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Thread: 2 questions from a spokane OC&CC guy: Hoopfest / Church LOL!

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    Regular Member p85-GSXwheelman's Avatar
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    2 questions from a spokane OC&CC guy: Hoopfest / Church LOL!

    Just out of curiousity, I'm wondering if hoopfest is considered a "music festival" as described in the rcw? (don't remember which one) I love going with my daughter every year, and I seem to recall that the year I was in chicago during the event, there was a shooting. Id like to continue going....but I'm unsure if they somehow prohibit any kind of carry by having bands playing. Anyone know about this? Can I carry to hoopfest? Open or concealed?

    My other question is kinda funny and off the wall......does anyone carry at church? My gun/holster have become part of my wardrobe....if I'm wearing pants, I'm wearing my gun. I got some interesting looks at church with my daughter on Sunday tho..... is it unreasonable to carry in church? Thoughts? Hahahaaa

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by p85-GSXwheelman View Post
    Just out of curiousity, I'm wondering if hoopfest is considered a "music festival" as described in the rcw? (don't remember which one) I love going with my daughter every year, and I seem to recall that the year I was in chicago during the event, there was a shooting. Id like to continue going....but I'm unsure if they somehow prohibit any kind of carry by having bands playing. Anyone know about this? Can I carry to hoopfest? Open or concealed?

    My other question is kinda funny and off the wall......does anyone carry at church? My gun/holster have become part of my wardrobe....if I'm wearing pants, I'm wearing my gun. I got some interesting looks at church with my daughter on Sunday tho..... is it unreasonable to carry in church? Thoughts? Hahahaaa
    RCW definition of a Music Festival:

    RCW 70.108.020
    Definitions.For the purposes of this chapter the following words and phrases shall have the indicated meanings:

    (1) "Outdoor music festival" or "music festival" or "festival" means an assembly of persons gathered primarily for outdoor, live or recorded musical entertainment, where the predicted attendance is two thousand persons or more and where the duration of the program is five hours or longer: PROVIDED, That this definition shall not be applied to any regularly established permanent place of worship, stadium, athletic field, arena, auditorium, coliseum, or other similar permanently established places of assembly for assemblies which do not exceed by more than two hundred fifty people the maximum seating capacity of the structure where the assembly is held: PROVIDED, FURTHER, That this definition shall not apply to government sponsored fairs held on regularly established fairgrounds nor to assemblies required to be licensed under other laws or regulations of the state.

    (2) "Promoter" means any person or other legal entity issued a permit to conduct an outdoor music festival.

    (3) "Applicant" means the promoter who has the right of control of the conduct of an outdoor music festival who applies to the appropriate legislative authority for a license to hold an outdoor music festival.

    (4) "Issuing authority" means the legislative body of the local governmental unit where the site for an outdoor music festival is located.

    (5) "Participate" means to knowingly provide or deliver to the festival site supplies, materials, food, lumber, beverages, sound equipment, generators, or musical entertainment and/or to attend a music festival. A person shall be presumed to have knowingly provided as that phrase is used herein after he has been served with a court order.
    Doesn't sound like the hoop thing qualifies.

    As far as carrying in church, and this is just my myself personally, I carry everywhere I lawfully can ('cept work), but in any house of worship is some place I'd choose to cover up. There's no legal restriction on it in this state, but it just seems kind of crass to me. Like walking in wearing a T shirt that says "OBAMA SUCKS ASS" on it.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member p85-GSXwheelman's Avatar
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    Metalhead- so.....you're saying it doesn't sound like hoopfest counts? And itd most likely be okay to carry? Thanks for the rcw reference....although now I have a headache from trying to struggle through the technical mumbo jumbo. LOL
    And yea, on the church thing, I think that'd be my choice too. Covering up that is. Hopefully they don't kick me out....I've honestly gotten so used to OC'ing, I just woke up, got ready for the day, got dressed......and went....but then I noticed the old ladies glaring and kids pointing and thought quietly "oh damn it!"

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    Regular Member 1911er's Avatar
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    church

    Like walking in wearing a T shirt that says "OBAMA SUCKS ASS" on it.

    I want one of these shirts to wear to church. just kidding!!! When I do go to church I politely cover with a sports coat or other appropriate clothing.
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    Regular Member Freedom First's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by p85-GSXwheelman View Post
    Metalhead- so.....you're saying it doesn't sound like hoopfest counts? And itd most likely be okay to carry? Thanks for the rcw reference....although now I have a headache from trying to struggle through the technical mumbo jumbo. LOL
    And yea, on the church thing, I think that'd be my choice too. Covering up that is. Hopefully they don't kick me out....I've honestly gotten so used to OC'ing, I just woke up, got ready for the day, got dressed......and went....but then I noticed the old ladies glaring and kids pointing and thought quietly "oh damn it!"
    I had the same problem one day. I was taking my older kids to church and I completely forgot that I intended to CC while there. That was the day I discovered that you cannot tuck a Serpa under your t-shirt very well... Somehow, that millimeter or two of cloth doesnt make it look like anything other than a firearm. Oh well.
    Freedom can never be lost, only given away by ignorance, by choice, or at the point of a gun. Here in America we can still choose.

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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    Religion and gun's.

    I wish to have a discussion on this topic, not an exchange of insults, agreeing to disagree is the most likely end, but I would like to walk a bit and talk about this.

    Being armed is acceptable as long as you cover it up? A church is a private institution so restricting carry is permissible, but it is a voluntary association. Would it not make sense to find a place of worship that doesn't cause you to change your normal, legal behavior? In this and a couple other discussions lately the idea of cover up to (insert reason here) when the carrier is not legally required to seems to be at odds with normalizing (is that a word?) Open Carry. This is not to say that covering up cannot be someone's choice, I am curious as to what makes it a better choice, if it is not legally required.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitaeus View Post
    Religion and gun's.

    I wish to have a discussion on this topic, not an exchange of insults, agreeing to disagree is the most likely end, but I would like to walk a bit and talk about this.

    Being armed is acceptable as long as you cover it up? A church is a private institution so restricting carry is permissible, but it is a voluntary association. Would it not make sense to find a place of worship that doesn't cause you to change your normal, legal behavior? In this and a couple other discussions lately the idea of cover up to (insert reason here) when the carrier is not legally required to seems to be at odds with normalizing (is that a word?) Open Carry. This is not to say that covering up cannot be someone's choice, I am curious as to what makes it a better choice, if it is not legally required.
    I use the offensive T shirt analogy. There are many other behaviors that follow the same lines, that is, are perfectly legal and even acceptable to do else where but, in MY humble opinion, just don't belong in church. Cuss words, loud voices, etc. I wouldn't go to church wearing clothes that have been marinading in oil from working in my shop either. To me, that just seems crass. Yet those actions would all be "legal." You see where I'm coming from?

    About normalizing OC (yes that is a word), I think we also have to face the reality that, barring some massive social paradigm shift, we're never going to get everyone to accept it, at least not in one person's life time. Now myself, I'm Catholic, and the Church in America has a history of being rather anti-gun. This, however, is a local POLITICAL ideology and not a matter of official theology or Church doctrine. I am able to separate the two. Even when the Church is 100% wrong on political matters (as it often is ), that does not change or negate theological truth.

    Actually, the first place I ever carried at all (CC) was in church. I'm willing to have this discussion, as long as we keep it respectful & civilized, but perhaps we should move it to another thread or forum so as not to jack the new guy's thread any further.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by p85-GSXwheelman View Post
    Metalhead- so.....you're saying it doesn't sound like hoopfest counts? And itd most likely be okay to carry? Thanks for the rcw reference....although now I have a headache from trying to struggle through the technical mumbo jumbo. LOL
    And yea, on the church thing, I think that'd be my choice too. Covering up that is. Hopefully they don't kick me out....I've honestly gotten so used to OC'ing, I just woke up, got ready for the day, got dressed......and went....but then I noticed the old ladies glaring and kids pointing and thought quietly "oh damn it!"

    Correct. The primary purpose is B-ball, not music, right? Tho most likely, if it's in Seattle you'll be asked to leave if you OC.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member WOD's Avatar
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    I would try to find a website for Hoopfest, and see if there are any posted rules or policies on this topic. Or, if the promoters and their hired security have any information available. If not, there usually are contact numbers posted for more information, remember, it's OUR responsibility to know where we are lawfully allowed to go. For example, I recently visited Safeway and Giant Eagle grocers web pages to see if they had any postings listed on policy, rules, etc., to make sure I wasn't walking into an unpleasant situation.

    I am not a church goer, but, I am not a person who is unreasonable or confrontational by nature. Situational Awareness is my guidepost, in ANY place. Myself, out of respect for others, I would ask the Minister/Pastor/Priest/Sermon giver, if I could address the congregation (prior to - or afterward the service) and get their consensus whether to conceal or not. If it wasn't a church I was regularly attending, I would just CC. Respect and civility are what we are preaching here on this forum, so we need to practice both here in cyber space, as well as, the real world. I would do the same with any organized club, organization, membership group, because that is just how I was raised. That's my two cents.

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    Regular Member 911Grunt's Avatar
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    This is just information for the group…enjoy!

    http://gunsaint.com/history.asp

    The St. Gabriel Possenti Society promotes the public recognition of St. Gabriel Possenti, including his Vatican designation as Patron Saint of Handgunners.

    St. Gabriel Possenti was a Catholic seminarian whose marksmanship and proficiency with handguns single-handedly saved the village of Isola, Italy from a band of 20 terrorists in 1860.

    The Possenti Society offers a variety of materials related to St. Gabriel Possenti and a biblical understanding of self-defense.
    The Savior of Isola

    In 1860, a band of soldiers from the army of Garibaldi entered the mountain village of Isola, Italy. They began to burn and pillage the town, terrorizing its inhabitants.

    Possenti, with his seminary rector's permission, walked into the center of town, unarmed, to face the terrorists. One of the soldiers was dragging off a young woman he intended to rape when he saw Possenti and made a snickering remark about such a young monk being all alone.
    Possenti quickly grabbed the soldier's revolver from his belt and ordered the marauder to release the woman. The startled soldier complied, as Possenti grabbed the revolver of another soldier who came by. Hearing the commotion, the rest of the soldiers came running in Possenti's direction, determined to overcome the rebellious monk.

    At that moment a small lizard ran across the road between Possenti and the soldiers. When the lizard briefly paused, Possenti took careful aim and struck the lizard with one shot. Turning his two handguns on the approaching soldiers, Possenti commanded them to drop their weapons. Having seen his handiwork with a pistol, the soldiers complied. Possenti ordered them to put out the fires they had set, and upon finishing, marched the whole lot out of town, ordering them never to return. The grateful townspeople escorted Possenti in triumphant procession back to the seminary, thereafter referring to him as "the Savior of Isola".

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    I am of the opinion that they cannot legally restrict your legal carry at hoopfest. It's principle purpose is not music.

    Will the SPD give you grief? I have no idea, new (and hopefully not one of Bloombergs buddies like the last one) mayor, new COP, master of excessive force, Thompson, is off to jail. However: I will guarantee a large police pressence just like last year.

    Carry in Church? That, I would think has more to do with the particular congregation, and to some extent, denomination. My church is a small Lutheran congregation. OC or CC would probably be noticed as much as jeans and a T-shirt, or if it is more your style, a suit. We are a come as you are congregation...the message is what counts, not what you wear. I normally wear a jacket to church, so my carry is basically CC, unless I take the jacket off. Not sure if Pastor carries under his gown, or not?

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    The church I used to go to in Deer Park, I was the youth leader for five years or so and would OC to the Thursday night youth group, but conceal during Sunday morning services. The pastor (and a good number of the members) knew that I carried, and actually expressed appreciation for it. I did voluntarily conceal during the Sunday services because church should be a place where anyone can walk in off the street and feel welcome and safe, and sadly not everyone feels safe when someone they don't know is openly carrying a firearm. (I know that's the mindset we're fighting against here, but we're not there quite yet, and my duty to God is of higher importance to me than my duty to, say, the constitution, or even personal freedoms.)

    I guess my point is, I wouldn't worry quite so much about the little old ladies who give you the stink eye, but for the seekers who come in off the street and need God in their lives. With that, I'm going to head over to the "Religion and Open Carry" thread and see if there's room for my $.02. :-)

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    Regular Member Lammo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by p85-GSXwheelman View Post
    Metalhead- so.....you're saying it doesn't sound like hoopfest counts? And itd most likely be okay to carry? Thanks for the rcw reference....although now I have a headache from trying to struggle through the technical mumbo jumbo. LOL
    And yea, on the church thing, I think that'd be my choice too. Covering up that is. Hopefully they don't kick me out....I've honestly gotten so used to OC'ing, I just woke up, got ready for the day, got dressed......and went....but then I noticed the old ladies glaring and kids pointing and thought quietly "oh damn it!"
    Since Hoopfest is a street basketball tournament any music that may be going on is purely incidental and the music festival restriction would not apply. I personally don't go near downtown during Hoopfest but if I did I would not go unarmed. A few years ago there was a shooting involving a bunch of gang bangers. No one killed (I don't think anyone was even hit) but that's only because the little b@$t@rd$ don't know how to shoot.

    As for church, since I don't leave home without it and since my parish isn't in the best part of town I keep it covered rather than leaving it in the car. I think St. Gabriel Possenti would approve (LINK: http://gunsaint.com/).
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    Regular Member p85-GSXwheelman's Avatar
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    The two churches I most often attend are nazarene (in deer park so they probably wouldn't care) and a christian fellowship which I think has baptist "undertones" and is closer to town. Haha so I think I'll CC at church.

    And hoopfest, ehhhhh......I'll have to see. Kinda depends on if I'm feeing like "making the statement or JUST keepng me and my daughter from being victims of some spokane, felony-flats-dwelling, tweaker.

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    in re: seattle.

    remember this is the city where the mayor OPENLY defied the law, and the opinion of the attorney general and passed an 'executive order' (remind you of somebody?) to BAN HANDGUNS IN CITY PARKS, etc.

    and it was promptly shot down. no pun intended

    the city council of seattle is unabashedly progressive (in all the wrong ways), and let's be honest- their appointed police chief is a cop-o-crat ninny lackey for the mayor

    so, just remember this is a liberal enclave that HATES guns.

    individual officers of course will vary. from what i understand SPD has had the training on OC and SHOULD know "what's up" but if there is going to be a problem, it will come down from some cop-o-crat supervisor, the kind who ordered his troops to stand by and let people riot during mardi gras (resulting in kris kime's death) because having police on teevee hitting minorities with sticks would look bad for the city's image, or from the kind of cop-o-crat moron who woefully underprepared and equipped the city for WTO since 'riots can't happen here. it's seattle" (when they happened everywhere else the WTO went)

    i've never seen anybody OC at bumbershoot for example, but i'd love it if more people did. heck, we should organize a solidarity showing there next year

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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    in re: seattle.

    remember this is the city where the mayor OPENLY defied the law, and the opinion of the attorney general and passed an 'executive order' (remind you of somebody?) to BAN HANDGUNS IN CITY PARKS, etc.

    and it was promptly shot down. no pun intended

    the city council of seattle is unabashedly progressive (in all the wrong ways), and let's be honest- their appointed police chief is a cop-o-crat ninny lackey for the mayor

    so, just remember this is a liberal enclave that HATES guns.

    individual officers of course will vary. from what i understand SPD has had the training on OC and SHOULD know "what's up" but if there is going to be a problem, it will come down from some cop-o-crat supervisor, the kind who ordered his troops to stand by and let people riot during mardi gras (resulting in kris kime's death) because having police on teevee hitting minorities with sticks would look bad for the city's image, or from the kind of cop-o-crat moron who woefully underprepared and equipped the city for WTO since 'riots can't happen here. it's seattle" (when they happened everywhere else the WTO went)

    i've never seen anybody OC at bumbershoot for example, but i'd love it if more people did. heck, we should organize a solidarity showing there next year
    Palo et al; Hoopfest is the largest 3 on 3 basketball tournament in the nation and is an annual SPOKANE event that is held downtown. they shut down the streets for blocks and set up basketball courts. I would not hesitate to OC if I was going to the event, I would only OC if I had a good retention holster and training because you are in a large crowd of people. I OC 90% of the time but this might be a time I would CC just because of the shear number of people jammed into a very small area. Like Lammo I avoid downtown during Bloomsday, Pig Out at the Park and Hoopfest etc just too many people and too many streets blocked off for my taste.

    I have carried at Tea Party events down town and never had a problem with SPD.

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    Regular Member Lammo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WOD View Post
    I would try to find a website for Hoopfest, and see if there are any posted rules or policies on this topic. Or, if the promoters and their hired security have any information available. If not, there usually are contact numbers posted for more information, remember, it's OUR responsibility to know where we are lawfully allowed to go.

    SNIP
    Official web site: http://www.spokanehoopfest.net/

    The only rules they have govern player conduct. I did a search of the .pdf and the word "firearm" does not appear. The games are conducted on the streets of downtown Spokane so there would be no authority to restrict firearm possession by observers.
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    Regular Member Lammo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitaeus View Post

    Religion and gun's.

    SNIP
    Don't know about the rest of y'all (or should that be all y'all?) but I'm clinging to both.

    :-)
    IAALBIAAFTDPASNIPHCBCALA
    Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out. (John Corapi, The Black Sheep Dog)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lammo View Post
    Don't know about the rest of y'all (or should that be all y'all?) but I'm clinging to both.

    :-)
    I have a firm grip on both no clinging involved, LOL

  20. #20
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Hoopfest I would believe there is no restriction primary because it is not considered an outdoor music festival.
    Bumpershoot would be exempted if I read it correctly, "That this definition shall not apply to government sponsored fairs held on regularly established fairgrounds nor to assemblies required to be licensed under other laws or regulations of the state".

    RCW 70.108.150 Firearms — Penalty.
    It shall be unlawful for any person, except law enforcement officers, to carry, transport or convey, or to have in his possession or under his control any firearm while on the site of an outdoor music festival.
    Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars and not more than two hundred dollars or by imprisonment in the county jail for not less than ten days and not more than ninety days or by both such fine and imprisonment.

    RCW 70.108.020 Definitions.
    For the purposes of this chapter the following words and phrases shall have the indicated meanings:
    (1) "Outdoor music festival" or "music festival" or "festival" means an assembly of persons gathered primarily for outdoor, live or recorded musical entertainment, where the predicted attendance is two thousand persons or more and where the duration of the program is five hours or longer: PROVIDED, That this definition shall not be applied to any regularly established permanent place of worship, stadium, athletic field, arena, auditorium, coliseum, or other similar permanently established places of assembly for assemblies which do not exceed by more than two hundred fifty people the maximum seating capacity of the structure where the assembly is held: PROVIDED, FURTHER, That this definition shall not apply to government sponsored fairs held on regularly established fairgrounds nor to assemblies required to be licensed under other laws or regulations of the state.
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    Regular Member SnarlyWino's Avatar
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    As others have echo'd, I carry everywhere, all the time (where legal of course) and church is no exception. I care just as much to protect my church family as I do my own, and as we all know, churches are not imune to threats to life and limb. I have known my pastor for 20+ years and informed him before we started attending that I carry and he was all for it. As to my mode of carry, it just depends on how I am dressed. Some days OC, some days CC. People have asked the pastor about my carrying, and when he explains that he encourages it, suddenly they are OK with it too.
    Keep Calm and Carry On,

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  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnarlyWino View Post
    As others have echo'd, I carry everywhere, all the time (where legal of course) and church is no exception. I care just as much to protect my church family as I do my own, and as we all know, churches are not imune to threats to life and limb. I have known my pastor for 20+ years and informed him before we started attending that I carry and he was all for it. As to my mode of carry, it just depends on how I am dressed. Some days OC, some days CC. People have asked the pastor about my carrying, and when he explains that he encourages it, suddenly they are OK with it too.
    +1
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