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Thread: "Paper Protection" requests EXPLODE -- endangering gun rights

  1. #1
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    "Paper Protection" requests EXPLODE -- endangering gun rights

    When Yeardley Love was discovered dead, then George Huguely was arrested for murder, I expected some kind of over reaction. Sure enough, with Delegate Bell and Senator Barker and the Crime Commission all getting involved, the result was a radical change in Virginia's laws on Protective Orders. Now as I expected, the floodgates are open, and neighbors are getting P.O.'s for such reasons as barking dogs and contractors not being paid.

    Well, if someone on the planet has sworn a P.O. against YOU, you cannot purchase a firearm or carry a handgun concealed.
    It's only going to get worse:

    Protective order requests explode with new Virginia law
    Virginia residents by the hundreds — some frightened, some angry — have flocked to their local courthouse in recent months to get a protective order under a new provision of state law.

    The volume of applications for protective orders in Virginia has soared since the new law that makes them much easier to get — removing obstacles that formerly existed for non-family members — went into effect July 1.

    A total of 2,015 full protective orders and 4,941 emergency protective orders were granted during the first six months of the new law, from July 1, 2011, to Dec. 31, 2011. By comparison, only 141 full protective orders and 272 emergency protective orders were granted during the same six-month period in 2010, state figures show.

    The motivation for last year's change in state law was the nationally publicized death of University of Virginia student Yeardley Love, whose ex-boyfriend, George W. Huguely V, is on trial now in Charlottesville on a first-degree murder charge in her 2010 death. A number of high-profile cases of domestic violence in the Richmond area also fueled concern.

    In expanding the law, Virginia legislators approved sweeping changes that focused not just on dating relationships, but on any violent, forceful or threatening behavior that results in injury or places one at reasonable risk of death, sexual assault or injury — regardless of the relationship. That has opened up the protective order process to just about anyone who alleges abuse or threats of violence.

    In one Richmond case, a resident tried to get a protective order against a neighbor who had placed a dead fish on her front stoop. In another, a woman who was embroiled in a long-standing dispute with a neighbor sought a protective order against the man for blowing leaves into her yard.

    In a Fairfax case, a man who hired a contractor to do some work filed a protective order against the contractor after refusing to pay him. The contractor wanted to be paid, "and the guy didn't want to pay him and wanted him to quit calling him," said Fairfax County General District Court Clerk Nancy Lake.

    "There are a lot of cases where people seem somewhat threatened, but it has to be more than a scary situation," Lake explained. "What you get a lot … is just people displaying terribly bad behavior, but they are not making a direct threat."

  2. #2
    Regular Member Mayhem's Avatar
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    I cannot believe a judge would issue it for this crap.

    These cases do not even identify any threat and it is just a way to keep the people away.

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    Judges are NOT known for being intelligent

    If you have ever been to court, you would not be surprised by the stupid things judges do in their kingdom, I mean court. Liberal judges are more dangerous to America than terrorists ever could be. On a daily basis, they return dangerous and violent criminals to the streets to prey on society.

    Pick any criminal court and spend the day. You will be disgusted to the point of not wasting your time to seek help from the “legal system”.

    Unfortunately, not all lawyers are like “User”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by va_tazdad View Post
    SNIP Liberal judges are more dangerous to America than terrorists ever could be. On a daily basis, they return dangerous and violent criminals to the streets to prey on society.
    Just a little sidenote for all readers. Not even particularly a contradiction. Just a reminder: if the judge is turning loose a bad guy on a technicality, the judge is doing his job. Those technicalities are what's left of our rights. In this sort of situation, the blame belongs on cops or prosecutor for screwing up the case.
    Last edited by Citizen; 02-21-2012 at 02:37 AM.

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    I'm waiting to see one where a nieghbor gets one against you because you carry and they have seen you carry.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    I wonder how many women have held up a copy of the protective order issued by the courts when they are being strangled by their estranged significants?

    It's a piece of paper. It doesn't "protect" anyone or anything.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    I'm waiting to see one where a nieghbor gets one against you because you carry and they have seen you carry.
    Yeah, that's coming. You just wait. How many Virginians OC when doing yard work? Now you blow leaves into your neighbor's yard. That's an overt act (that's for Dan).

    So, will that result in a P.O. because the neighbor is P.O.'d?

    What's really bad is advice on how to encourage the judge to amend a P.O. to include gun grabbing:
    Virginia state law specifically says that a person who has a Protective Order against them cannot buy or transport a gun (and there will be a warning on your PO form to your abuser that states this). Virginia state law also says that if your abuser has a concealed handgun permit, s/he must surrender it while your PO is in effect. However, it does not prohibit the person from having a gun.* To help make sure your abuser's gun(s) is taken away, there are a couple steps you can take:

    1. If your abuser has a gun, tell the judge how many guns he has, and if he has ever threatened you with a gun(s).

    2. Ask a judge to specifically write in your PO that your abuser cannot have a gun in his possession while the order is in effect. The judge can order any relief that s/he believes is necessary to protect you from your abuser. On the PO form, additional orders can be written in the lines provided above the expiration date.

    3. Before leaving the courthouse, check to make sure that the gun restriction is written on your order, if the judge agrees to order the guns taken away.

    It also may be helpful if the judge explains what will happen to the abuser's guns, who will take them, and where they will be held once you leave the courthouse. If the judge agrees to add language that your abuser cannot keep his guns while the PO is in effect, you may also want to ask that the judge:

    * Require your abuser to give his guns to the police, or require the police to go to the abuser's house and get them.
    * Make it clear to both you and the abuser how long the guns will be kept away from your abuser.

    Order that the police notify you when the guns are returned to your abuser. (Americans for Gun Safety; "Domestic Violence and Guns: A Guide to Laws that can Remove Guns from a Domestic Abuser." Available here.)

    * (Va. Code §18.2-308.1:4)

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    Regular Member WOD's Avatar
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    Seriously Disturbing!

    Are you (Virginia Residents) going to let this happen? I would be seeking information as to appellate challenges, and pushing this to a higher court, or contacting my legislative reps to get this thing looked at.

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    Almost seems too hard to believe. A guy gets into an argument with his girlfriend and next thing he knows - the police show up to seize his firearms!

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Just one more disturbing example of the times.
    It used to be considered "Trailer Park" to call the Cops over domestic squabbles. Now it's the thing to do.

    There was a bill in the GA this year that I didn't pay much attention to, that upgraded the offense to strangle your significant other. While my wife has often considered strangling me, I never figured it was the Courts Business...besides, I usually deserved it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by va_tazdad View Post
    If you have ever been to court, you would not be surprised by the stupid things judges do in their kingdom, I mean court. Liberal judges are more dangerous to America than terrorists ever could be. On a daily basis, they return dangerous and violent criminals to the streets to prey on society.

    Pick any criminal court and spend the day. You will be disgusted to the point of not wasting your time to seek help from the “legal system”.

    Unfortunately, not all lawyers are like “User”.
    Thank you for that distinction. And this is a procedure I have always said everyone should go through. It takes a few days, but everyone should sit through a morning of court in both the General District and Circuit Courts, and do civil one day and criminal one day in each, and preferably watch cases both with and without juries. It's the civics lesson you didn't get in high school. If you only have one day you can take off from work, sit through the traffic and misdemeanor docket in the General District Court. The most important thing the legislature does, in my opinion, is judicial selection, and that is just about the loosey-goosiest political charade that goes on. I don't object to people picking judges in part because of their politics, you understand, between two well-qualified, intellectually honest, and competent attorneys, one may be friendlier to the local delegation than the other. No problem for me. The problem arises when political friendships forms the only basis for selection. There are some very, very good judges in Virginia, and some that use the system to further their own personal agenda at the cost of both honest application of the law and the public perception of the integrity of their government.

    The best hedge against bad judges is the information citizens have about what actually goes on in courtrooms. I think everyone ought to go sit in and watch.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    Yeah, that's coming. You just wait. How many Virginians OC when doing yard work? Now you blow leaves into your neighbor's yard. That's an overt act (that's for Dan).So, will that result in a P.O. because the neighbor is P.O.'d? ...
    That's right. And after that "overt act toward the occupant", well, the punch line of the joke I'm thinking of is, "then drag the body back inside the house."
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Just a little sidenote for all readers. Not even particularly a contradiction. Just a reminder: if the judge is turning loose a bad guy on a technicality, the judge is doing his job. Those technicalities are what's left of our rights. In this sort of situation, the blame belongs on cops or prosecutor for screwing up the case.
    Good point! And, if I may extend it, I would observe that everyone who is convicted of a criminal offense is convicted on the basis of technicalities. The criminal law is nothing BUT technicalities. And, in my experience, the main reason people are found "not guilty" is because the cops charged someone with a crime who really and truly was, "not guilty", and the magistrates and prosecutors act like the cops' servants.

    And, while I'm rambling, I'll add this other thought: the main reason people accept plea deals is not because they're actually guilty of whatever it is they're charged with (i.e., the specific statement on the summons or warrant), but because they feel bad about something they did. They feel ashamed and guilty and are therefore afraid. So they take the bait. They almost never get a good analysis of what's going on from their attorneys (many of whom are what I call "plea bargain factories" - they charge like they're going to prepare for trial and go to trial and try to win, never do any of that, and only act as the prosecutor's messenger with the plea deal).
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Just one more disturbing example of the times.
    It used to be considered "Trailer Park" to call the Cops over domestic squabbles. Now it's the thing to do.

    There was a bill in the GA this year that I didn't pay much attention to, that upgraded the offense to strangle your significant other. While my wife has often considered strangling me, I never figured it was the Courts Business...besides, I usually deserved it.
    And, in order to discourage such calls, the cops often arrest someone for no good reason, and tell everyone involved that they are legally required to make an arrest when there is such a call (total hogwash). Then, in some counties, the prosecutors tell the other spouse that she (almost always a "she") is required to testify exactly as they instruct her, or she will be charged with perjury, false report, and obstruction of justice, and she will go to jail. This is illegal (extortion, subornation of perjury), and I've brought the matter to the attention of the Virginia State Bar, and I've filed one case to have a conviction thrown out on the basis of fraud on the court. The answer I got was sort of, "Well, that's what prosecutors do. Live with it." This is particularly bad in Stafford County, but I've heard horror stories from other counties as well.

    And, Peter Nap, if you'd eat only what Jane tells you to, she wouldn't have to strangle you!
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    I'd like to see someone like All American Nightmare file for a P.O. against the Richmond PD.






    Well, a man can dream, can't he!

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Imagine if the Brady folks get hold of this law in VA...

    With newspapers publishing lists of people with CHPs, the Anti's could file for POs against everyone with a CHP.

    I see the potential for a MASSIVE class-action suit in the future against the VA government, newspapers, and maybe even soem judges being filed with Federal Civil rights violation suits.

    This could potentially become VERY messy...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverrat10k View Post
    I'd like to see someone like All American Nightmare file for a P.O. against the Richmond PD.
    Take from Dreamer's "suggestion" (for lack of better term) what if HUNDREDS of people filed for protective orders against the Richmond PD?

    Make it a class action suit of protective orders and DISARM ALL OF THEM without due process.

    See how they like it. Maybe they'd change their tune then?

    I wonder if you could get the ACLU or even the SLRC?
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Imagine if the Brady folks get hold of this law in VA...

    With newspapers publishing lists of people with CHPs, the Anti's could file for POs against everyone with a CHP.

    This could potentially become VERY messy...
    You know that's coming. Just a matter of time.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Imagine if the Brady folks get hold of this law in VA...

    With newspapers publishing lists of people with CHPs, the Anti's could file for POs against everyone with a CHP.

    I see the potential for a MASSIVE class-action suit in the future against the VA government, newspapers, and maybe even soem judges being filed with Federal Civil rights violation suits.

    This could potentially become VERY messy...
    How do you get an OP to prohibit someone who may lawfully engage in an activity from engaging in same? And how could such an order be enforced? If everyone (with a CHP) were CCing, how would anyone know?
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  20. #20
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    How do you get an OP to prohibit someone who may lawfully engage in an activity from engaging in same? And how could such an order be enforced? If everyone (with a CHP) were CCing, how would anyone know?

    CCing wouldn't be an issue--when they serve you with the PO, they just confiscate all your firearms at the same time, and they also revoke (or suspend) your CHP for the duration of the PO.

    And if you think they don't have a list of EVERY firearm you've ever bought where an FFL was involved in the transaction, you are sadly mistaken.

    Private sales and "tragic boating accidents" are going to become VERY common in VA in the near future, I believe... ;-)
    Last edited by Dreamer; 02-23-2012 at 05:20 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  21. #21
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    And don't be surprised in places like Richmond start to adopt NYC and Philly-style "stop and frisk" programs. After all, these programs have worked SOOOOO well in the Big Apple and Philly to deter crime...

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/op...pagewanted=all

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/10/2...es-tactic.html

    http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011...crime-frisking

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1121595.html

    http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...REE/110909963#
    Last edited by Dreamer; 02-23-2012 at 05:41 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  22. #22
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    CCing wouldn't be an issue--when they serve you with the PO, they just confiscate all your firearms at the same time, and they also revoke (or suspend) your CHP for the duration of the PO.

    And if you think they don't have a list of EVERY firearm you've ever bought where an FFL was involved in the transaction, you are sadly mistaken.

    Private sales and "tragic boating accidents" are going to become VERY common in VA in the near future, I believe... ;-)
    But there is still the basic question:

    How do you get an OP to prohibit someone who may lawfully engage in an activity from engaging in same?

    What would be the basis for such an OP? Until you've done that, nothing else matters.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  23. #23
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    But there is still the basic question:

    How do you get an OP to prohibit someone who may lawfully engage in an activity from engaging in same?

    What would be the basis for such an OP? Until you've done that, nothing else matters.

    "Apprehended threats or danger"...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  24. #24
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    "Apprehended threats or danger"...
    Cite, please?
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  25. #25
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    Cite, please?

    The part of VA Statute that defines "acts of violence" that qualify for obtaining a PO/RO states:

    VA ST § 19.2-152.7:1


    An act of violence, force or threat means an act that involves violence, force, or threat that results in injury to the body or causes you a reasonable fear of death, sexual assault, or injury to the body. These acts could include things like forceful detention, stalking, criminal sexual assault, or any criminal offense that causes injury to the body or causes you reasonable fear of death, sexual assault, or injury to the body.
    A squirrely lawyer could easily transform an "anti's" insane holophobia into "reasonable fear", for the right price...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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