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Thread: Are you obligated to give a LEO ID/ Permit?

  1. #1
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    Are you obligated to give a LEO ID/ Permit?

    When out and OCing, and a LEO stops you, you are doing nothing wrong, are you obligated to give him ID and wpn permit? Is it not your right to OC if the state you reside in allows you to OC. I reside in GA. Although GA is not typically an OC state your are authorized to OC if you have a carry permit. Any help or link where I can find it in the law would be great. Thanks for the help in advance.
    V/R
    Chris

  2. #2
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Ask the moderator/administrators to move your question to your state's sub-forum as a complete correct answer depends on your state's laws.

    In general you cannot be compelled to surrender your Fourth and Fifth Amendment Rights to privacy and security in your person, papers and effects or be compelled to incriminate yourself. Once cause to compel surrender of your Fourth Amendment Rights is established then you are protected from potential self-incrimination by your Fifth Amendment Right.

    Carrying a gun may make you liable to greater restrictions in your state law. In Wisconsin, the privilege of carrying a concealed weapon is dependent on your voluntarily surrendering ones Fourth Amendment Right and identification papers and privilege permit "concealed carry license."

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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Your question is state specific. It depends on if your state has a stop and identify statue that gives the officers the ability. Most states do not have the requirement to identify without conditions being met, such as RAS of a crime. You will want to review your local laws or post in your states sub forum.

    Here is another general thread about identifying. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...d.php?97872-ID
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    Here is another general thread about identifying. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...d.php?97872-ID
    Yes, but that thread has been corrupted and forked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    Your question is state specific. It depends on if your state has a stop and identify statue that gives the officers the ability. Most states do not have the requirement to identify without conditions being met, such as RAS of a crime. You will want to review your local laws or post in your states sub forum.

    Here is another general thread about identifying. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...d.php?97872-ID
    Actually, the question isn't about 'stop and ID,' it is about whether ID and permit can be demanded for carrying. Do you know of any state that compels presentation of an Identification card for "stop and ID?"


    The OP question is very state-specific, and is only relevant where the act of carrying a firearm is only a licensed activity.
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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    Actually, the question isn't about 'stop and ID,' it is about whether ID and permit can be demanded for carrying. Do you know of any state that compels presentation of an Identification card for "stop and ID?"


    The OP question is very state-specific, and is only relevant where the act of carrying a firearm is only a licensed activity.
    Having a stop and identify statue could enable an officer to stop you for any reason he sees fit or no reason at all. I never stated that an individual had to provide an I'D card. However, with that said I don't know every states law, one could include the requirement of providing your I'D if you have it on your person (i don't know). Ruling this out without knowing for sure could be a mistake. Court case Hiibel did not rule on if providing ID card where specified or required by law was a violation of 4th, leaving this open.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 02-25-2012 at 01:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    Having a stop and identify statue could enable an officer to stop you for any reason he sees fit or no reason at all.
    No, that is not accurate. "Stop and ID" statutes are only applicable under RAS, not for 'any reason sees fit,' and especially 'no reason at all.'


    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay
    I never stated that an individual had to provide an I'D card.
    That is my point. The OP asked that question, and your response had nothing to do with the question asked.
    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay
    However, with that said I don't know every states law, one could include the requirement of providing your I'D if you have it on your person (i don't know). Ruling this out without knowing for sure could be a mistake. Court case Hiibel left the requirement of providing ID card open, if the law stated it.
    Yes, it did. And unless a Stop and ID statute specifies presenting an actual physical ID card, it is irrelevant to the question asked by the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmr287 View Post
    When out and OCing, and a LEO stops you, you are doing nothing wrong, are you obligated to give him ID and wpn permit?
    That question isn't a 'stop and ID' question. It is a 'do I have to hand over a permission slip and ID' question.
    Last edited by wrightme; 02-25-2012 at 01:01 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    The OP said ID, but when people say ID they may also be including simply identifying themselves. I don't want to assume that he was specifically saying only ID card. If we were to say no, and he goes out and decides that he does not need to provide name, etc per a state stop and id statue I don't want to be the cause of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    No, that is not accurate. "Stop and ID" statutes are only applicable under RAS, not for 'any reason sees fit,' and especially 'no reason at all.'


    That is my point. The OP asked that question, and your response had nothing to do with the question asked.
    Yes, it did. And unless a Stop and ID statute specifies presenting an actual physical ID card, it is irrelevant to the question asked by the OP.
    Some states not not require full RAS for there stop and identify statue, for instance just time and place might suffice.

    As for a state that requires you provide ID card, while it is with ras Colorado seems to. Simply implying it does not exist in all 50 states like you are is jumping to conclusion if you don't know all state laws.

    16-3-103. Stopping of suspect. (1) A peace officer may stop any person who he reasonably suspects is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a crime and may require him to give his name and address, identification if available, and an explanation of his actions. A PEACE OFFICER SHALL NOT REQUIRE ANY PERSON WHO IS STOPPED PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION TO PRODUCE OR DIVULGE SUCH PERSON'S SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER. The stopping shall not constitute an arrest.
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 02-25-2012 at 01:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    The OP said ID, but when people say ID they may also be including simply identifying themselves. I don't want to assume that he was specifically saying only ID card. If we were to say no, and he goes out and decides that he does not need to provide name, etc per a state stop and id statue I don't want to be the cause of that.
    Yet the OP was clear.


    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay
    Some states not not require full RAS for there stop and identify statue, for instance just time and place might suffice.
    That is likely to be counter to SCOTUS decision under Terry v Ohio, and Hiibel then.
    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay
    As for a state that requires you provide ID card, while it is with ras Colorado seems to. Simply implying it does not exist in all 50 states like you are is jumping to conclusion if you don't know all state laws.
    I did not imply such. I DO know that "stop and ID" statutes are not in all states. I also am aware that very few IF ANY require a physical ID. CA used to, but Kolendor struck it down.
    If you feel some state does allow stop and ID without RAS, cite to authority.
    Last edited by wrightme; 02-25-2012 at 01:21 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    No, that is not accurate. "Stop and ID" statutes are only applicable under RAS, not for 'any reason sees fit,' and especially 'no reason at all.'
    That is not accurate. While it may be accurate in most states, I wouldn't say in all.

    Arkansas:
    5-71-213(a)(1) Lingers, remains, or prowls in a public place or the premises of another without apparent reason and under circumstances that warrant alarm or concern for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity and, `upon inquiry by a law enforcement officer, refuses to identify himself or herself and give a reasonably credible account of his or her presence and purpose;
    I would say simply being in a location and warranting alarm is hard to show RAS. In this case, you are written a ticket for loitering if you don't ID.
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 02-25-2012 at 01:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    That is not accurate. While it may be accurate in most states, I wouldn't say in all.
    That specific you cite is against Terry v Ohio and Hiibel.


    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay
    I would say simply being in a location and warranting alarm is not RAS. In this case, you are written a ticket for loitering if you don't ID.
    I would say that such statute is unconstitutional.

    Unless the following proviso is considered as 'RAS' and not as mere 'time and location.'
    "under circumstances that warrant alarm or concern for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity"


    Without RAS, a stop is by SCOTUS definition, consensual.
    Last edited by wrightme; 02-25-2012 at 01:39 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    That specific you cite is against Terry v Ohio and Hiibel.


    I woudl say that such statute is unconstitutional.

    Unless the following proviso is considered as 'RAS' and not as mere 'time and location.'
    "under circumstances that warrant alarm or concern for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity"
    I am not arguing that point. The point I am making, is the statues may exist in some states. I don't know if they have been challenged or anything. But if they are still on the books, and you fail to ID you may be looking for a ride. You may beat the wrap but you won't beat the ride.

    Best advice I can give to the OP, is know/learn your state law and any court rulings related. The folks in your states sub-forum are typically the best place for information or if your really concerned consult a lawyer.

    IANAL
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 02-25-2012 at 01:29 PM.
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmr287 View Post
    When out and OCing, and a LEO stops you, you are doing nothing wrong, are you obligated to give him ID and wpn permit? Is it not your right to OC if the state you reside in allows you to OC. I reside in GA. Although GA is not typically an OC state your are authorized to OC if you have a carry permit. Any help or link where I can find it in the law would be great. Thanks for the help in advance.
    V/R
    Chris
    Specifically for Georgia
    Short answer, "No"
    Long answer, Georgia has no "Stop and Identify" law, the closest we have is § 16-11-36 - Loitering or prowling

    Perhaps the best place to find all relevant laws pertaining to firearms in Georgia is Georgia Packing's summary.

    You are required to have and present your driver's permit, when stopped while driving.
    You are not required to present your Georgia Weapons License (either driving, walking, biking, swimming, or any other time), but you Are required by law to possess one.
    (A bit of an odd thing, the law states "immediate possession" in regards to the driver's license, but only "possession" in regards to the GWL.)
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 02-25-2012 at 01:41 PM.

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    IN Tennessee we have a HCP or handgun carry permit. We can carry open or concelled, however if ask but LEO to show permit you must comply buy state law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Specifically for Georgia
    Short answer, "No"
    Long answer, Georgia has no "Stop and Identify" law, the closest we have is § 16-11-36 - Loitering or prowling
    "(a) A person commits the offense of loitering or prowling when he is in a place at a time or in a manner not usual for law-abiding individuals under circumstances that warrant a justifiable and reasonable alarm or immediate concern for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity.

    (b) Among the circumstances which may be considered in determining whether alarm is warranted is the fact that the person takes flight upon the appearance of a law enforcement officer, refuses to identify himself, or manifestly endeavors to conceal himself or any object. Unless flight by the person or other circumstances make it impracticable, a law enforcement officer shall, prior to any arrest for an offense under this Code section, afford the person an opportunity to dispel any alarm or immediate concern which would otherwise be warranted by requesting the person to identify himself and explain his presence and conduct. No person shall be convicted of an offense under this Code section if the law enforcement officer failed to comply with the foregoing procedure or if it appears at trial that the explanation given by the person was true and would have dispelled the alarm or immediate concern.

    (c) A person committing the offense of loitering or prowling shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

    (d) This Code section shall not be deemed or construed to affect or limit the powers of counties or municipal corporations to adopt ordinances or resolutions prohibiting loitering or prowling within their respective limits.
    "

    You are required to have and present your driver's permit, when stopped while driving.
    You are not required to present your Georgia Weapons License, but you Are required by law to possess one.
    (A bit of an odd thing, the law states "immediate possession" in regards to the driver's license, but only "possession" in regards to the GWL.)
    If that has not been challenged, it should be. It appears to codify 'refusal to id' as RAS, as opposed to requiring RAS to compel id under Terry and Hiibel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    If that has not been challenged, it should be. It appears to codify 'refusal to id' as RAS, as opposed to requiring RAS to compel id under Terry and Hiibel.
    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    Your question is state specific. It depends on if your state has a stop and identify statue that gives the officers the ability. Most states do not have the requirement to identify without conditions being met, such as RAS of a crime. You will want to review your local laws or post in your states sub forum.

    Here is another general thread about identifying. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...d.php?97872-ID
    Actually, the question isn't about 'stop and ID,' it is about whether ID and permit can be demanded for carrying. Do you know of any state that compels presentation of an Identification card for "stop and ID?"


    The OP question is very state-specific, and is only relevant where the act of carrying a firearm is only a licensed activity.


    You all have been great... Great information.

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    slapmonkay, The link does not work.. anything else you can talk about or provide a link to would be great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    If that has not been challenged, it should be. It appears to codify 'refusal to id' as RAS, as opposed to requiring RAS to compel id under Terry and Hiibel.
    wrightme, thanks for the responses... This is great information......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Specifically for Georgia
    Short answer, "No"
    Long answer, Georgia has no "Stop and Identify" law, the closest we have is § 16-11-36 - Loitering or prowling

    Perhaps the best place to find all relevant laws pertaining to firearms in Georgia is Georgia Packing's summary.

    You are required to have and present your driver's permit, when stopped while driving.
    You are not required to present your Georgia Weapons License (either driving, walking, biking, swimming, or any other time), but you Are required by law to possess one.
    (A bit of an odd thing, the law states "immediate possession" in regards to the driver's license, but only "possession" in regards to the GWL.)
    Thank you sir, Yall are great... The only reason I ask is because a sheriff stopped me a few weeks ago and asked for all this.. Of course I provided and went on my way.. Just want to know for next time... Do I need to present if I was or did nothing wrong.
    V/R
    Chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmr287 View Post
    Thank you sir, Yall are great... The only reason I ask is because a sheriff stopped me a few weeks ago and asked for all this.. Of course I provided and went on my way.. Just want to know for next time... Do I need to present if I was or did nothing wrong.
    V/R
    Chris
    Now, there are actually TWO separate items to think about.

    1) What does the law actually state.

    2) What each citizen is willing to do during an encounter with Law Enforcement.


    #1 above can be found by reading applicable statutes, and by reviewing any applicable case law, if known.

    #2 above should be determined for each individual, by each individual.

    In other words, the citizen in the encounter should decide their own course of action, based upon what they are willing to either do, or not do, and upon how far they are willing to go to stand up for their own rights. Depending upon the LE in the encounter, those choices may end up with a range of outcomes; from a brief consensual encounter, up to an arrest.
    Last edited by wrightme; 02-25-2012 at 03:10 PM.
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    What were the circumstances of the stop, if I may ask?

    The Sheriff (or more likely one of his Deputies) is free to ask any question he likes; he can ask where you live, what your name is, or even if you'd like to come back to his place to pose dressed in nothing but chocolate syrup for a few "private pictures that will Never get on Facebook"..... but if he lacks statutory authority then he cannot command obedience.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 02-25-2012 at 03:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    What were the circumstances of the stop, if I may ask?

    The Sheriff (or more likely one of his Deputies) is free to ask any question he likes; he can ask where you live, what your name is, or even if you'd like to come back to his place to pose dressed in nothing but chocolate syrup for a few "private pictures that will Never get on Facebook"..... but if he lacks statutory authority then he cannot command obedience.

    I was going for a walk... (I have RSD or CRPS, This is nerve damage) From my right hip down to my toes. I barely feel anything, But I am not able to run. This all stems from Kick a steel door open with one of my team leaders as we were getting shot at on the streets of Ar Ramadi Iraq. Needless to say I have the damage and so did my Team leader. There are times I have issues walking. After my hospital recovery, I started Physical Therapy... I was told by my therapist that I should go for walk to help stimulate some of the Nerves I have... So I go for walks at night when I get home from work. I started taking my dog with me. I live out in the country and there are coyotes everywhere so I started open carrying to defend myself. I cant run from them so if one got a hair up it a$$, I would put it down. So I went one night and a Harris county Sheriff decides to blue light me.... from his car, he says place your hands out to the side parellel with the ground, I complied. I asked him what was going on? he said I don't recognize you, why are you carrying? I tell him my issues and that I have been living here for 9 yrs. Now I carry openly in a serpa 2 holster and the pistol was a glock. He came over and said I'm going to disarm you. I still wasn't told what was happening. So he comes over and just as he does, Backup arrives... This lady gets out of the car and draaws her service pistol and keeps it at the low ready.... The lead officer comes over and puts his hand on the pistol grip and pulls but the pistol will not come out... he tries to remove it 2 more times. As to my amusement I asked him if it was ok that I push the detent in to let the pistol come out freely. He said that was ok and the covering officer i watching closer. As I took my left hand down across my body I pushed on the detent and told him to lift and there was also a round chambered. He took the pistol and pulled the slide to the rear and locked it, then pushed the mag release. My mag hit the ground ejecting 2 round out. He sat the and looked down and said "oops sorry" I was instantly pissed. After he had my weapon and searched me, he asked me If I had ID and I said yes he also said do you have a Carry license? I said yes! He said let me see. I gave them up and after 20 minutes they gave me my weapon and mag back and told me not to chamber a round until they leave, so I complied. They left and I went back to carrying like I do. I haven't had an issue since, but just in case for next time should there be a next time I want to know that's all. I'm not looking to cause trouble or make someone job hard I just want to know the law and be in the good to use my RIGHTS without hassle.

    Anyways sorry for the boring talk I hope this helps what it is that I am asking for.
    V/R
    Chris

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmr287 View Post
    .... So I went one night and a Harris county Sheriff decides to blue light me.... from his car, he says place your hands out to the side parallel with the ground, I complied. I asked him what was going on? he said I don't recognize you, why are you carrying?
    You were stopped...... and his stated reason for doing so was he "didn't recognize you"?
    If that's a reasonable suspicion of there being a crime, then we're All in trouble!
    "...I don't recognize you either, what's your point? You wanna go out and get a beer or something?
    Why am I carrying a pistol? For the same reason I'm wearing pants, I think it's terribly impolite go out in public undressed, don't you agree?"

    Learn the "Dealing with Officer Friendly" mantra...
    "Am I being detained?" (tons of discussion about why it needs to be asked, and what to do when answered, or more importantly when not answered or Officer Friendly attempts to side-step giving an answer.) Oh, and you'll probably earn the Deputies undying hatred, but heh, life's rough.


    He took the pistol and pulled the slide to the rear and locked it, then pushed the mag release. My mag hit the ground ejecting 2 round out. He sat the and looked down and said "oops sorry" I was instantly pissed
    I'd be pissed too, but not very surprised.


    After he had my weapon and searched me,he asked me If I had ID and I said yes he also said do you have a Carry license? I said yes! He said let me see. I gave them up and after 20 minutes they gave me my weapon and mag back and told me not to chamber a round until they leave, so I complied.
    "Officer Friendly, am I being detained or are you just asking me for a voluntary chat, all friendly like? If I'm being detained for suspicion of a crime, then I'm going to exercise my right to not incriminate myself until I have a lawyer present, but if you're just asking for a voluntary chat then I'll be happy to answer."
    ...
    "If I'm NOT being detained and we're just having a friendly little voluntary encounter then.... Sorry, I don't have voluntary 'chats' with people that have guns when I don't. So, I guess you can hand me back my loaded firearm and we'll have a charming little chat for as long as you like, or, you can hand me back my firearm and I'll go skipping down the road on my merry little fracking way. You might notice a certain similarity in the two choices."
    "Oh, and if you're asking for me to provide identification, that's cool, too.
    I just need to see Two Pieces of Photo Identification from you first. No problem with that, right? You don't, mmm.. have anything to hide...... do you?"

    They left and I went back to carrying like I do. I haven't had an issue since, but just in case for next time should there be a next time I want to know that's all. I'm not looking to cause trouble or make someone job hard I just want to know the law and be in the good to use my RIGHTS without hassle.
    Anyways sorry for the boring talk I hope this helps what it is that I am asking for.
    V/R
    Chris
    Ya done good! I'd continue to carry on just the way you did. You did absolutely nothing criminal and were wrongly stopped without any suspicion of criminal activity.
    If you have the deputy's name, I would go to his precinct and respectfully ask to speak with his supervisor. It may be surprising how many actually care about the performance of their officers when they interact with the public. I had a deputy draw down on me (I was in my hard and armed) and had a nice hour-and-a-half chat with his precinct Captain who was rather upset that one of his employees would conduct himself in such a manner.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 02-25-2012 at 09:41 PM.

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    Wow, thats insane. Thanks for all the help! Lets get to this, "Am I being detained?" (tons of discussion about why it needs to be asked, and what to do when answered, or more importantly when not answered or Officer Friendly attempts to side-step giving an answer.)

    If they say no to am I being detained, what are the courses of action we as the Law abiding citz can do legally? I LOVE my rights and will keep exercising them but do not want to over step my bounds.

    If they say YES.......Ask for a Lawyer? Then what?

    If detained, what is the duration you can be held if you have done nothing wrong?

    If your held and you have done nothing wrong, what would you or I do upon release? Next course of action?

    Any thoughts?

    The LEO that stopped me, now knows me and doesn't say anything when he sees me or he WILL start a Casual conversation with me now while I'm OCing... I have had a few run-in's with him, (NOTHING BAD) mostly talk about hunting and fishing

    V/R
    Chris
    Last edited by cmr287; 02-26-2012 at 08:05 AM.

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmr287 View Post
    Wow, thats insane. Thanks for all the help! Lets get to this, "Am I being detained?" (tons of discussion about why it needs to be asked, and what to do when answered, or more importantly when not answered or Officer Friendly attempts to side-step giving an answer.)

    Change that to "Why am I being detained?" Keep asking that until the officer either gives a valid reason or says you're not being detained. Or, if you are where you have a legal right to be, tell them that they are dismissed and may now leave (You're former military. I'm sure you, and the others on here, understand the implications of telling them they are "dismissed").

    If they say no to am I being detained, what are the courses of action we as the Law abiding citz can do legally? I LOVE my rights and will keep exercising them but do not want to over step my bounds.

    Once they say "No", tell them to have a nice day and start walking away. Do not answer any other questions. BTW, you are recording all this, right? If not, it will become a "he said/he said" situation that you won't win.


    If they say YES.......Ask for a Lawyer? Then what?

    As one of the lawyers on here said, "Shut your big mouth" and keep it shut. Nothing you say will help you at this point.

    If detained, what is the duration you can be held if you have done nothing wrong?

    There is a time limit and it is posted somewhere on this forum, but twenty minutes rings a bell with me.


    If your held and you have done nothing wrong, what would you or I do upon release? Next course of action

    Since you have the entire encounter recorded....you did record it, didn't you?...you present the recording to the best lawyer you can afford who is pro-Second Amendment and knowledgeable about rights.


    Any thoughts?

    The LEO that stopped me, now knows me and doesn't say anything when he sees me or he WILL start a Casual conversation with me now while I'm OCing... I have had a few run-in's with him, (NOTHING BAD) mostly talk about hunting and fishing
    h

    Personal opinion: After he violated my rights, disarmed me, and possibly damaged my magazine by dumping it on the ground, I would have absolutely nothing to say to him. Do I carry a grudge? You bet your sweet rear end I do!!


    V/R
    Chris
    On the recording business: I have a very small digital recorder that has over fifty hours of recording time and it cost less than fifty dollars. There are tiny audio and video recorders on the market that are very reasonably priced, not to mention that a lot of cell phones have the audio/video recording capability. The latter also have the capability of streaming the audio/video to another location. That way, the police cannot delete it.

    In closing, thank you for your service and I hope the damage you have incurred in that service lessens as time goes on.

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