Religion and Open Carry

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I would be interested in what Pistol-Packing-Preacher-in-PV's opinion is on carrying firearms, openly, while attending a church service.

I believe he preaches the word while armed, as well as more than half of his congregation.

In 2008, I OC'd to the Kitsap County Republican Convention that was held in a church sanctuary in Silverdale. The only comment I got was from a guy that was CC. He only wanted to point out where he was sitting. Of course, this was not a church service, but I assume there were members of the congregation in attendance. No objections from anyone regarding my OC.

country.hacker; said:

OC (Or any lawful carry for that matter) and religion in general: It's true that the Bible says not to kill, and handguns pretty much have one purpose. However the strong are also called to protect the weak from evil,

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One little correction here. The bible doesn't say not to kill. It says not to murder. Self defense and justice are perfectly acceptable reasons to kill. I'm sure the confusion comes from an improper translation of the Torah.

Thank you for the compliments by the way.

tombrewster421 said:

One little correction here. The bible doesn't say not to kill. It says not to murder. Self defense and justice are perfectly acceptable reasons to kill. I'm sure the confusion comes from an improper translation of the Torah.

Thank you for the compliments by the way.

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And a big correction: the bible repeatedly tells people to murder other people. E.g. 1 Sam 15, where "god" says to kill everyone, including women and children. It says to do so and it's clearly not in self-defense, but in revenge and aggression. That's not the only place, but it's one of the most clear.

Tawnos said:

And a big correction: the bible repeatedly tells people to murder other people. E.g. 1 Sam 15, where "god" says to kill everyone, including women and children. It says to do so and it's clearly not in self-defense, but in revenge and aggression. That's not the only place, but it's one of the most clear.

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"Self defense and Justice..." Gods revenge is justice, not murder.

Probably best to keep to general church, what a given religion does or does not allow is going to shift this topic fast. I thank all the poster's for their civility.

Vitaeus said:

Probably best to keep to general church, what a given religion does or does not allow is going to shift this topic fast. I thank all the poster's for their civility.

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+1 We've been keeping it civil & friendly thus far. Tawnos should take his religious hatred to another thread.

tombrewster421 said:

One little correction here. The bible doesn't say not to kill. It says not to murder. Self defense and justice are perfectly acceptable reasons to kill. I'm sure the confusion comes from an improper translation of the Torah.

Thank you for the compliments by the way.

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correct. i see lib jews, christians (since it's old testament) and atheist/agnostics call this out all the time in arguments about peopel they claim are hypocrites

very true. not only is the proper translation "murder" not "kill", it's clear from other context that killing in self defense (an example of a lawful killing) is more than respected in the OT to put it mildly.

one could argue that protecting others and one's self is more than a right, according to the OT... it's a DUTY

Metalhead47 said:

I understand several southern states have laws like that. Any idea on their history?

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No, I have no idea as to the history of this custom / law / etc.

For those that take constructive criticism as unwelcome, move on to the next post. I am, in fact, attempting to participate in a healthy discussion here.

In essence I agree with the OP. Why not freely associate with those that have mutual interest in exercising freedom?

This idea that transitioning from oc to cc at church is somehow different than anywhere else is startlingly hypocritical, in my opinion. Someone approaches you in a coffeehouse, requesting you cover up or put your gun in your car, as it offends their sensibilities that you would carry in such a place...or a park..grocery store...hardware store...toy store...take your pick. On this forum such folks are variously corrected, admonished, or on occasion denigrated for such a response to OC. And often rightly so, I might add. But at 'church'....

(to those whom I quote - I am not attacking you personally, only utilizing your statements to make a point, as they seem to have been met with tacit approval.)

country.hacker - "OC at church: As I said in the other thread, the problem I have with open carry in church is that church is supposed to be a safe, welcoming environment, where anyone can walk in off the street and feel instantly welcome. I really liked what tombrewster said on the issue, and consider my right to carry secondary to the potential salvation of someone who may be 'scared' of guns."

What part of Open Carry in church is the antithesis of 'a safe, welcoming environment, where anyone can walk in off the street and feel instantly welcome.' That sounds like the anti-gun crowd, or the CC crowd that frowns on OC, when applied to anywhere outside of 'church'.

Metalhead47 - "+1 We've been keeping it civil & friendly thus far. Tawnos should take his religious hatred to another thread. "

Do you prefer to have a one sided discussion? I hardly find Tawnos' statements to be 'religious hatred'; seems more like fact checking to me. I've read the old and new testament, and plenty of other religious texts. Deity sanctioned killing is quite common. Do you find this post to be 'religious hatred' as well?

carracer - ""Self defense and Justice..." Gods revenge is justice, not murder. "

tombrewster - "One little correction here. The bible doesn't say not to kill. It says not to murder. Self defense and justice are perfectly acceptable reasons to kill. I'm sure the confusion comes from an improper translation of the Torah."

I do not intend to hijack this thread, turning it into a religious debate, but those statements fly in the face of the old testament itself, thereby undermining the intellectual honesty of this thread....in my humble opinion. Deuteronomy 13, for example.

Many of us don't hold organized religion to the esteem that others do. So when those that have decided that church is somehow 'different' than everywhere else, suit yourself; but as is often the case with religious discussions in general, it seems you don't even realize how preachy you appear to some of the rest of us. Yet you want to be respected for your religious fervor.

I am not defending delicate sensibilities. Quite the opposite, I abhor political correctness. I was once a weekly church-goer, as well; I am not commenting on a subject with which I am unfamiliar.

I know if anyone agrees or disagrees with my response, they will readily say so; that's one of the things I enjoy about this forum. Let's hear it!

aktion said:

For those that take constructive criticism as unwelcome, move on to the next post. I am, in fact, attempting to participate in a healthy discussion here.

In essence I agree with the OP. Why not freely associate with those that have mutual interest in exercising freedom?

This idea that transitioning from oc to cc at church is somehow different than anywhere else is startlingly hypocritical, in my opinion. Someone approaches you in a coffeehouse, requesting you cover up or put your gun in your car, as it offends their sensibilities that you would carry in such a place...or a park..grocery store...hardware store...toy store...take your pick. On this forum such folks are variously corrected, admonished, or on occasion denigrated for such a response to OC. And often rightly so, I might add. But at 'church'....

(to those whom I quote - I am not attacking you personally, only utilizing your statements to make a point, as they seem to have been met with tacit approval.)

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You must learn to use the MultiQuote, grahshoppah

I've listed several examples of how OC in church is different than OC in public, at least to me. On another note, churches generally are not open to "the public." Yes, everyone is (at least in theory) welcome there, but each is going to have its own standard of behavior. I see it as more akin to visiting family than going into Starbucks, etc. How many folks on here have mentioned elsewhere that they voluntarily cover up when visiting various family memers, whether it's out of respect, to keep the peace, etc.

More over, part of being a person of faith (any faith), generally involves some voluntary suspension of rights. Just because something is a right, doesn't necessarily make it right, according to one's chosen faith. Example: today is Ash Wednesday, a day of fasting & abstinence from meat for us Catholics. Did I have the right, today, to cook up two pounds of hamburger & shovel it down my gullet? Sure I did. Am I betraying the "exercise of freedom" because I chose not to, and choose to associate with others who did the same? I don't think so. If I choose to cover up, dress up, or do whatever to meet the standard of behavior of my chosen church (that is, that specific local community), am I betraying the "exercise of freedom?" If I think my church, or Church, is wrong about such a thing, then I still have the freedom to do what I can to change that standard. Lord knows the Church has changed plenty of standards of behavior over the past couple millennia.

Like I've said before, the Church's (or church's) position on carry etiquette is something completely separated from the Church's theology. I go there for the theology, not the politics. If covering up is one sacrifice I have to make to do so, how is that different from sacrificing the hour or so of my day to go there in the first place?

To me, the Catholic Church is the theological Fulfillment of Truth. The Pope's, or local priest's, position on open carry is really irrelevant to me, or at worst a minor annoyance, until it becomes a matter of official Church doctrine. Which I don't see happening, one way or the other.

aktion said:

country.hacker - "OC at church: As I said in the other thread, the problem I have with open carry in church is that church is supposed to be a safe, welcoming environment, where anyone can walk in off the street and feel instantly welcome. I really liked what tombrewster said on the issue, and consider my right to carry secondary to the potential salvation of someone who may be 'scared' of guns."


What part of Open Carry in church is the antithesis of 'a safe, welcoming environment, where anyone can walk in off the street and feel instantly welcome.' That sounds like the anti-gun crowd, or the CC crowd that frowns on OC, when applied to anywhere outside of 'church'.

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We have to pick our battles bro. Like it or not, we're not going to convince EVERYONE EVERYWHERE that OC is hunky-dory, at least not in one lifetime. Therefore, there are times when concealing may be prudent. Prudent, as in, not a requirement, just a good idea at that time & place.

aktion said:

Metalhead47 - "+1 We've been keeping it civil & friendly thus far. Tawnos should take his religious hatred to another thread. "

Do you prefer to have a one sided discussion? I hardly find Tawnos' statements to be 'religious hatred'; seems more like fact checking to me. I've read the old and new testament, and plenty of other religious texts. Deity sanctioned killing is quite common. Do you find this post to be 'religious hatred' as well?

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Your post has been entirely respectful and civil. Since I have him on ignore, I can only see Tawnos' comments in others quotes, but it sure looks like he chose to open his post with a direct insult to people of faith, that they are, by definition, irrational. He's displayed a similar attitude towards religion and religious in dozens of posts in other threads. If he think's we're all just being irrational, then he could have simply chosen not to post in this thread. I think is attitude goes well beyond "agreeing to disagree" into the realm of simple hatred. And that's all I've got to say about that.

carracer - ""Self defense and Justice..." Gods revenge is justice, not murder. "

tombrewster - "One little correction here. The bible doesn't say not to kill. It says not to murder. Self defense and justice are perfectly acceptable reasons to kill. I'm sure the confusion comes from an improper translation of the Torah."

I do not intend to hijack this thread, turning it into a religious debate, but those statements fly in the face of the old testament itself, thereby undermining the intellectual honesty of this thread....in my humble opinion. Deuteronomy 13, for example.

Many of us don't hold organized religion to the esteem that others do. So when those that have decided that church is somehow 'different' than everywhere else, suit yourself; but as is often the case with religious discussions in general, it seems you don't even realize how preachy you appear to some of the rest of us. Yet you want to be respected for your religious fervor.

I am not defending delicate sensibilities. Quite the opposite, I abhor political correctness. I was once a weekly church-goer, as well; I am not commenting on a subject with which I am unfamiliar.

I know if anyone agrees or disagrees with my response, they will readily say so; that's one of the things I enjoy about this forum. Let's hear it!

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If you do not intend to turn this thread into a religious debate, then why did you do exactly that with your last few paragraphs?

The theme of this thread is "OC in a house of worship." Since no one from a non-Christian faith has popped in, it's more specifically "OC in church." And with that focus, we've been staying civil & friendly, so I say let's keep it to that. How does open carry directly relate to going to church, and possibly what does the <insert holy book here> say specifically about the nature of self defense?

Let's keep the arguments over supposed Biblical contradictions or the merits of religion its self for another thread, shall we? If we appear "preachy" to you (not you specifically), then why not just pass on & leave the preachers to their preachin'? The same could be said about some OC advocates being "preachy" to others...

"In essence I agree with the OP. Why not freely associate with those that have mutual interest in exercising freedom?"

first of all, this begs the question. it assumes that if some people in a church might be distracted by seeing openly carried firearms IN CHURCH, that they don't have a mutual interest in exercising freedom.

setting aside that logical fallacy, i would assume MOST people choose a church for a lot of reasons, such as um... i don't know... that whole god and man stuff... and not just because the congregation is equally sympatico and feels the exact same way about OCing *in* church

outside the rarefied political climes of oc.org we can have friends, etc. that may actually.. wait for it.. have different views on OCing, on political parties, etc. heck, i have a friend who is an actual (he admits it) communist. that's not a bad thing

i wouldn't wear my surf t-shirt that says "if you can't rock and roll, don't fucken (sic) come" t-shirt in a lot of places (it's a surfer t-shirt from way back in the day)

it's my choice to wear it. it's my 1st amendment right in public, but assuming i went to a house(s) of worship, i would choose NOt to wear it

there is this assumption among many here, that VOLUNTARILY MAKING A CHOICE not to do X out of any # of various considerations, when X is an expression of a constitutional right, equals some kind of great COMPROMISE OF THE CAUSE

one of the reasons i chose to move to WA was its strong protection of gun rights (not to mention the lack of income tax). these are two political causes i care a LOT ABOUT. (please don't get me started on the recent criminalizing of online poker though).

few people care more about firearms rights than me. and it's not because they benefit ME. i can carry either way. nationwide. it's because i care about the rights of ALL, it's not a selfish thang

a state is better that respects the rights of its inhabitants. WA, with our right to privacy, strong search and seizure limitations on LEO's, right to carry, etc. is thus a great state

but i don't buy this ID that CHOOSING not to carry OC in certain places is somehow "giving in" or hurting the cause.