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Thread: Toy Guns Becoming A Criminal Offense? MI Senator Rick Jones (R) proposes

  1. #1
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Toy Guns Becoming A Criminal Offense? MI Senator Rick Jones (R) proposes

    http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/02/...minal-offense/
    State Senate Republican Rick Jones said that this has become a major problem, especially within the gang community. “People are taking imitation firearms that look real, cutting off the orange end and then threatening people,” he said.

    Supporters of the proposed legislation have also cited a recent case where a police officer was forced to shoot a gang member who was aiming a toy gun without its required markings. Jones believes this proposal will be vital in preventing incidents such as this from occurring in the future.

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    I have contacted the legislature about this. Thanks for posting.

    Email as follows. Its time we start telling them that we are running out of patience.

    It has just come to my attention that you have the time and the mindset to work on toy gun control legislation by making it a crime to take the orange tips out of cap guns, while important issues like eliminating gun free zones sit in a file box somewhere. Gun owners gave our side the majority last term, and we expect to see some results. Nothing is being done of any real value, laws are still keeping law abiding citizens from carrying guns in their private vehicles, laws like strengthening preemption are not even being discussed, and people are still getting their CPLs yanked without due process on unrelated issues like reckless driving. Gun owners are frankly getting fed up with this inept legislature, and we vote.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 02-21-2012 at 11:32 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Question Why

    More silly legislation on my opinion. If a gang banger pulls a real gun, or toy made to look real, they should expect to be met with resistance moving at terminal velocity So again, where's the issue here? Just saying.....

    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    There apparently is a Grand Rapids area city that has a law on the books that one can't carry a "facsimile" firearm openly.
    A few years ago, a few local "YouTubers" were making a video in Grandville, which had them walking around town with some air-soft rifles. They were eventually cited and convicted. What I find interesting is that I can walk around in Grandville with a real firearm and the city PD can't do anything. But God forbid I walk around with a toy on my hip... then I'd be in REAL trouble.

    Here's the only cite I could find (I did read later they were convicted)

    http://www.wzzm13.com/news/local/sto...storyid=101114
    Last edited by DrTodd; 02-21-2012 at 11:53 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    There apparently is a Grand Rapids area city that has a law on the books that one can't carry a "facsimile" firearm openly.
    A few years ago, a few local "YouTubers" were making a video in Grandville, which had them walking around town with some air-soft rifles. They were eventually cited and convicted. What I find interesting is that I can walk around in Grandville with a real firearm and the city PD can't do anything. But God forbid I walk around with a toy on my hip... then I'd be in REAL trouble.

    Here's the only cite I could find (I did read later they were convicted)

    http://www.wzzm13.com/news/local/sto...storyid=101114
    Taylor has one on the books (as do many cities near Detroit)
    http://semiairsoft.proboards.com/ind...40&page=1#9976
    after some teenagers "played a game" of running through the parking lot of Southland Mall chasing one another with their soft air pistols drawn To my knowledge theirs still had the orange tips on them but they made many non - gun types flip out in fear none the less.

    No fixing stupid....
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 02-22-2012 at 12:10 AM. Reason: Link
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  6. #6
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Taylor has one on the books (as do many cities near Detroit)
    http://semiairsoft.proboards.com/ind...40&page=1#9976
    after some teenagers "played a game" of running through the parking lot of Southland Mall chasing one another with their soft air pistols drawn To my knowledge theirs still had the orange tips on them but they made many non - gun types flip out in fear none the less.

    No fixing stupid....
    So, if you show up to the "game" with a real gun... do you "win"?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    So, if you show up to the "game" with a real gun... do you "win"?
    Well, someone is going to end up with a "lead" first place "metal" when this kind of stupidity is at work.
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 02-22-2012 at 12:29 AM.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    For myself I play airsoft and love it however all my airsoft guns are properly marked and we only play on private property with the owners written permission. I agree if some stupid gang banger wants to point a toy gun at a police officer then he is doing the gene pool a favor by being shot. That is even dumber than bringing a knife to a gun fight.

    I agree with Stainless though that there are bigger issues they should be considering than legislating toy guns.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    For myself I play airsoft and love it however all my airsoft guns are properly marked and we only play on private property with the owners written permission. I agree if some stupid gang banger wants to point a toy gun at a police officer then he is doing the gene pool a favor by being shot. That is even dumber than bringing a knife to a gun fight.

    I agree with Stainless though that there are bigger issues they should be considering than legislating toy guns.
    kneejerk, and especially kneejerk "for the children" legislation always leaves me pissed off

    that being said, there is another scenario that has happened that nobody mentions

    criminals painting REAL guns with orange tips so LEO's etc. will hesitate when they see them... and THAT is also a concern

    iow, person presents fake gun that looks real they run real risk of getting perforated. thats bad

    person presents real gun that is modified to look fake, they run real chance of getting a cop or any llawful carrier defending self or others to decide NOT to shoot and gives them a substantial tactical advantage

    that's bad too

    fwiw, i've been dispatched to a few incidents involving kids with what turn out to be airsoft guns, but where the callers etc. are hysterical about kids with guns. usually, it's at least somewhat obvious (dressed in camo, dropped off by soccer mom or whatever), but still what it really comes down to - is people exercising a little common sense

    fwiw, some of these guns look very real. we had a pedestrian call in a handgun dumped in a ditch by the side of the road. when my partner got there, the guy was pointing to the gun just a few feet away. it was an airsoft. but even sitting there looking at it STATIC (iow not being waved in somebody's hand at a distance), he thought it was real

    obviously, it would be profoundly unethical for any gun manufacturer to make a real gun that LOOKS like a replica (orange tip etc.) and legislation aside, when and if a tragedy ensued, that's one of the few gun industry lawsuit cases i could imagine i would support


    i've seen bangers who carry airsoft guns (and.or had them concealed in their car etc.) and even admit they use them for "protection" since they are convicted felons, so they figure they are "safe"

    well, whatever.

    obviously, under the RCW, its still a crime to present them in a manner, and especially during the commission of a violent felony, such that they appear to be a legitimate gun

    iow, rob a bank with an airsoft gun and it's still armed robbery. the actual firearms enhancement statutes require a serviceable firearm, but the laws regarding "armed robbery" only require the person REASONABLY perceived it as a firearm which a person would

  10. #10
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    kneejerk, and especially kneejerk "for the children" legislation always leaves me pissed off

    that being said, there is another scenario that has happened that nobody mentions

    criminals painting REAL guns with orange tips so LEO's etc. will hesitate when they see them... and THAT is also a concern

    iow, person presents fake gun that looks real they run real risk of getting perforated. thats bad

    person presents real gun that is modified to look fake, they run real chance of getting a cop or any llawful carrier defending self or others to decide NOT to shoot and gives them a substantial tactical advantage

    that's bad too

    fwiw, i've been dispatched to a few incidents involving kids with what turn out to be airsoft guns, but where the callers etc. are hysterical about kids with guns. usually, it's at least somewhat obvious (dressed in camo, dropped off by soccer mom or whatever), but still what it really comes down to - is people exercising a little common sense

    fwiw, some of these guns look very real. we had a pedestrian call in a handgun dumped in a ditch by the side of the road. when my partner got there, the guy was pointing to the gun just a few feet away. it was an airsoft. but even sitting there looking at it STATIC (iow not being waved in somebody's hand at a distance), he thought it was real

    obviously, it would be profoundly unethical for any gun manufacturer to make a real gun that LOOKS like a replica (orange tip etc.) and legislation aside, when and if a tragedy ensued, that's one of the few gun industry lawsuit cases i could imagine i would support


    i've seen bangers who carry airsoft guns (and.or had them concealed in their car etc.) and even admit they use them for "protection" since they are convicted felons, so they figure they are "safe"

    well, whatever.

    obviously, under the RCW, its still a crime to present them in a manner, and especially during the commission of a violent felony, such that they appear to be a legitimate gun

    iow, rob a bank with an airsoft gun and it's still armed robbery. the actual firearms enhancement statutes require a serviceable firearm, but the laws regarding "armed robbery" only require the person REASONABLY perceived it as a firearm which a person would
    MOC leadership is already on this.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Maybe someone can post a link to our lobbying list so the OP can sign up for it and stay informed and take action in the future?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    http://eepurl.com/hJzk-/ -- this is for the OP. consider following this link to sign up for our legislative action email list.

    The topic of this thread was the subject if an email that went out last week.

    The list is free, open to the public, and you can unsubscribe at any time. We will never sell your personal information.
    Last edited by TheQ; 02-22-2012 at 09:38 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  13. #13
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Maybe someone can post a link to our lobbying list so the OP can sign up for it and stay informed and take action in the future?
    The OP is from Wisconsin, was banned and has returned under the new name. Many miss Doug's old style of posting.
    Last edited by Venator; 02-22-2012 at 10:17 AM.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    This legislation should stop criminals from doing it.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    definition of insanity?

    Wait, why do I keep writing to the legislature? That puts me in that category...

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    definition of insanity?

    Wait, why do I keep writing to the legislature? That puts me in that category...
    You were on that trip before the writing...
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    heeeeyyyy.

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    I was not signed up for, or aware of, the legislative action email list. I signed up now but who exactly should I try to be contacting about this issue? Rick Jones? Everyone? Anyone?

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    They will tell you who to contact, besides your representative.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Each email will have a detailed action plan of who to call and a suggestion on what to say.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    I love how they said they believe this legislature wil prevent incidents where kids pull off orange tips and get shot by police. And just how exactly do they think that's going to happen? All I see in that is a punishment not any preventative measures. This legislature won't physically stop it, am I the only one that realizes this..why do these people waste everyone's time with crap like this. Almost makes me want to run for a position if I was qualified, I could probably do a better job of getting the stupid out of there.
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

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    ^ This is what Im talking about. The only way we are going to get anywhere, is by taking Lansing.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Thumbs up +1 Billion!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yance View Post
    I love how they said they believe this legislature wil prevent incidents where kids pull off orange tips and get shot by police. And just how exactly do they think that's going to happen? All I see in that is a punishment not any preventative measures. This legislature won't physically stop it, am I the only one that realizes this..why do these people waste everyone's time with crap like this. Almost makes me want to run for a position if I was qualified, I could probably do a better job of getting the stupid out of there.
    Truer words I could not have spoken myself Yance +1 Billion!
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Truer words I could not have spoken myself Yance +1 Billion!


    Just more unenforcable and 'stack-on' laws...
    When you put the gun in the holster, put the ego in the gun safe.

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