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Thread: We need more LEOs like THIS one to join our forum...

  1. #1
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    We need more LEOs like THIS one to join our forum...

    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  2. #2
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Wow.
    Wish we could get anti's to read & understand that.
    It's exactly what most of us have known for a long time, but they stick their fingers in their ears & go "la la la la I can't hear you".
    Maybe coming from a cop it'd have more impact?
    Nah... they probably wouldn't believe it was really written by a LEO.
    I'm a bit surprised myself. And he's in CA, no less.
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort & convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge & controversy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie
    Citizenship is a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
    She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

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    And I wish some officers would understand that when we say "When seconds count the police are only minutes away" IS NOT A DIS TO POLICE. It is merely recognition that if you take the population of your town and divide that by the number of officers on the local force the result is each officer is outnumbered by at least 1000:1 AND IT IS AN ABSOLUTE IMPOSSIBILITY FOR THEM THE BE AT THE EXACT LOCATION THEY NEED TO BE WITH THE INFO THEY NEED TO DEAL WITH THE SITUATION AT HAND ALL THE TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if more LEO are understanding the necessity for citizen self-defense or if those who do understand it are becoming more obvious and vocal about it. I've certainly seen and heard an increase, at least in general support, from LEO in my parts of the world.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    We need more LEOs like THIS one to join our forum...
    Taking the above at face value, I sent the following email to Officer Smith, along with a link to this thread:

    Seems your 2/22 blog found some kindred spirits. I'm taking this opportunity to extend the "invitation" for you to join the forum. From reading a few of your entries I'm guessing you can stand up to the expressed frustration about some cops that at times seems to be about "all" cops. We (well, most of us) really do know the difference.

    stay safe.
    We'll keep our eyes open to see if he accepts.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  6. #6
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    I posted this on my facebook, now I got people thinking I'm against the police and being stupid. Really wish people would read and THINK before they commented on something they assume its against the police. Which this is not against the police of any sort, just a reality check that should be known.
    Nothing better than a Glock.........except maybe another Glock!

  7. #7
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    LOL I love that article..

  8. #8
    Regular Member WOD's Avatar
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    Cops are people too. Some just have a more colorful way of expressing themselves. Hope he does come over to OCDO, but chances are he'll hate having to not cuss. Good post.
    Be safe, be prepared, and carry on!

    Alle Ihre Basisstation jetzt zu uns gehören

  9. #9
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    I am actively applying and trying to become a police officer. So whatever city/county i end up in, will hopefully gain a better understanding of the laws on oc...

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    Agree 100%

    I agree with the officer. Defend yourselves, trying to teach my wife this. Love her to death but shes differnt than me.

    That being said as an officer myself, save some for me, I ran lights and sirens the whole way to your house and you already took care of it. Off to the gym to dump this adreneline.

  11. #11
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    Finally something refreshing to read. Don't see as many police officer thinking like this as you use to, maybe we are on a trend of more officers coming to that line of thinking? At least I hope we are on that trend.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jag06 View Post
    Finally something refreshing to read. Don't see as many police officer thinking like this as you use to, maybe we are on a trend of more officers coming to that line of thinking? At least I hope we are on that trend.
    I think that like with many other things (the real estate "crisis" of the last few years springs to mind as I am in that business) the problem with the media is that the really big boys and girls are really only in a very few areas and they tend to report report localized environments and opinions as if they are nationally valid. When they write about opinions or perspective on a certain matter they tend to go to urban areas, or high profile smaller areas, and ask usually politically involved administrators the department/union opinion. That opinion may not be reflected in a polling of the on-the-street LEO in average 35k population smallish city America.

  13. #13
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Officer Smith missed in my area by a bit...timing wise...But he is/was spot on as to why we need to be able to protect ourselves.

    under the best of circumstances, it will take any police response a minimum of 30 minutes, probably closer to 1 hour, to get to my house.....and our Sheriff's Deputies are absolutely insane when they are responding to a call...anybody want to bet that a Ford Explorer can't excede 120mph...well, I've been passed by a deputy down on the highway doing at least that fast, lights a going.... I don't want to know how fast they drive up here on the gravel, or worse yet, in the snow when an a call.

    Our Sheriff's department try's hard, but think about this: Our county has 41,000 or so people, in 5,315 square miles....that is, our county is almost the physical size of the STATE of Connecticut (5,543 square miles) I don't know how many deputies Sheriff Rogers has, but I'll bet it isn't a whole bunch.

  14. #14
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    Well, Here I Am...

    Thanks to skidmark for sending me an email telling me about this forum, and the reference to my blog.

    It has been almost a month since I received that email, and I just got around to reading it today. I guess I should check that email more often eh?

    Anyway, I am all for people being able to defend themselves when it is necessary. I DO NOT advocate shooting folks just for the sake of shooting them, but if your life or someone else's is in genuine danger, by all means you should be able to protect yourself.

    The interesting thing about me joining this forum, is I have developed rather a negative opinion about open carry here in California. Now that I've said that, don't just brush me aside without reading on and discovering why I have developed the opinions I have.

    Here we go...

    In California, we are one of the few states remaining where it is nearly impossible to obtain a concealed carry permit. Because of this, we have had a number of issues with folks who have taken to open carry, by carrying an unloaded pistol on one hip with loaded magazines on their other side. This used to comply with the law (until the laws were changed BECAUSE of the behavior of the open carry "activists").

    There are many reasons this form of open carry did not sit well with me.

    #1) If you are carrying an unloaded weapon, you are a target. Anyone who is illegally carrying a CONCEALED weapon can be on you before you have time to load, and they can take your gun from you without you being able to do anything. Gunfights take place in seconds. Seconds you will not have available to load your weapon. An unloaded pistol is nothing more than an expensive paperweight.

    #2) When a pistol is openly carried in a populated area in California, people freak out. While it is an every day sight to see someone walking around with a gun on their hip in Texas, it is not such a common sight in California, and the sheep here tend to get a little uptight when they see one and there is not a badge to go with it. It doesn't bother most cops, because we know what's up and how to deal with it. But the unfortunate fact is that the vast majority of folks here in the Nanny State believe guns are evil. You can blame that on many factors I don't have NEARLY enough room to delve into here. You would not BELIEVE how many people in my town I have suggested purchasing a gun to, who replied with "A GUN!? NOOOOOOOOO. Guns are dangerous. Etc."

    #3) The majority of the open carry folks in California seem to have an agenda. Every single one I have contacted was less interested in exercising their second amendment right, and more interested in trying to catch the police in a mistake so they could sue for a civil rights violation. Every last one has had a video recorder of some sort, has insisted upon recording our contact (which bothers me not at all), and insisted they knew the law and their rights (which most actually didn't). Most of the folks I spoke with were hesitant to let me inspect their weapon (as I HAVE A RIGHT TO DO). Some would refuse to even tell me their name. All were incredibly discourteous. When you give the outward impression that you are up to something, instead of preserving your rights you'll just get them legislated away, just like has happened here in California.

    So, the bottom line. Am I for the responsible carrying of some sort of defensive weapon by all folks who are not otherwise forbidden from possessing such (i.e. felons, parolees, mentally unstable, etc.)? Absolutely. Am I for open carry? Not the way I've seen it done around here. Am I dead set against it? Absolutely not. It just needs to be approached from a different direction and handled much more responsibly. The all around BEST way, in my opinion, is to make California a SHALL ISSUE state and eliminate the need for open carry altogether. But with the legislators we currently have in office, I doubt that's going to happen any time soon.

    We've all heard the saying that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Well in this case, it would appear the squeaky wheel just got removed from the wagon completely.

    On that note, thanks again for inviting me in.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer "Smith" View Post
    Thanks to skidmark for sending me an email telling me about this forum, and the reference to my blog.

    It has been almost a month since I received that email, and I just got around to reading it today. I guess I should check that email more often eh?
    Welcome.

    Anyway, I am all for people being able to defend themselves when it is necessary. I DO NOT advocate shooting folks just for the sake of shooting them, but if your life or someone else's is in genuine danger, by all means you should be able to protect yourself.
    I don't know why you felt the need to say this; I'm pretty damn confident that no one here advocates just shooting folks for the sake of it.

    The interesting thing about me joining this forum, is I have developed rather a negative opinion about open carry here in California. Now that I've said that, don't just brush me aside without reading on and discovering why I have developed the opinions I have.
    I'll give you the consideration you've asked for, if you'll give us some when we make our case for open carry.

    Here we go...

    In California, we are one of the few states remaining where it is nearly impossible to obtain a concealed carry permit. Because of this, we have had a number of issues with folks who have taken to open carry, by carrying an unloaded pistol on one hip with loaded magazines on their other side. This used to comply with the law (until the laws were changed BECAUSE of the behavior of the open carry "activists").
    No, I believe you can thank the law making POLITICIANS, not the law abiding citizens who believe in their rights.

    There are many reasons this form of open carry did not sit well with me.

    #1) If you are carrying an unloaded weapon, you are a target.
    So an unloaded weapon is basically a rock; therefore equivalent to an unarmed person. So, basically, an UNARMED person is a target for the bad guy, which would make the case that open carry of a firearm is a deterrent. Or are you making the argument that carrying a gun openly makes you the first to get shot? Which, if that is your argument, then why do cops OC?

    Anyone who is illegally carrying a CONCEALED weapon can be on you before you have time to load, and they can take your gun from you without you being able to do anything. Gunfights take place in seconds. Seconds you will not have available to load your weapon. An unloaded pistol is nothing more than an expensive paperweight.
    Agreed. Which is why California should not infringe on people's right to self defense, and let them carry a loaded firearm.

    #2) When a pistol is openly carried in a populated area in California, people freak out.
    Soooooo? There is no "right" to not be freaked out or offended. If people can't deal with that, they need to call their therapist for more happy pills, or stop going out in public.

    While it is an every day sight to see someone walking around with a gun on their hip in Texas,
    Umm, you might want to get your facts straight. Texas is a NON PERMISSIVE open carry state. Meaning open carry is either highly restricted or banned altogether. It might seem petty for me to point this out, but when you want your argument to stand up to logic, it helps to be factual.

    it is not such a common sight in California, and the sheep here tend to get a little uptight when they see one and there is not a badge to go with it. It doesn't bother most cops, because we know what's up and how to deal with it. But the unfortunate fact is that the vast majority of folks here in the Nanny State believe guns are evil. You can blame that on many factors I don't have NEARLY enough room to delve into here. You would not BELIEVE how many people in my town I have suggested purchasing a gun to, who replied with "A GUN!? NOOOOOOOOO. Guns are dangerous. Etc."
    So the solution is to object to open carry, because the sheep object? Why wouldn't you try to explain to them a gun is no more dangerous than a drill, a car or any other human operated tool?

    #3) The majority of the open carry folks in California seem to have an agenda. Every single one I have contacted was less interested in exercising their second amendment right, and more interested in trying to catch the police in a mistake so they could sue for a civil rights violation.
    I don't condone those who are hoping to catch a lawsuit with their actions, but you are automatically concluding that ALL open carriers must be litigious, manipulative schemers. Has it occurred to you that those few individuals wouldn't have a chance of suing, if there weren't issues of cops violating civil rights to begin with?

    Every last one has had a video recorder of some sort, has insisted upon recording our contact (which bothers me not at all),
    I can't insist you turn off your dashcam. And if the dashcam were to capture something unfavorable for a cop, and that footage mysteriously disappeared....can you see how people want to protect themselves? Generally a cops word weighs more in court than ours do.

    and insisted they knew the law and their rights (which most actually didn't).
    Is this fact or speculation? Did you attempt to help them learn their rights?

    Most of the folks I spoke with were hesitant to let me inspect their weapon (as I HAVE A RIGHT TO DO).
    You have a RIGHT to inspect someones weapon? NO. You have the un-constitutional AUTHORITY to preform an e-check, but you don't have a RIGHT to do so. RIGHTS and AUTHORITY are different.

    Some would refuse to even tell me their name. All were incredibly discourteous. When you give the outward impression that you are up to something, instead of preserving your rights you'll just get them legislated away, just like has happened here in California.
    By "discourteous", do you mean they were actually flat out rude, or did they just not cooperate with every request/demand that you made, lawful or not? There is a difference. And there is no obligation for us to be polite during an encounter. Deal with it.

    So, the bottom line. Am I for the responsible carrying of some sort of defensive weapon by all folks who are not otherwise forbidden from possessing such (i.e. felons, parolees, mentally unstable, etc.)? Absolutely. Am I for open carry? Not the way I've seen it done around here. Am I dead set against it? Absolutely not. It just needs to be approached from a different direction and handled much more responsibly.
    So, you're for people exercising their rights, but only if they do it the way YOU think they should? And how has it been "un-responsible" so far?

    The all around BEST way, in my opinion, is to make California a SHALL ISSUE state and eliminate the need for open carry altogether. But with the legislators we currently have in office, I doubt that's going to happen any time soon.
    I'm fairly certain the only way to eliminate the NEED for open carry would be to remove all possible strains of criminal elements in our society, present and future. Even if that were possible, and achieved, people still have the RIGHT to carry how they like. No matter how much you want to legislate it away.

    We've all heard the saying that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Well in this case, it would appear the squeaky wheel just got removed from the wagon completely.
    Place the blame where it belongs; with corrupt, power hungry politicians, not law abiding citizens.

    On that note, thanks again for inviting me in.
    Hopefully you'll learn a lot during your stay here. Perhaps you'll be more open minded than the other officers who've dropped by.

  16. #16
    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    Officer "Smith" is correct regarding Texas attitudes in that a holstered handgun isn't likely to freak out folks in the Alamo State like it might in the peoples' utopia (CA), but habitual (licensed) open carry of a handgun is still illegal in Texas- for now.

    Remember the movie "The Great Escape" ? Recall how the POW's "salted" the dirt from their tunneling around the camp with stealth and discretion so that it went unnoticed by the guards ?

    I'm not suggesting that open carry not be "open" - but in "freaky" environments perhaps just maybe a bit more discrete.
    Last edited by rushcreek2; 04-01-2012 at 07:46 PM.

  17. #17
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum, Smith.

    I think it's a good thing to have some more LEO participation here. An exchange of information, knowledge, opinions, critiques is beneficial to all parties. I recall we used to have a fellow named LEO 229 who was a very active participant on OCDO and made a big contribution here. He was not shy about his observations and opinions. I hope you will not be either, as we will probably be better off from the discussion of subjects of mutual interest.

    I've got one quick area question. It's about this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer "Smith" View Post
    In California, we are one of the few states remaining where it is nearly impossible to obtain a concealed carry permit. Because of this, we have had a number of issues with folks who have taken to open carry, by carrying an unloaded pistol on one hip with loaded magazines on their other side.
    Why is California lagging behind the vast majority of states in allowing concealed carry? What are the reasons for this from the politicians' level, the LE community and from the citizenry and LE? Most of the country now understands that strictly prohibiting gun ownership and carry is NOT "reasonable regulation" as allowed by recent SCOTUS decisions. And I'm not even sure that some law-abiding gun owners wouldn't continue to desire to OC in lieu of CC, if California were to catch up to the rest of the country. People OC and CC in, for example, Virginia. Why should California be different?

    Again, welcome aboard.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer "Smith" View Post
    SNIP Anyway, I am all for people being able to...
    [Citizen is going to place nice]

    [Also, its April Fools day, so even if he wasn't going to place nice, he'd wait for a few more posts on later days before pouncing. ]
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  19. #19
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Welcome aboard!

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer "Smith"
    In California... it is nearly impossible to obtain a concealed carry permit.
    Because of this, we have had a number of issues with folks who have taken to open carry
    So people were trying to follow an unconstitutional law while still having some means to defend themselves.
    I think the problem was with the unconstitutional law, not with the citizens.

    If you are carrying an unloaded weapon, you are a target.
    Unless a criminal takes the time to get behind me & observe that the magazine well is empty, it'll look just like a loaded pistol. (And with a revolver, they don't even get that clue.) With the criminal tendency to go for easy targets, and the general assumption that anyone with a gun in public must be a cop, criminals avoid attacking people who look able to defend themselves.

    Anyone who is illegally carrying a CONCEALED weapon can be on you before you have time to load, and they can take your gun from you without you being able to do anything
    Agreed. So by its laws the State is endangering the health & safety of its citizens.
    Shame on them.
    One of the legitimate responsibilities of government is protecting the rights of citizens. Another is protecting their safety, at least to the extent of not doing something to endanger them.
    (Let me see if I can phrase that better - gov't isn't responsible for actively trying to keep people safe, but it should not make policies which put people in danger.)

    I read this evening about an elderly woman in Michigan who had gotten a purchase permit & carry license, but had bought something she couldn't control or use. Because of the time & red tape involved in getting a permit to purchase, she hadn't yet gotten permission to get something more suitable to her physical abilities... and she was murdered when someone broke into her home.

    When a pistol is openly carried in a populated area in California, people freak out.
    While it is an every day sight to see someone walking around with a gun on their hip in Texas
    It's already been pointed out that OC isn't generally allowed in TX. My understanding is that it's OK on private property [home, ranch] & when "travelling", but there's no definition of that. I just looked through the TX PDF on www.handgunlaw.us & they don't specifically say where OC is legal, only that in general it must be concealed, which includes not being "discernable to ordinary observation".
    And that "people freak out" line has been used in many places to try to deny open carry.

    As a counter, I'll offer my observation from carrying around my metro area: people generally don't notice. Those who do usually also manage to realize I'm behaving just like everyone else - pushing a grocery cart, for example, or standing in line at the bank - and don't freak out.
    Here are videos of me OC in various places around Milwaukee.
    At a home-improvement store, 30DEC10.
    Same day, at the grocery.
    Same home-improvement chain, different store, different day; 16NOV10.
    At my bank 21OCT10.
    These were all done with a pen camera, so people had no idea they were being filmed. I see nothing resembling fear on anyone's face. These were taken about 18mo after the WI AG issued a memo saying that OC /= DC & OC started being more common. We didn't have cc until last NOV (2011), so all of these are me with a full-size Glock quite visible on my hip.

    The majority of the open carry folks in California seem to have an agenda.
    Mine is probably the same as yours: go to bed in my own bed that night in approximately the same condition I woke up there that morning.
    But even if someone has an agenda which is more objectionable to some, so what?
    Political rallies are objectionable at times & are also protected free speech.

    Every single one I have contacted was less interested in exercising their second amendment right, and more interested in trying to catch the police in a mistake so they could sue for a civil rights violation. Every last one has had a video recorder of some sort
    Video or audio recorders are for our protection like your dash cam can be for you.
    I won a suit because I had video/audio evidence (made by that same pen camera) which showed that the sworn statments by PD employees were largely fabrications, having little resemblance to reality. (An open records problem, not civil rights.)
    And as others pointed out, there wouldn't be anything to sue about if the laws were followed.
    And again, even if their agenda is to police the police, it's not illegal.

    Personally, my reasons for carry are about 96% personal protection, 2% because I can, and 2% education of people around me.
    Other people have other distributions.
    One of the best ways to educate someone is to be a good example. When I carry I am generally more deliberate about being pleasant than when I don't, because I want to make a good impression. Even if that is only "I saw someone grocery shopping today, she was wearing a gun, & nothing bad happened".

    Some would refuse to even tell me their name.
    What's the first line of the Miranda warning?
    What's the 5th Amendment?

    All were incredibly discourteous.
    Could you be more specific? Was it just not doing everything you wanted them to, or were they yelling, swearing, calling you names, being sarcastic, talking over you, invading your personal space, etc.?
    (N.B.: those are all things which officers have been caught on video doing to citizens.)

    make California a SHALL ISSUE state and eliminate the need for open carry altogether.
    Give everyone a motorcycle & eliminate the need for bicycles altogether.
    Give everyone a kilt & eliminate the need for pants altogether.
    OC/cc is (or at least, would be, if rights were not infringed) as much a personal choice as "what shirt should I wear today?".
    There are reasons OC is better in some situations, & reasons cc is better in some situations.
    My grouping/division is probably different from yours.
    Our circumstances are different.
    Our choices will be different.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 04-07-2012 at 11:34 AM. Reason: spelling

  20. #20
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen
    [Citizen is going to play nice]
    [Also, it's April Fools day, so even if he wasn't going to play nice, he'd wait for a few more posts on later days before pouncing. ]
    FTFY
    While I'm pretty sure our newest addition is perfectly capable of holding his own, PLEASE be nice... at least 'til he gets his feet under him.
    He'll probably be more open to changing his thinking on certain things if we're civil.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    If I weren't already planning to vote for RON PAUL in 2012 I'd give this guy my vote!! He's got more COMMON SENSE in his pinkie finger than Obamy has in his whole body!!!!!

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    A little late, but "Welcome, Officer Smith." Like you I can get behind in my reading.

    It seems you have already been fisked and raked over the coals for some of the stuff you wrote. I hope you expected that, and tok notice of te fact that in spite of that nobody is calling for your head on a pike.

    A comment or two -

    Everybody who OCs (or CCs for that matter) has an agenda. Some are more blatant about it than others. As for the Cali folks - just a thought but most folks put in their position (UOC only, needing an act of God or political connections to get a CC permit, etc.) would want to fight back against both the overt and implied statements the law makes against them.

    While I can understand LEOs checking to see that LACs are (were) complying with the law, what was up with running serial numbers? How did that help assure folks complied with the UOC requirement?

    You have pointed out that UOC is really just carrying around a paperweight. Being a cop, you know the response tmes after 9-1-1 has received the call and passed the information on to dispatch. Add in the time it takes to get basic info from a (possibly) hysterical person in the middle of being a crime victim and tell me that relying on the cops for anything more than to come out and look for evidence is anywhere near a good idea. Do you dare?

    Discounting folks who go stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things, how many times have you investigated a situation where someone with good situational awareness and a decent attempt at avoidance still found themself a victim? Then tell me how many people on the street you see with even mediocre situational awareness.

    Suppose that FOPA did not exist and you had to live like the rest of the hoi poloi when out of uniform. How would you feel? And suppose that your local sheriff would not sign off on a CC permit unless you had actually been attacked by someone who communicated a verifiable threat against you - but decided anyhow that if that person ended up being jailed you did not need the permit?

    What it seems to boil down to is what we call the "Only Ones" syndrome. Everywhere else where OC is allowed (and even where CC was newly allowed) the warnings of blood in the streets has never materialized. So what exactly is it that you want to stop from happening by not allowing folks to OC?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  23. #23
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Last September, about eight of us met up for a lunch at Virginia BBQ in eastern Manassas and one of the OCDO members was a transplant from California where he had been a LEO I believe in the LA area. He said the difference between Virginia and California was like night and day regarding attitudes about citizens carrying firearms from both the general public and the police. It was a real pleasure talking to this man and hearing all he had to say. Folks who live in states like California, Illinois, Massachusetts, New York, and New Jersey and are native to those states fail to see, understand, and even believe that people in states like Virginia who carry rarely have problems with the police or public. They are of the mindset that when an officer sees an OC'er, that citizen is probably going to windup being cuffed and perhaps thrown to the ground with a knee in his back (yes, people have said this to me on other websites). They make the mistake of viewing these things through tainted glasses without thinking for a moment that there is a different world out there when they leave their state and experience normalcy.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 04-07-2012 at 08:50 AM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  24. #24
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Folks who live in states like California, Illinois, Massachusetts, New York, and New Jersey and are native to those states fail to see, understand, and even believe that people in states like Virginia who carry rarely have problems with the police or public. They are of the mindset that when an officer sees an OC'er, that citizen is probably going to windup being cuffed and perhaps thrown to the groun

    Don't forget your neighbors to the north, across the moat, in the People's Republic of Maryland...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  25. #25
    Regular Member BurgerBoy's Avatar
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    I've never had any trouble, or scared people, when I OC in Kentucky either. I OC a full size Ruger P95PR15 with an extra 15 round magazine with me.

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