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Thread: Just looking for some info.

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    Just looking for some info.

    I recently purchased my first pistol and I'am in the process of getting my ccw. When I bought my gun I spoke with the in store gun smith about open carry in my area and he told me that I can go ahead and try but will be stopped almost every time by the local police and they will charge me brandishing, disturbing the peace, and inducing panic. I'm just wondering if it's even worth the hassle to oc. I really dont think it's right for any leo to take the laws into hisown hands. Just looking for some insight. I also heard that if a leo unlawfully arrests you than they would be responsible for attorney fees due to it being a civil tort.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Open carry (OC) of a properly holstered handgun is not brandishing, disturbing the peace, nor inducing panic - those are absurd allegations.

    Ohio is a traditional open carry state. Recently, the Ohio legislature passed HB-12 over Governor Taft's veto, thus preempting all local open carry bans even in Ohio's "home rule" localities. Unfortunately, despite passage of HB-12, a permit to conceal is still required to openly carry a handgun in a vehicle.
    http://www.opencarry.org/oh.html
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    Don't take legal advice from gun store clerks.

    All Ohio gun owners need to know the law, but especially open carriers. There are activities that are legal for those with a concealed handgun license (CHL) that are illegal for those without a license and that includes open carriers without a CHL.

    Start by reading the Ohio Attorney General's manual on concealed carry. That is something you are legally required to read anyway since you state you will be getting your CHL.

    Here are some resources for learning Ohio's gun laws.

    Ohio Attorney General's Manual on Concealed Carry:

    http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/C...aspx/?from=nav

    Ken Hanson's book:

    http://www.ohiogunlawguide.com/

    Sean Culley's book:

    http://www.seanculley.com/book.asp

    Ohio Revised Code:

    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923

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    Quote Originally Posted by phibbsey View Post
    I recently purchased my first pistol and I'am in the process of getting my ccw. When I bought my gun I spoke with the in store gun smith about open carry in my area and he told me that I can go ahead and try but will be stopped almost every time by the local police and they will charge me brandishing, disturbing the peace, and inducing panic. I'm just wondering if it's even worth the hassle to oc. I really dont think it's right for any leo to take the laws into hisown hands. Just looking for some insight. I also heard that if a leo unlawfully arrests you than they would be responsible for attorney fees due to it being a civil tort.
    Sounds like your smith is older, or is old enough to have lived through the time when what he said was more or less true, and has chosen not to open carry since that time, and further, has not kept up with current events. The legal cites others have provided are fine and correct. I'm in central Ohio (northern Franklin/southern Delaware county, also in Union county a lot) and I open carry all the time, except when concealed carrying under Ohio's bizarre vehicle = concealed carry laws. In other words, if I'm not in the vehicle (or on it, for a motorcycle) I'm open carrying. I have had non-eventful encounters with LEO's and nobody has stuffed and cuffed me yet, in fact, it's been a rather pleasant experience to be greeted almost overwhelmingly with either happy people, or at worst, somebody who is neutral and remains silent.

    In short, your smith is living in 1974 and hasn't left it yet. He may want to study up on 21st century Ohio law, which is increasingly similar to 18th century Constitutional carry (and the parts that aren't, we're working on making so). The only places I know where cops are still in the dark ages are Canton (home of now *EX* officer Harless) and Cleveland (who is getting slapped around so hard in court that I think they may be put in time out until they grow up).

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    Excuse my ignorance and I'm not wanting to start a new thread for a question that has been answered 1000x, but in order to open carry you must have you ccw correct?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by racerboy27 View Post
    Excuse my ignorance and I'm not wanting to start a new thread for a question that has been answered 1000x, but in order to open carry you must have you ccw correct?
    Ohio is a traditional open carry state. Recently, the Ohio legislature passed HB-12 over Governor Taft's veto, thus preempting all local open carry bans even in Ohio's "home rule" localities. Unfortunately, despite passage of HB-12, a permit to conceal is still required to openly carry a handgun in a vehicle.
    http://opencarry.org/oh.html
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostOfJefferson View Post
    Sounds like your smith is older, or is old enough to have lived through the time when what he said was more or less true, and has chosen not to open carry since that time, and further, has not kept up with current events. The legal cites others have provided are fine and correct. I'm in central Ohio (northern Franklin/southern Delaware county, also in Union county a lot) and I open carry all the time, except when concealed carrying under Ohio's bizarre vehicle = concealed carry laws. In other words, if I'm not in the vehicle (or on it, for a motorcycle) I'm open carrying. I have had non-eventful encounters with LEO's and nobody has stuffed and cuffed me yet, in fact, it's been a rather pleasant experience to be greeted almost overwhelmingly with either happy people, or at worst, somebody who is neutral and remains silent.

    In short, your smith is living in 1974 and hasn't left it yet. He may want to study up on 21st century Ohio law, which is increasingly similar to 18th century Constitutional carry (and the parts that aren't, we're working on making so). The only places I know where cops are still in the dark ages are Canton (home of now *EX* officer Harless) and Cleveland (who is getting slapped around so hard in court that I think they may be put in time out until they grow up).
    Seems to be more than just the local smith. I've talked to a local leo friend of mine and he said that alot of the older police officers will stop and harass you for the hell of it until they make it a nuisance to oc. I would really like to have a local oc walk or be a part of a group before I actually attempt on my own. Is there any upcoming oc events in the youngstown area? I would really like to attend!
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 09-10-2012 at 06:10 PM. Reason: Fixed the quote formating

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    Quote Originally Posted by phibbsey View Post
    I recently purchased my first pistol and I'am in the process of getting my ccw. When I bought my gun I spoke with the in store gun smith about open carry in my area and he told me that I can go ahead and try but will be stopped almost every time by the local police and they will charge me brandishing, disturbing the peace, and inducing panic.
    Your gun dealer in incorrect and he really shouldn't be putting out bad information as "fact".

    Brandishing, disturbing the peace and "inducing panic" are all buzz phrases of the uninformed and afraid. You can't "brandish" a weapon until it's actually in your hand and you're not about to do that anytime soon I would think. You can't be "disturbing the peace" as you're going about your life in a legal manner.

    And finally you can't be "inducing panic" while performing a legal act. If you're on a street corner and waving your weapon around, THEN you've got a good case of all three of the above mentioned problems!!!

    Personally I think texting while driving is "inducing panic" more than anyone openly carrying a legal firearm!!

    As you read up on CCW and Open Carry, YOU will then become the more informed of the two and YOU will be able to make an informed decision on open carry.

    I do it all the time as my local statutes are in black and white and on the few times when I have been stopped (open carry on a motorcycle does cause a few LEO's to look twice) on all occasions I've been sent on my way with a friendly "have a nice day" and still open carrying.

    Know the law. Read these forums and the other Ohio based open carry and CCW forums and READ your statutes.

    You will find (as I did) that I much prefer open carry to concealed carry as I never liked carrying a gun in my pants and open carry is just so much easier FOR ME and more comfortable all around.

    AD (never stop reading and learning)
    Last edited by ADulay; 02-22-2012 at 09:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by racerboy27 View Post
    Excuse my ignorance and I'm not wanting to start a new thread for a question that has been answered 1000x, but in order to open carry you must have you ccw correct?
    In non-legalese, no, you need no "license" or permissions or any kind of paper work for simple open carry, it's a constitutional right in Ohio and is regarded as such even in the CCW book the AG has put out the last couple of years. The exception to this HOWEVER, is if you open carry in/on a vehicle, as Ohio considers this "concealed carry" by law, even if you have the firearm dangling on a string on the rear view mirror for the world to see and even if you're wearing it in a clearly visible holster on a motorcycle (concealed? Really? Yep, Ohio law says so).

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    I am also new to open carry. Can someone answer this question? Are there other exceptions around open carry like the ones that apply to concealed carry such as OC in an alcohol serving restaurant such as Applebee's? Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcrich View Post
    I am also new to open carry. Can someone answer this question? Are there other exceptions around open carry like the ones that apply to concealed carry such as OC in an alcohol serving restaurant such as Applebee's? Thanks.
    Yes. Any law or exception that specifices "for a CHL holder" are not for open carriers. Ergo, you cannot enter a restaurant that serves alcohol, with an openly carried firearm, unless you have a CHL. And of course, the vehicle restriction I mentioned earlier in the thread. Also keep in mind that you cannot open carry within 1000 feet of a school without a CHL.

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    Thanks. But to be clear, does this enable CHL carriers a different set of OPEN carry rights than everyone else? Or do do the CHL carriers have to keep their guns concealed in these special circumstances? I.e., I have a CHL, so can I OPEN carry in an alcohol serving establishment, or does it have to be concealed? Where would I specifically find the reference to this in ORC?

    Thanks many!

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    No where in the law does it say that those with a CHL must keep their guns concealed. The license simply gives licensees the option to do so (legally) if desired.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostOfJefferson View Post
    Also keep in mind that you cannot open carry within 1000 feet of a school without a CHL.
    Please excuse the out of state question here: Is this Ohio law, or are you citing the federal law (922)?

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    RT - thanks. this is how I redacted the ORC too, as I couldn't find anything stating that a CHL Had to keep the gun concealed even in the "Applebee's" exception (or in my case, the "Chipotle" exception). I wonder if this was intended when the law was written / approved or if our lawmakers were too busy spending our money to realize this? Either way, this is good for us. And we need to make sure a "fix" isn't slipped into the ORC when it's touched for other reasons, such as changes to the notify components of the law.

    By the way, I find this forum incredibly helpful. In fact, it is the only forum I have ever bothered to join. Thanks to all!

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    Bc.cruiser, I am referring only o the Ohio Revised Code (ORC).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcrich View Post
    Bc.cruiser, I am referring only o the Ohio Revised Code (ORC).
    Thanks. I found the ORC that applies. I figured I was still screwed as far as travelling through until I also read 2923.126(D). Now I'm okay; we don't have the same language here (specifically there is no state mandated SAFETY ZONE), but for the purpose of the GFSZ, NC recognizes all concealed carry permits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bc.cruiser View Post
    Thanks. I found the ORC that applies. I figured I was still screwed as far as travelling through until I also read 2923.126(D). Now I'm okay; we don't have the same language here (specifically there is no state mandated SAFETY ZONE), but for the purpose of the GFSZ, NC recognizes all concealed carry permits.
    The Ohio defined school safety zone stops at the property line as opposed to the Federal definition that adds the extra 1000 ft.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostOfJefferson
    Also keep in mind that you cannot open carry within 1000 feet of a school without a CHL.
    Quote Originally Posted by bc.cruiser View Post
    Please excuse the out of state question here: Is this Ohio law, or are you citing the federal law (922)?
    I sure don't know of any federal or state law saying you can't carry, open or otherwise, within 1,000' of a school.

    If there is what is the chapter and verse?????

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    Quote Originally Posted by RT48 View Post
    The Ohio defined school safety zone stops at the property line as opposed to the Federal definition that adds the extra 1000 ft.
    School zones can be extended 300' beyond the property line under certain conditions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    I sure don't know of any federal or state law saying you can't carry, open or otherwise, within 1,000' of a school.

    If there is what is the chapter and verse?????
    Congressional Record S7920-7921

    http://wise.fau.edu/~tunick/courses/conlaw/gunlaw.html
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Since Congress amended 18 USC 922(q) there has been two courts that I know of that has upheld Congresses changes. See United States v. Dorsey, 418 F.3d 1038 (9th Cir. 2005); United States v. Danks, 221 F.3d 1037 (8th Cir. 1999). Both are contrary to Lopez.

    Hodel v. Virginia Surface Mining & Reclamation Assn., Inc., 452 U.S. 264 (1981), United States v. Lopez, 514 U. S. 549 (1995) and Gonzales v. Raich, 545 U.S. 1 (2005) all made it clear that under the Commerce Clause Congress is required to show a tangible link to commerce, not a mere conceivable rational relation. “[S]imply because Congress may conclude that a particular activity substantially affects interstate commerce does not necessarily make it so.” See Lopez, supra, at 557, n. 2 (quoting Hodel, supra, at 311 (Rehnquist, J., concurring in judgment).

    The Lopez Court made it clear that the Commerce Clause would not carry the day when it comes to carrying a gun in a school zone.

    The possession of a gun in a local school zone is in no sense an economic activity that might, through repetition elsewhere, substantially affect any sort of interstate commerce. Respondent was a local student at a local school; there is no indication that he had recently moved in interstate commerce, and there is no requirement that his possession of the firearm have any concrete tie to interstate commerce.

    To uphold the Government's contentions here, we would have to pile inference upon inference in a manner that would bid fair to convert congressional authority under the Commerce Clause to a general police power of the sort retained by the States. Admittedly, some of our prior cases have taken long steps down that road, giving great deference to congressional action. See supra, at 556-558. The broad language in these opinions has suggested the possibility of additional expansion, but we decline here to proceed any further. To do so would require us to conclude that the Constitution's enumeration of powers does not presuppose something not enumerated, cf. Gibbons v. Ogden, supra, at 195, and that there never will be a distinction between what is truly national and what is truly local, cf. Jones & Laughlin Steel, supra, at 30. This we are unwilling to do.
    I know of no case in our circuit (6th cir.) that has ruled contrary to Lopez.
    Last edited by color of law; 03-11-2012 at 09:44 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Actually I know of no case where the GFSZ Act has been used to prosecute successfully as the primary charge.
    I too do not think it would hold up to a challenge.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Despite the laws, the summary of Ohio's laws here, O.R.C. 9.68, the Ohio Constitution, and the United States Constitution, you may be stopped, asked for ID, and threatened with charges.

    You can and may be charged with inducing panic, disorderly conduct, or anything else, depending on the officer and the county prosecutor (if he/she is involved).

    I know - one or more of the above has happened to me, or someone I know, in the past six months - and I have open carried off and on for more than five years.

    That said, if you're prepared to deal with those eventualities, then open carry. Be an ambassador to an inquiring public while you are doing so. Dress and act like a "respectable" citizen. If you want to take part in open carry activism, then do so.

    Very simply, if you don't want, and are not willing to accept the potential negative repercussions of open carry, then don't do it.
    Last edited by BB62; 03-12-2012 at 02:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Despite the laws, the summary of Ohio's laws here, O.R.C. 9.68, the Ohio Constitution, and the United States Constitution, you may be stopped, asked for ID, and threatened with charges.

    You can and may be charged with inducing panic, disorderly conduct, or anything else, depending on the officer and the county prosecutor (if he/she is involved).

    I know - one or more of the above has happened to me, or someone I know, in the past six months - and I have open carried off and on for more than five years.

    That said, if you're prepared to deal with those eventualities, then open carry. Be an ambassador to an inquiring public while do are doing so. Dress and act like a "respectable" citizen. If you want to take part in open carry activism, then do so.

    Very simply, if you don't want, and are not willing to accept the potential negative repercussions of open carry, then don't do it.
    One can greatly reduce the impact of these possibilities by being well versed in the laws, carrying a recorder, remaining calm and following through after the fact. Not all encounters will end badly.

    OCs acceptance depends on responsible activism - if in no other way than by doing so as often as possible.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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