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Thread: Contacted the ATF

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    Contacted the ATF

    I contacted the ATF in St.Louis, MO earlier today and spoke with ATF agent Ms.Washington...I asked "What is the age to purely possess a handgun?" She told me right off the bat that is was 21...So I read some of the Missouri and Federal Statues and she told me to hold on...Once she came back to the phone she said that if I possess a handgun and get caught with it then I would be going to jail...I replied that even if I get a Maine CCW which lets you carry at 18 she said yea. So I then decided to tell her that Missouri honors all CCWs and that under federal law I'm not a juvenile which is any person under the age of 18 which I am 20. She then got real frustrated and told me to contact the Attorney General so I did. He couldn't provide me any answers and told me to call a Criminal Justice Attorney and so I did two of them said that it could be gifted to me but that I was not able to buy a handgun from a private seller. Also i forgot to mention that while I was talking to Ms.Washington I asked if she could point me to the laws where it said that I can't buy a handgun from a private seller according to both state and federal laws and she referred me to the atf.gov website and she said that law wouldn't be in the book because it's for FFL dealers. One criminal justice attorney said that even if I get one, I would be hassled by police and I agree fully with that...So should I get a handgun now and risk not being able to win the case or wait 7 months until I turn 21 in September

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    The law says a FFL cannot legally transfer a handgun to a person who is not 21 or older; it does not address someone under 21 who is gifted, or sold a firearm by a non-FFL holder.

    You are legal to purchase from a private party, or to have a pistol gifted or loaned to you.
    (Note that many states regulate concealed carry by persons under 21, so make sure you're aware of your particular state's laws.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    The law says a FFL cannot legally transfer a handgun to a person who is not 21 or older; it does not address someone under 21 who is gifted, or sold a firearm by a non-FFL holder.

    You are legal to purchase from a private party, or to have a pistol gifted or loaned to you.
    (Note that many states regulate concealed carry by persons under 21, so make sure you're aware of your particular state's laws.)
    Right is there something written that states that a person who is under 21 can buy a handgun from a non-FFL holder? and Missouri doesn't have any laws that I know of that would say that it's illegal

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    You can of course do what you want, but it is simply not unlawful for a person18 or older to posses a handgun. The ATF has made several publications regarding private sales. There of plenty of 18-20 year olds across the state who have been approached by law enforcement and nothing came of it.
    Last edited by Shooter64738; 02-22-2012 at 10:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hostile314 View Post
    Right is there something written that states that a person who is under 21 can buy a handgun from a non-FFL holder? and Missouri doesn't have any laws that I know of that would say that it's illegal
    Yes there is. I will post it once again.... 18 USC 922(x)

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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Here are the federal statutes that regulate who a licensed dealer can sell to. This is from the Gun Control Act of 1968 (this is still the law of the land regarding sales). I have taken the liberty of placing key words in bold text.

    First, the summary:

    SUMMARY

    The basic objectives of Title I of the Gun Control Act of 1968 were to ban mail-order sales of firearms and ammunition, confine the purchase of firearms to the buyer's state of residence, and prohibit certain classes of persons from purchasing, receiving or transporting firearms or ammunition in interstate commerce. Specifically, Title I prohibits dealers from selling any firearm or ammunition to any person who is:

    a. convicted of or under indictment for a felony

    b.a fugitive

    c.adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to any mental institution.

    d.addicted to or an unlawful user of marihuana or a stimulant, depressant, or narcotic drug.

    e.less than eighteen years of age for the purchase of a shotgun or rifle

    f.less than twenty-one years of age for the purchase of a firearm that is other than a shotgun or rifle


    g.a non resident of the State in whichthe licensee's place of business is located

    h.an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States

    i.dishonorably discharged from the armed forces

    j.subject to a court order that restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner

    k.convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence
    Then the actual statute:

    Sec. 922. Unlawful acts
    .
    .
    .
    (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver:

    (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;
    Here are the Federal statutes that regulate sales of handguns between private individuals:

    (1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile:

    (A) a handgun;or

    (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

    (2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess:

    (A) a handgun;or

    (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

    (3) This subsection does not apply to:

    (A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile or to thepossession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenileif the handgun andammunition are possessed and used by the juvenile:

    (i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;

    (ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm, except:
    .
    .
    .
    (5) For purposes of this subsection, the term "juvenile" means a person who is less than 18 years of age.
    Now here are the Missouri statutes that regulate sales, gifts, loans, and rentals of firearms in this state:

    571.060. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful transfer of weapons if he:

    (1) Knowingly sells, leases, loans, gives away or delivers a firearm or ammunition for a firearm to any person who, under the provisions of section 571.070, is not lawfully entitled to possess such;

    (2) Knowingly sells, leases, loans, gives away or delivers a blackjack to a person less than eighteen years old without the consent of the child's custodial parent or guardian, or recklessly, as defined in section 562.016, RSMo, sells, leases, loans, gives away or delivers any firearm to a person less than eighteen years old without the consent of the child's custodial parent or guardian; provided, that this does not prohibit the delivery of such weapons to any peace officer or member of the armed forces or national guard while performing his official duty; or

    (3) Recklessly, as defined in section 562.016, RSMo, sells, leases, loans, gives away or delivers a firearm or ammunition for a firearm to a person who is intoxicated.

    2. Unlawful transfer of weapons under subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section is a class D felony; unlawful transfer of weapons under subdivisions (2) and (3) of subsection 1 of this section is a class A misdemeanor.
    It is perfectly legal for an 18 year old in this state to purchase and possess a handgun, so long as they are lawfully entitled to be in possession of said gun (no felony convictions, is not intoxicated, etc). It's just that a you must be at least 21 to purchase from a Federal Firearms License holder.

    Hope that helps you out some.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cshoff View Post
    Here are the federal statutes that regulate who a licensed dealer can sell to. This is from the Gun Control Act of 1968 (this is still the law of the land regarding sales). I have taken the liberty of placing key words in bold text.

    First, the summary:



    Then the actual statute:



    Here are the Federal statutes that regulate sales of handguns between private individuals:



    Now here are the Missouri statutes that regulate sales, gifts, loans, and rentals of firearms in this state:



    It is perfectly legal for an 18 year old in this state to purchase and possess a handgun, so long as they are lawfully entitled to be in possession of said gun (no felony convictions, is not intoxicated, etc). It's just that a you must be at least 21 to purchase from a Federal Firearms License holder.

    Hope that helps you out some.
    ok cool...and where did u find this at?

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    You have been given some of the baddest information I have seen in a long time. Please review the other 3 threads I linked you to. It explains it in great detail. My son has had interactions twice with law enforcement at the ages of 18 and 19. He got a ticket for speeding once. That's it. Nothing else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hostile314 View Post
    ok cool...and where did u find this at?
    Here you go. At the first link, you'll want to go to Chapter 44, Sections 921 and 922:

    http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...USCPI&PDFS=YES

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000060.HTM

    Have fun.
    Last edited by cshoff; 02-22-2012 at 11:00 PM.

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    Generally.... laws don't say "this thing is legal" or else we'd have laws stating that eating a ham on rye sandwich on Sunday was legal. To make it easy on everyone, laws generally are prohibitory in nature and anything that's not prohibited is allowed.

    Transfer of concealable firearms.
    571.080. A person commits the crime of transfer of a concealable firearm if such person violates 18 U.S.C. Section 922(b) or 18 U.S.C. Section 922(x).
    (L. 1981 H.B. 296 subsecs. 1, 2, 3, A.L. 1998 S.B. 496, A.L. 2007 S.B. 62 & 41)

    US Code 18 USC 922 (b)
    (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or
    deliver -
    (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;
    >>>>> (NO FFL sales to anyone under 21-years of age unless it's a shotgun or rifle.)

    US Code 18 USC 922 (x)
    (1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has
    reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile -
    .....(A) a handgun; or
    .....(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

    (2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess -
    .....(A) a handgun; or
    .....(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
    (3) This subsection does not apply to - // long list of exceptions //
    (4) - // another inapplicable paragraph //

    (5) For purposes of this subsection, the term "juvenile" means a person who is less than 18 years of age.

    >>>>> (No transfers by Anyone of Anything to someone under 18, except for the listed exceptions)
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 02-22-2012 at 11:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hostile314 View Post
    I contacted the ATF in St.Louis, MO earlier today and spoke with ATF agent Ms.Washington...I asked "What is the age to purely possess a handgun?" She told me right off the bat that is was 21...So I read some of the Missouri and Federal Statues and she told me to hold on...Once she came back to the phone she said that if I possess a handgun and get caught with it then I would be going to jail...I replied that even if I get a Maine CCW which lets you carry at 18 she said yea. So I then decided to tell her that Missouri honors all CCWs and that under federal law I'm not a juvenile which is any person under the age of 18 which I am 20. She then got real frustrated and told me to contact the Attorney General so I did. He couldn't provide me any answers and told me to call a Criminal Justice Attorney and so I did two of them said that it could be gifted to me but that I was not able to buy a handgun from a private seller. Also i forgot to mention that while I was talking to Ms.Washington I asked if she could point me to the laws where it said that I can't buy a handgun from a private seller according to both state and federal laws and she referred me to the atf.gov website and she said that law wouldn't be in the book because it's for FFL dealers. One criminal justice attorney said that even if I get one, I would be hassled by police and I agree fully with that...So should I get a handgun now and risk not being able to win the case or wait 7 months until I turn 21 in September
    I hate to be "that guy", but seriously, punctuation is your friend.

    That being said, the ball is really in your court. I won't tell you specifically what to do, but I'll tell you what I would do. Were I you, I would go to a local gun show, find a private seller (this is generally pretty simple), buy whatever handgun I like, then carry it around my own house for 7 months until I turn 21.

    This is just my take on the situation. YMMV.
    "Somebody ever tries to kill you, you try and kill em right back!" - Captain Malcolm Reynolds

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    I started to read, and then finished by skimming. Punctuation and a couple of paragraphs just make things easier.

    But it sounds like you already knew the answer and just called to test them?

    Remember that the people answering the phones are just administrators of the bureaucracy. You should not ask them for legal opinions, much less facts. That said, she made a serious mistake in actually giving information which she was probably not authorized to give (as evidenced first by the fact that she was wrong.)

    Wait, this was an actual "Agent?" Did you get an actual job title?

    When you called lawyers, what were their specialties? Did you actually pay for any of this legal "advice"?
    Last edited by MAC702; 02-23-2012 at 06:26 PM.
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    I have never known a BATFE agent to give legal advice over the phone. Besides which, why would anyone make a call to get information then proceed to argue about it?

    Insofar as the Attorney General's office doing that - no way. The AG is the state's attorney, not the citizen's. They correctly directed you to select a private attorney.

    Read the laws yourself - they have been cited.
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    You've got the info; now it's up to you to make a decision.

    As for contacting the BATFE or the AG; not a good resource. Contacting an attorney is good, but get their opinion in writing; it will cost you some money, in most cases, to get it in writing.

    All this said, I don't have a problem with my 19 year old having a firearm. My interpretation is they can, under the right circumstances. It's in your ballpark.
    Last edited by Redbaron007; 02-24-2012 at 02:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbaron007 View Post
    You've got the info; now it's up to you to make a decision.

    As for contacting the BATFE or the AG; not a good resource. Contacting an attorney is good, but get their opinion in writing; it will cost you some money, in most cases, to get it in writing.

    All this said, I don't have a problem with my 19 year old having a firearm. My interpretation is they can, under the right circumstances. It's in your ballpark.
    I was just calling them to test them. I even contacted North County Police 1st Precinct and they also told me 21...I guess people are just so ignorant of the law. But I really don't want to get hassled but I guess I can open carry with a handgun if I'm with someone because I don't want to get years for so called illegal possession of a handgun so I'm just gone wait till I turn 21 in September but on the other hand what about open carrying a rifle lol...I just watched a video on youtube with two guys in California open carrying AR-15's and the cops were called but the boys didn't get arrested...I'm a little weary to try that, but I will try that instead since I can easily go to Cablea's a buy a rifle or shotgun. Here is the link to the video

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLxcS...eature=related

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hostile314 View Post
    I was just calling them to test them. I even contacted North County Police 1st Precinct and they also told me 21...I guess people are just so ignorant of the law. But I really don't want to get hassled but I guess I can open carry with a handgun if I'm with someone because I don't want to get years for so called illegal possession of a handgun so I'm just gone wait till I turn 21 in September but on the other hand what about open carrying a rifle lol...I just watched a video on youtube with two guys in California open carrying AR-15's and the cops were called but the boys didn't get arrested...I'm a little weary to try that, but I will try that instead since I can easily go to Cablea's a buy a rifle or shotgun. Here is the link to the video

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLxcS...eature=related
    Not sure I see the benefit of calling to "test them." That's just an exercise that wastes everyone's time.

    Insofar as OCing only when you are "with someone", again what is the benefit? Being with someone doesn't make you more legal.

    OCing a rifle or the discussion of same is off topic for OCDO - see Forum Rules.

    Best advice is to learn the laws, act responsibly, carry and use a recorder and enjoy your day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not sure I see the benefit of calling to "test them." That's just an exercise that wastes everyone's time.

    Insofar as OCing only when you are "with someone", again what is the benefit? Being with someone doesn't make you more legal.

    OCing a rifle or the discussion of same is off topic for OCDO - see Forum Rules.

    Best advice is to learn the laws, act responsibly, carry and use a recorder and enjoy your day.
    Testing/seeing if they would tell me the same thing you guys have been telling me.

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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hostile314 View Post
    I was just calling them to test them. I even contacted North County Police 1st Precinct and they also told me 21...I guess people are just so ignorant of the law. But I really don't want to get hassled but I guess I can open carry with a handgun if I'm with someone because I don't want to get years for so called illegal possession of a handgun so I'm just gone wait till I turn 21 ...........<snip>
    I don't know how it can be made any more clear for you. The actual federal and state laws have been posted for you, complete with links to the official sources for those laws. If you are willing to allow some phone clerk at the ATF or local police department to dictate policy to you that is contrary to actual, verifiable law, then perhaps you shouldn't be inclined to carry a firearm for self protection. Why you would ever call the ATF of local police department in an attempt to get correct answers to legal questions in the first place is beyond me.

    I did a CCW class last Sunday for a group of guys made up mostly of 19 & 20 year olds. All of them are applying for Maine CCW permits this week. There are many folks under 21 who are lawfully carrying on Maine non-resident permits in this state. Don't expect the ATF or local PD phone answerer to know or understand that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hostile314 View Post
    I contacted the ATF in St.Louis, MO earlier today and spoke with ATF agent Ms.Washington...I asked "What is the age to purely possess a handgun?" She told me right off the bat that is was 21...So I read some of the Missouri and Federal Statues and she told me to hold on...Once she came back to the phone she said that if I possess a handgun and get caught with it then I would be going to jail...I replied that even if I get a Maine CCW which lets you carry at 18 she said yea. So I then decided to tell her that Missouri honors all CCWs and that under federal law I'm not a juvenile which is any person under the age of 18 which I am 20. She then got real frustrated and told me to contact the Attorney General so I did. He couldn't provide me any answers and told me to call a Criminal Justice Attorney and so I did two of them said that it could be gifted to me but that I was not able to buy a handgun from a private seller. Also i forgot to mention that while I was talking to Ms.Washington I asked if she could point me to the laws where it said that I can't buy a handgun from a private seller according to both state and federal laws and she referred me to the atf.gov website and she said that law wouldn't be in the book because it's for FFL dealers. One criminal justice attorney said that even if I get one, I would be hassled by police and I agree fully with that...So should I get a handgun now and risk not being able to win the case or wait 7 months until I turn 21 in September
    In my opinion... its not worth having the record or some crazy crap slowing the process down for you when you do buy gun. I would say, just save your money, wait 7 months and buy something you REALLY want as your CC. You have the CCW. On your birthday, you can walk right into the store, pick out your gun and walk out with it in about 30 minutes. You waited 20 years... what's 7 more months? Hey stupid things can happen. Last thing you want is to be caught in some red tape because you are not "21" yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firedawg314 View Post
    In my opinion... its not worth having the record or some crazy crap slowing the process down for you when you do buy gun. I would say, just save your money, wait 7 months and buy something you REALLY want as your CC. You have the CCW. On your birthday, you can walk right into the store, pick out your gun and walk out with it in about 30 minutes. You waited 20 years... what's 7 more months? Hey stupid things can happen. Last thing you want is to be caught in some red tape because you are not "21" yet.
    There is no "red tape". If you are at least 18 and otherwise lawfully entitled to posses a firearm (not a felon, not a fugitive from justice, not under a current full order of protection, not adjudged mentally incompetent, etc), then it is perfectly legal for you to possess a handgun. It is also perfectly legal for you to carry that handgun in a concealed manner here in Missouri, provided that you have a valid CCW permit/license/endorsement issued by any state or political subdivision of any state.

    This isn't rocket science, folks. And it amazes me that so many are so willing to make this much harder than it really needs to be.

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    I received my first handgun on my 18th birthday. Few months later, I bought another one via a private sale. When I was 20, I bought two more and since I've turned 21 I've purchased 3 more handguns. All 100% legal. Not exactly rocket science. You only have to be 21 to purchase from an FFL, but can be 18 for a private sale. Anyone who tells you otherwise is ignorant of the law. It's a little odd that BATF agents don't seem to know this, but then again I wouldn't go to them for legal advice anyways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firedawg314 View Post
    In my opinion... its not worth having the record or some crazy crap slowing the process down for you when you do buy gun. I would say, just save your money, wait 7 months and buy something you REALLY want as your CC. You have the CCW. On your birthday, you can walk right into the store, pick out your gun and walk out with it in about 30 minutes. You waited 20 years... what's 7 more months? Hey stupid things can happen. Last thing you want is to be caught in some red tape because you are not "21" yet.
    Yea you are right that when I turn 21, I can walk right up in the store and buy whatever I want, but the way St.Louis is I would rather be protected than not to be as early as I can. But on another note, I don't how easy it is to find someone who is selling a LEGAL handgun...I can easily get an ILLEGAL handgun, but I'm NOT into getting ILLEGAL things at all.

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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hostile314 View Post
    Yea you are right that when I turn 21, I can walk right up in the store and buy whatever I want, but the way St.Louis is I would rather be protected than not to be as early as I can. But on another note, I don't how easy it is to find someone who is selling a LEGAL handgun...I can easily get an ILLEGAL handgun, but I'm NOT into getting ILLEGAL things at all.
    Just about every gun forum on the internet has a "classified" section where you can find private individuals selling handguns. Find some sellers in your state selling the kind of gun(s) you are looking for, and go from there. Just use a little common sense in your business dealings and if it doesn't feel "right", or feels too good to be true, then find a different seller and a different gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cshoff View Post
    Just about every gun forum on the internet has a "classified" section where you can find private individuals selling handguns. Find some sellers in your state selling the kind of gun(s) you are looking for, and go from there. Just use a little common sense in your business dealings and if it doesn't feel "right", or feels too good to be true, then find a different seller and a different gun.
    +1. Same goes for selling, too. I've sold a few of the guns I owned via private sales, and I require a Maine ID and write up a bill of sale with the description, S/N, etc. I've refused to sell to two people. One was a shady looking fellow who "lost his ID on the way up here but was good for it" and the other who refused to sign a bill of sale. Not interested in selling an AR to someone when I'm sure it will lead back to me in a felony murder case. Sketchy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MainelyGlock View Post
    +1. Same goes for selling, too. I've sold a few of the guns I owned via private sales, and I require a Maine ID and write up a bill of sale with the description, S/N, etc. I've refused to sell to two people. One was a shady looking fellow who "lost his ID on the way up here but was good for it" and the other who refused to sign a bill of sale. Not interested in selling an AR to someonewhen I'm sure it will lead back to me in a felony murder case. Sketchy!
    Why would you require a social security number? Even an FFL can't do that.

    Your social security number is a primary window to identity theft.

    Maine has a law that applies to this, other states have similar.

    No denial of goods or services. Except as otherwise provided in federal or state law, a
    person, corporation or other entity may not deny goods or services to an individual because the individual
    refuses to provide a social security number.

    http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/bills/bills_123rd/billpdfs/HP121301.pdf


    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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