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Thread: Carrying while dropping off/picking up kid from school (sorry, tried to search).

  1. #1
    Regular Member msteinhilber's Avatar
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    Carrying while dropping off/picking up kid from school (sorry, tried to search).

    I'm sure this was addressed here before, I remember seeing a thread but can't locate it since my search results bring up all the forums rather than just the WI sub-forum.

    Anyways, my boy starts kindergarten later this year and I want to make sure my understanding of the law is correct - I do have my CCL.

    From my understanding, if I am parked on the street I can carry openly or concealed as long as I don't step foot on school property. Should I pull into the school parking lot or bus loading/unloading zones many schools have, then I'll need to have my firearm unloaded and encased and out of reach. Sound about right?

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    That's pretty much right. Some states make allowances for remaining in a vehicle, but a policy of playing it safe by staying off the property should make you safe in any state that allows carry.

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    Regular Member oldbanger's Avatar
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    You may NOT open carry in a car. ~ not my words ~ http://www.opencarry.org/wi.html

    s. 948.61 (1) (b) "School" means a public school, parochial or private school, or tribal school, as defined in s. 115.001 (15m), which provides an educational program for one or more grades between grades 1 and 12 and which is commonly known as an elementary school, middle school, junior high school, senior high school, or high school.

    Where is the kindergarten?

    (1)  Definitions. In this section:
    (a) "Encased" has the meaning given in s. 167.31 (1) (b).
    (ac) "Firearm" does not include any beebee or pellet-firing gun that expels a projectile through the force of air pressure or any starter pistol.
    (am) "Motor vehicle" has the meaning given in s. 340.01 (35).
    (b) "School" has the meaning given in s. 948.61 (1) (b).
    (c) "School zone" means any of the following:
    1. In or on the grounds of a school.
    2. Within 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school.
    (2) Possession of firearm in school zone.
    (a) Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is in or on the grounds of a school is guilty of a Class I felony. Any individual who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school is subject to a Class B forfeiture.
    (b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm by any of the following:
    1m. A person who possesses the firearm in accordance with 18 USC 922 (q) (2) (B) (i), (iv), (v), (vi), or (vii).
    1r. Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).
    2m. A state-certified commission warden acting in his or her official capacity.
    3. That is not loaded and is:
    a. Encased; or
    b. In a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...es/948/605/2/a
    Last edited by oldbanger; 02-24-2012 at 06:08 PM. Reason: OCDO link

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldbanger View Post
    YES you can open carry in a car. With a CCL you can open carry in a car in a school zone just not on the grounds.

    Without a CCL you can still open carry in a car provided its not concealed according to some outdated case law that hopefully will be challenged soon. You also must also stay out of school zones but since the OP has a CCL he dosen't have to worry about it.


    Back to the original question, you are fine as long as you are not on school property. I assume the loading zones and bus stops are the type that are off the street and run past the school? If that's the case you cannot have a firearm unless its cased and unloaded as that is school grounds like a parking lot. So I believe you are correct in your original post.

    The tricky part is, is the sidewalk considered school grounds? Common sense says I should be able to walk past a school while carrying a firearm as long as I have my permission slip and I stay in the sidewalk parallel to the street. The problem is common sense and the law can be pretty far apart.




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    Regular Member oliverclotheshoff's Avatar
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    the sidewalk is in the public right away
    all roads have a right away and different types of roads have different right aways either measured from the center of the road or measured from the edge of road but the main thing is all roads have a right away and sidewalks are included in the right away
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    Regular Member msteinhilber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason in WI View Post
    YES you can open carry in a car. With a CCL you can open carry in a car in a school zone just not on the grounds.

    Without a CCL you can still open carry in a car provided its not concealed according to some outdated case law that hopefully will be challenged soon. You also must also stay out of school zones but since the OP has a CCL he dosen't have to worry about it.


    Back to the original question, you are fine as long as you are not on school property. I assume the loading zones and bus stops are the type that are off the street and run past the school? If that's the case you cannot have a firearm unless its cased and unloaded as that is school grounds like a parking lot. So I believe you are correct in your original post.

    The tricky part is, is the sidewalk considered school grounds? Common sense says I should be able to walk past a school while carrying a firearm as long as I have my permission slip and I stay in the sidewalk parallel to the street. The problem is common sense and the law can be pretty far apart.




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    Yep, that's how the loading zones and bus stops are. I thought I was more or less correct, just wanted to make sure. Not ideal by any means, but it looks like I will be spending at least a little while unloading and encasing my firearm while my boy gets adjusted to school.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason in WI View Post
    The tricky part is, is the sidewalk considered school grounds? Common sense says I should be able to walk past a school while carrying a firearm as long as I have my permission slip and I stay in the sidewalk parallel to the street.
    For what it's worth, Madison PD told me that their understanding is that being on the sidewalk is okay as long as one doesn't step off onto the "grounds."
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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    For what it's worth, Madison PD told me...

    WHAT, you were talking to cops???



    LOL!!!
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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    I like WA law, I am allowed to carry on premises (anywhere outside a building) while picking up or droping off a student (RCW 9.41.280(3)(e)).

    While I can see (from posts here) this is not how your laws are written, it might be something that you could try and achieve in one of your upcoming legislative sessions...

    Stay Safe.
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 02-24-2012 at 04:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason in WI View Post
    YES you can open carry in a car. With a CCL you can open carry in a car in a school zone just not on the grounds.
    Somebody better update that web page.

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    http://www.doj.wi.gov/dles/cib/Conce...q-20111020.pdf


    Per DOJ FAQ page 45

    What are the exceptions?

    The following are exceptions to the prohibition on possessing dangerous weapons on school premises by the following persons:

     A person who uses a weapon solely for school sanctioned purposes. Wis. Stat. 948.61(3)(a).
     A person who engages in military activities sponsored by the federal or state government when acting in the discharge of his or her official duties. Wis. Stat. 948.61(3)(b).
     A person who Is a law enforcement officer or state certified commission warden acting in the discharge of his or her official duties. Wis. Stat. 948.61(3)(c).
     A person who is participating in a convocation authorized by school authorities in which weapons of collectors or instructors are handled or displayed. Wis. Stat. 948.61(3)(d).
     A person who drives a motor vehicle in which a dangerous weapon is located onto school premises for school sanctioned purposes or for the purpose of delivering or picking up passengers or property if the weapon is not removed from the vehicle or used in any way. Wis. Stat. 948.61(3)(e).
     A person who possesses or uses a bow and arrow or knife while legally hunting in a school forest if the school board has decided that hunting may be allowed in the school forest. Wis. Stat. 948.61(3)(f).

    Can a person with a CCW license carry a concealed weapon other than a firearm on school premises?

    Generally no, unless the licensee falls within one of the exceptions listed above. Wis. Stat. 948.61(2) and (3).
    Last edited by 2superblus; 02-24-2012 at 03:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Motofixxer View Post
    WHAT, you were talking to cops???



    LOL!!!
    Indeed I did! Back in October or November, I was given a tour of their new training facility which is located about 5 minutes from my house. Nice facility, and I hope I'll get invited to shoot at what looks to be an great indoor range someday.

    Sgt. Sweeney is a decent guy and I was encouraged that Madison PD wants to get it right when it comes to gun carriers and to not make, ahem, mistakes as in the past.
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    Regular Member oldbanger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msteinhilber View Post
    Yep, that's how the loading zones and bus stops are. I thought I was more or less correct, just wanted to make sure. Not ideal by any means, but it looks like I will be spending at least a little while unloading and encasing my firearm while my boy gets adjusted to school.
    Is the kindergarten in a "school" as defined in my post above?

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    Regular Member msteinhilber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldbanger View Post
    Is the kindergarten in a "school" as defined in my post above?
    Yes.

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    No a kindergarten is not considered a school as far as that statute is concerned. I believe that someone tried to introduce legislation to include it, of course they also want to prohibit carry on gas station property too.

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  16. #16
    Regular Member msteinhilber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason in WI View Post
    No a kindergarten is not considered a school as far as that statute is concerned. I believe that someone tried to introduce legislation to include it, of course they also want to prohibit carry on gas station property too.

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    That's just a technicality though, as it's in the same building where they teach 1st and 2nd grade as well and at least one and perhaps two of the kindergarten classes this year are going to be full day K-1 mixed classes where the kindergarten and 1st graders are in the same class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msteinhilber View Post
    That's just a technicality though, ...
    LOL You go to jail for a "technicality" just like for thieving and lying, as the old saw goes.

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2superblus View Post
    http://www.doj.wi.gov/dles/cib/conce...q-20111020.pdf
     a person who drives a motor vehicle in which a dangerous weapon is located onto school premises for school sanctioned purposes or for the purpose of delivering or picking up passengers or property if the weapon is not removed from the vehicle or used in any way. Wis. Stat. 948.61(3)(e).
    (3).

    this.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

  19. #19
    Regular Member msteinhilber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    this.
    No, that is regarding a "dangerous weapon" and NOT a firearm.

    As per the FAQ linked:

    "It is a crime to possess a dangerous weapon (other than a firearm or BB or pellet gun) on or in any school building, school grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated for school administration."

  20. #20
    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msteinhilber View Post
    No, that is regarding a "dangerous weapon" and NOT a firearm.

    As per the FAQ linked:

    "It is a crime to possess a dangerous weapon (other than a firearm or BB or pellet gun) on or in any school building, school grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated for school administration."
    So your saying the State doesnt consider a firearm a "dangerous weapon?

    Chapter 939 939.22(10)
    (10) "Dangerous weapon" means any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded; any device designed as a weapon and capable of producing death or ...

    Your cite is on those grounds, not in your car.
    Last edited by bigdaddy1; 02-25-2012 at 03:54 PM.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2superblus View Post
    http://www.doj.wi.gov/dles/cib/Conce...q-20111020.pdf


    Per DOJ FAQ page 45 (actually identified in the FAQ document as - 38 -)

    B. Other weapons

    Are there limits on possessing other weapons on school premises?

    Yes. It is a crime to possess a dangerous weapon (other than a firearm or BB or pellet gun) on or in any school building, school grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated for school administration. Wis. Stat. 948.61.
    School is defined as a public, parochial or private, or tribal school that provides educational programs for one or more grades between grades 1 and 12 (elementary, middle, junior high and high school). Wis. Stat. 948.61(1)(b).


    What are the exceptions?

    The following are exceptions to the prohibition on possessing dangerous weapons on school premises by the following persons:

     A person who uses a weapon solely for school sanctioned purposes. Wis. Stat. 948.61(3)(a).
     A person who engages in military activities sponsored by the federal or state government when acting in the discharge of his or her official duties. Wis. Stat. 948.61(3)(b).
     A person who Is a law enforcement officer or state certified commission warden acting in the discharge of his or her official duties. Wis. Stat. 948.61(3)(c).
     A person who is participating in a convocation authorized by school authorities in which weapons of collectors or instructors are handled or displayed. Wis. Stat. 948.61(3)(d).
     A person who drives a motor vehicle in which a dangerous weapon is located onto school premises for school sanctioned purposes or for the purpose of delivering or picking up passengers or property if the weapon is not removed from the vehicle or used in any way. Wis. Stat. 948.61(3)(e).
     A person who possesses or uses a bow and arrow or knife while legally hunting in a school forest if the school board has decided that hunting may be allowed in the school forest. Wis. Stat. 948.61(3)(f).

    Can a person with a CCW license carry a concealed weapon other than a firearm on school premises?

    Generally no, unless the licensee falls within one of the exceptions listed above. Wis. Stat. 948.61(2) and (3).
    Difficult to know where to start in replying to this "citation"

    I added the paragraphs from the FAQ, before the included "citation" that identify this information as being summarized from Wisconsin Statute 948.61 which is titled: Dangerous weapons other than Firearms on school premises
    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...tatutes/948/61 The paragraphs also indicated that this "exception" pertains to OTHER WEAPONS. This does not pertain to firearms.

    As the title to that statute makes clear, THAT statute contains NO regulations, or exceptions, that apply to Firearms.

    The statute that really applies to firearms on school grounds, is 948.605 Gun-free School Zones
    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...atutes/948/605

    A regular, non-Leo person, with or without a CCL, who is IN or ON the school grounds (in a building, on foot, in a car, wheelchair, whatever) has to have the firearm unloaded and encased, OR unloaded and locked in a firearms rack that is mounted on a motor vehicle.
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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    What do you think the chances are of getting JB to provide an official opinion on this? Similar to his opinion on open carry? I think I will send a request.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

  23. #23
    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    I have heard through the grapevine that locally the Leo's are being told to get a License to get around the schoolzone issue, and they are being told they can't be on school grounds unless they are on duty. So some of the regulations are being spread...But it is all hearsay at this point.
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     A person who engages in military activities sponsored by the federal or state government when acting in the discharge of his or her official duties. Wis. Stat. 948.61(3)(b).


    so is this the statute that might be used justify allowing the Veterans/VFW members to carry guns at the start of the Monona parade which starts AT the Monona-Grove High School? Ive wondered about that and how theyd get around carrying wherethey do...

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    Quote Originally Posted by msteinhilber View Post
    I'm sure this was addressed here before, I remember seeing a thread but can't locate it since my search results bring up all the forums rather than just the WI sub-forum.

    Anyways, my boy starts kindergarten later this year and I want to make sure my understanding of the law is correct - I do have my CCL.

    From my understanding, if I am parked on the street I can carry openly or concealed as long as I don't step foot on school property. Should I pull into the school parking lot or bus loading/unloading zones many schools have, then I'll need to have my firearm unloaded and encased and out of reach. Sound about right?
    Why don't you just follow the law instead of looking for ways around it?

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