was, I would likely have asked the two men what their status in the church was. It is unclear from what you shared (and what you did know at the time) as to whether those two men were actually acting as agents of the property owner; i.e., the church. If they were simply members of the church, I do not believe that would give them 'agent' status in and of itself. But, if they were the two members of the church who were organizing the event, and who had beneficial possession by order of the church through a use agreement, then they are likely to be considered to be 'agent of the property owner.'

JMHO

I would make a point to go back to the church and give those guys a flyer,then I would tell them about this site. I talk to alot of so called pro gun people who claim to be pro OC but dont even know the laws.I think to them its in your vehicle type carry.

All I want is clarification from someone, other than someone who is not in any position to speak for the property owner, on whether or not I need to leave the property. I want too know who I am speaking with and what there position is, if it is sufficient then I will leave if I wish to speak to someone closer to the top then I will. But I am not going to tuck tale and run every time someone tells me I cant be somewhere. so if cashier in nursery wants me to leave I am immediately going to ask for a manager, If I was at church I want to speak with the pastor or whoever is a head of the board.

dashowdy said:

All I want is clarification from someone, other than someone who is not in any position to speak for the property owner, on whether or not I need to leave the property. I want too know who I am speaking with and what there position is, if it is sufficient then I will leave if I wish to speak to someone closer to the top then I will. But I am not going to tuck tale and run every time someone tells me I cant be somewhere. so if cashier in nursery wants me to leave I am immediately going to ask for a manager, If I was at church I want to speak with the pastor or whoever is a head of the board.

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If you pursue that course of action, then you should be preparing yourself for an LE encounter, and handcuffs.


It isn't whether they meet your perception of their position, it is whether that person meets the requirements of 'agent' in the eyes of the law.

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/ByArticle/Chapter_14/Article_22B.html

14‑159.13. Second degree trespass.

(a) Offense. – A person commits the offense of second degree trespass if, without authorization, he enters or remains on premises of another:

(1) After he has been notified not to enter or remain there by the owner, by a person in charge of the premises, by a lawful occupant, or by another authorized person; or

(2) That are posted, in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, with notice not to enter the premises.

(b) Classification. – Second degree trespass is a Class 3 misdemeanor. (1987, c. 700, s. 1; 1993, c. 539, s. 102; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c).)

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Are you willing to answer to a Class 3 Misdemeanor to await a manager? Do you feel up to figuring out if a cashier is NOT 'a lawful occupant, or another authorized person?' Is there case law that defines this for NC? The statute seems to give the latitude to the occupant or property owner, not to the person being told to leave.

your absolutely right I should probably just leave and take it up with them by phone, or email correspondence.

Here at the gym now, dropped off some flyers and talked to the guy running the program, who asked at the staff meeting of the church today since he needed the policy clarified. He asked for my name and number as the pastor of the church wants to explain the philosophy of the church. They believe that they fall under educational facility since they have a pre-school. I was starting to wonder about pre-school, any one know how to define an educational facility?

I let him know they should post signs if they really want to ban guns since I would never consider that the church gym falls under the educational facility law and had I not been OC the other day would still be carrying now and nobody would know it.

Don't frag me for asking for signs, he said they used to be posted but they took the signs down a while back. I just would prefer to not have an issue and know before I need to make an unexpected trip to my car, or expend any more money someplace that doesn't respect my rights.

REDFIVE48 said:

Here at the gym now, dropped off some flyers and talked to the guy running the program, who asked at the staff meeting of the church today since he needed the policy clarified. He asked for my name and number as the pastor of the church wants to explain the philosophy of the church. They believe that they fall under educational facility since they have a pre-school. I was starting to wonder about pre-school, any one know how to define an educational facility?

I let him know they should post signs if they really want to ban guns since I would never consider that the church gym falls under the educational facility law and had I not been OC the other day would still be carrying now and nobody would know it.

Don't frag me for asking for signs, he said they used to be posted but they took the signs down a while back. I just would prefer to not have an issue and know before I need to make an unexpected trip to my car, or expend any more money someplace that doesn't respect my rights.

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The fact that it has a preschool might be the deal breaker.I went to a church that had a school and it was posted. Im glad you shared the flyers though, at least it will educate someone else who just might decide OC is for them too.

I doubt the pre school fits either of these requirements. The word "school" is not the deal breaker. The legal definition of school is. Personally, I don't consider pre school or Sunday school anything to be concerned over. YMMV, IANAL, bla bla.


115C‑555. Qualification of nonpublic schools.
The provisions of this Part shall apply to any nonpublic school which has one or more of the following characteristics:
(1) It is accredited by the State Board of Education.
(2) It is accredited by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools.
(3) It is an active member of the North Carolina Association of Independent Schools.
(4) It receives no funding from the State of North Carolina. (1979, c. 506; 1981, c. 423, s. 1.)

http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_115C/GS_115C-555.html

14‑269.2. Weapons on campus or other educational property.
(a) The following definitions apply to this section:
(1) Educational property. – Any school building or bus, school campus, grounds, recreational area, athletic field, or other property owned, used, or operated by any board of education or school board of trustees, or directors for the administration of any school.
(1a) Employee. – A person employed by a local board of education or school whether the person is an adult or a minor.
(1b) School. – A public or private school, community college, college, or university.


http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-269.2.html

Thanks Chief - I believe you are correct mainly because section 115C is titled Elementary and Secondary School, with a common definition of elementary school being the first 4 to 8 years of instruction, including kindergarten.

I believe they are misinformed, and they actually fall under section 110-106 Religious Sponsored Child Care Facility

That in conjunction with the Educational property definition should cover the issue.

Just getting all my talking points in order in prep for if the pastor calls me to talk.

Unlike my church that teaches up to 6th grade currently. It's been slightly comical because I have been coaching Upwards Basketball for the past 4yrs and have only had a handful of parents ever ask me about my empty holster but dozens of kids ask about it. I had this one kid say "hey dude, you ever smoke someone "...lol. I almost died laughing.

dashowdy said:

I am going to be in the same boat in the next week or so, I have a kids birthday party to attend after the OC meet in clayton on the 10th, the house is right down the road. Alot of my fiancee's family are anti gun but some of them whose house we are going to are not as far as I know. However I can see one of the other relatives coming up and telling me I cannot have my gun on around the kids. Too which I am going to go ask her cousin who is a detective and firm believer in the second amendment, if I can have my firearm there if not then I will bid them good day and me, my fiancee, and my daughter will leave, simple as that.

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So you're just going to show up at your fiance's family's kids birthday party OC without knowing ahead of time their stance on guns or whether they're comfortable with you OC? You already know some of the family are likely going to take issue with your gun. Personally I think that's pretty rude of you to not clear it first. Instead you're going to take your child there, potentially cause a scene, and then make your daughter leave the party early because you would rather leave than respect the home owner's decision? Incredibly rude. Even if the property owner isn't against it, you know many others will be because you already stated they were anti gun. Why put your fiancé or her family in an uncomfortable position in the first place? Personally, I feel this is a situation where you're better off concealing or leaving it in your car. Otherwise maybe you should just drop your fiancé and daughter off and not attend yourself. If it was your house, that would be one thing, but it's not your house. Causing unneeded tension between you, your fiancé and her family isn't cool IMHO.

So went back this weekend for the final game, and now the gym is posted on every door. While I hate to see another building posted, I would prefer it posted if they are actually going to be asking you to store your firearm as a matter of policy. It's not my church so it doesn't affect me anymore, hopefully they will get an earful from the members of the congregation and they will re-evaluate their policy. As I stood there empty holster, one of the basketball refs came up to me and started asking about what I carried. He said I could carry in their to which I then had to correct him and say it is now posted against. He was mentioning about a meeting the group had and someone said there was a guy who was wearing a .45 on their hip like it was a big deal, his response was 'so what'. Gave him the website, hope we will see him on here one day.