Are you obligated to give a LEO ID/ Permit?

cmr287 · Feb 25, 2012

When out and OCing, and a LEO stops you, you are doing nothing wrong, are you obligated to give him ID and wpn permit? Is it not your right to OC if the state you reside in allows you to OC. I reside in GA. Although GA is not typically an OC state your are authorized to OC if you have a carry permit. Any help or link where I can find it in the law would be great. Thanks for the help in advance.
V/R
Chris

Herr Heckler Koch · Feb 25, 2012

Ask the moderator/administrators to move your question to your state's sub-forum as a complete correct answer depends on your state's laws.

In general you cannot be compelled to surrender your Fourth and Fifth Amendment Rights to privacy and security in your person, papers and effects or be compelled to incriminate yourself. Once cause to compel surrender of your Fourth Amendment Rights is established then you are protected from potential self-incrimination by your Fifth Amendment Right.

Carrying a gun may make you liable to greater restrictions in your state law. In Wisconsin, the privilege of carrying a concealed weapon is dependent on your voluntarily surrendering ones Fourth Amendment Right and identification papers and privilege permit "concealed carry license."

slapmonkay · Feb 25, 2012

Your question is state specific. It depends on if your state has a stop and identify statue that gives the officers the ability. Most states do not have the requirement to identify without conditions being met, such as RAS of a crime. You will want to review your local laws or post in your states sub forum.

Here is another general thread about identifying. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?97872-ID

Herr Heckler Koch · Feb 25, 2012

slapmonkay said:
Here is another general thread about identifying. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?97872-ID

Yes, but that thread has been corrupted and forked.

wrightme · Feb 25, 2012

slapmonkay said:
Your question is state specific. It depends on if your state has a stop and identify statue that gives the officers the ability. Most states do not have the requirement to identify without conditions being met, such as RAS of a crime. You will want to review your local laws or post in your states sub forum.

Here is another general thread about identifying. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?97872-ID

Actually, the question isn't about 'stop and ID,' it is about whether ID and permit can be demanded for carrying. Do you know of any state that compels presentation of an Identification card for "stop and ID?"

The OP question is very state-specific, and is only relevant where the act of carrying a firearm is only a licensed activity.

slapmonkay · Feb 25, 2012

wrightme said:
Actually, the question isn't about 'stop and ID,' it is about whether ID and permit can be demanded for carrying. Do you know of any state that compels presentation of an Identification card for "stop and ID?"

The OP question is very state-specific, and is only relevant where the act of carrying a firearm is only a licensed activity.

Having a stop and identify statue could enable an officer to stop you for any reason he sees fit or no reason at all. I never stated that an individual had to provide an I'D card. However, with that said I don't know every states law, one could include the requirement of providing your I'D if you have it on your person (i don't know). Ruling this out without knowing for sure could be a mistake. Court case Hiibel did not rule on if providing ID card where specified or required by law was a violation of 4th, leaving this open.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify

wrightme · Feb 25, 2012

slapmonkay said:
Having a stop and identify statue could enable an officer to stop you for any reason he sees fit or no reason at all.

No, that is not accurate. "Stop and ID" statutes are only applicable under RAS, not for 'any reason sees fit,' and especially 'no reason at all.'

slapmonkay said:
I never stated that an individual had to provide an I'D card.

That is my point. The OP asked that question, and your response had nothing to do with the question asked.

slapmonkay said:
However, with that said I don't know every states law, one could include the requirement of providing your I'D if you have it on your person (i don't know). Ruling this out without knowing for sure could be a mistake. Court case Hiibel left the requirement of providing ID card open, if the law stated it.

Yes, it did. And unless a Stop and ID statute specifies presenting an actual physical ID card, it is irrelevant to the question asked by the OP.

cmr287 said:
When out and OCing, and a LEO stops you, you are doing nothing wrong, are you obligated to give him ID and wpn permit?

That question isn't a 'stop and ID' question. It is a 'do I have to hand over a permission slip and ID' question.

slapmonkay · Feb 25, 2012

The OP said ID, but when people say ID they may also be including simply identifying themselves. I don't want to assume that he was specifically saying only ID card. If we were to say no, and he goes out and decides that he does not need to provide name, etc per a state stop and id statue I don't want to be the cause of that.

wrightme said:
No, that is not accurate. "Stop and ID" statutes are only applicable under RAS, not for 'any reason sees fit,' and especially 'no reason at all.'

That is my point. The OP asked that question, and your response had nothing to do with the question asked.
Yes, it did. And unless a Stop and ID statute specifies presenting an actual physical ID card, it is irrelevant to the question asked by the OP.

Some states not not require full RAS for there stop and identify statue, for instance just time and place might suffice.

As for a state that requires you provide ID card, while it is with ras Colorado seems to. Simply implying it does not exist in all 50 states like you are is jumping to conclusion if you don't know all state laws.

16-3-103. Stopping of suspect. (1) A peace officer may stop any person who he reasonably suspects is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a crime and may require him to give his name and address, identification if available, and an explanation of his actions. A PEACE OFFICER SHALL NOT REQUIRE ANY PERSON WHO IS STOPPED PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION TO PRODUCE OR DIVULGE SUCH PERSON'S SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER. The stopping shall not constitute an arrest.

wrightme · Feb 25, 2012

slapmonkay said:
The OP said ID, but when people say ID they may also be including simply identifying themselves. I don't want to assume that he was specifically saying only ID card. If we were to say no, and he goes out and decides that he does not need to provide name, etc per a state stop and id statue I don't want to be the cause of that.

Yet the OP was clear.

slapmonkay said:
Some states not not require full RAS for there stop and identify statue, for instance just time and place might suffice.

That is likely to be counter to SCOTUS decision under Terry v Ohio, and Hiibel then.

slapmonkay said:
As for a state that requires you provide ID card, while it is with ras Colorado seems to. Simply implying it does not exist in all 50 states like you are is jumping to conclusion if you don't know all state laws.

I did not imply such. I DO know that "stop and ID" statutes are not in all states. I also am aware that very few IF ANY require a physical ID. CA used to, but Kolendor struck it down.
If you feel some state does allow stop and ID without RAS, cite to authority.

slapmonkay · Feb 25, 2012

wrightme said:
No, that is not accurate. "Stop and ID" statutes are only applicable under RAS, not for 'any reason sees fit,' and especially 'no reason at all.'

That is not accurate. While it may be accurate in most states, I wouldn't say in all.

Arkansas:

5-71-213(a)(1) Lingers, remains, or prowls in a public place or the premises of another without apparent reason and under circumstances that warrant alarm or concern for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity and, `upon inquiry by a law enforcement officer, refuses to identify himself or herself and give a reasonably credible account of his or her presence and purpose;

I would say simply being in a location and warranting alarm is hard to show RAS. In this case, you are written a ticket for loitering if you don't ID.

wrightme · Feb 25, 2012

slapmonkay said:
That is not accurate. While it may be accurate in most states, I wouldn't say in all.

That specific you cite is against Terry v Ohio and Hiibel.

slapmonkay said:
I would say simply being in a location and warranting alarm is not RAS. In this case, you are written a ticket for loitering if you don't ID.

I would say that such statute is unconstitutional.

Unless the following proviso is considered as 'RAS' and not as mere 'time and location.'
"under circumstances that warrant alarm or concern for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity"

Without RAS, a stop is by SCOTUS definition, consensual.

slapmonkay · Feb 25, 2012

wrightme said:
That specific you cite is against Terry v Ohio and Hiibel.

I woudl say that such statute is unconstitutional.

Unless the following proviso is considered as 'RAS' and not as mere 'time and location.'
"under circumstances that warrant alarm or concern for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity"

I am not arguing that point. The point I am making, is the statues may exist in some states. I don't know if they have been challenged or anything. But if they are still on the books, and you fail to ID you may be looking for a ride. You may beat the wrap but you won't beat the ride.

Best advice I can give to the OP, is know/learn your state law and any court rulings related. The folks in your states sub-forum are typically the best place for information or if your really concerned consult a lawyer.

IANAL

Fallschirjmäger · Feb 25, 2012

cmr287 said:
When out and OCing, and a LEO stops you, you are doing nothing wrong, are you obligated to give him ID and wpn permit? Is it not your right to OC if the state you reside in allows you to OC. I reside in GA. Although GA is not typically an OC state your are authorized to OC if you have a carry permit. Any help or link where I can find it in the law would be great. Thanks for the help in advance.
V/R
Chris

Specifically for Georgia
Short answer, "No"
Long answer, Georgia has no "Stop and Identify" law, the closest we have is § 16-11-36 - Loitering or prowling

Perhaps the best place to find all relevant laws pertaining to firearms in Georgia is Georgia Packing's summary.

You are required to have and present your driver's permit, when stopped while driving.
You are not required to present your Georgia Weapons License (either driving, walking, biking, swimming, or any other time), but you Are required by law to possess one.
(A bit of an odd thing, the law states "immediate possession" in regards to the driver's license, but only "possession" in regards to the GWL.)

person DJ · Feb 25, 2012

IN Tennessee we have a HCP or handgun carry permit. We can carry open or concelled, however if ask but LEO to show permit you must comply buy state law.

wrightme · Feb 25, 2012

Fallschirmjäger said:
Specifically for Georgia
Short answer, "No"
Long answer, Georgia has no "Stop and Identify" law, the closest we have is § 16-11-36 - Loitering or prowling
"(a) A person commits the offense of loitering or prowling when he is in a place at a time or in a manner not usual for law-abiding individuals under circumstances that warrant a justifiable and reasonable alarm or immediate concern for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity.

(b) Among the circumstances which may be considered in determining whether alarm is warranted is the fact that the person takes flight upon the appearance of a law enforcement officer, refuses to identify himself, or manifestly endeavors to conceal himself or any object. Unless flight by the person or other circumstances make it impracticable, a law enforcement officer shall, prior to any arrest for an offense under this Code section, afford the person an opportunity to dispel any alarm or immediate concern which would otherwise be warranted by requesting the person to identify himself and explain his presence and conduct. No person shall be convicted of an offense under this Code section if the law enforcement officer failed to comply with the foregoing procedure or if it appears at trial that the explanation given by the person was true and would have dispelled the alarm or immediate concern.

(c) A person committing the offense of loitering or prowling shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

(d) This Code section shall not be deemed or construed to affect or limit the powers of counties or municipal corporations to adopt ordinances or resolutions prohibiting loitering or prowling within their respective limits. "

You are required to have and present your driver's permit, when stopped while driving.
You are not required to present your Georgia Weapons License, but you Are required by law to possess one.
(A bit of an odd thing, the law states "immediate possession" in regards to the driver's license, but only "possession" in regards to the GWL.)

If that has not been challenged, it should be. It appears to codify 'refusal to id' as RAS, as opposed to requiring RAS to compel id under Terry and Hiibel.

cmr287 · Feb 25, 2012

wrightme said:
If that has not been challenged, it should be. It appears to codify 'refusal to id' as RAS, as opposed to requiring RAS to compel id under Terry and Hiibel.

Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
Your question is state specific. It depends on if your state has a stop and identify statue that gives the officers the ability. Most states do not have the requirement to identify without conditions being met, such as RAS of a crime. You will want to review your local laws or post in your states sub forum.

Here is another general thread about identifying. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...d.php?97872-ID
Actually, the question isn't about 'stop and ID,' it is about whether ID and permit can be demanded for carrying. Do you know of any state that compels presentation of an Identification card for "stop and ID?"

The OP question is very state-specific, and is only relevant where the act of carrying a firearm is only a licensed activity.

You all have been great... Great information.

cmr287 · Feb 25, 2012

slapmonkay, The link does not work.. anything else you can talk about or provide a link to would be great.

cmr287 · Feb 25, 2012

wrightme said:
If that has not been challenged, it should be. It appears to codify 'refusal to id' as RAS, as opposed to requiring RAS to compel id under Terry and Hiibel.

wrightme, thanks for the responses... This is great information......

cmr287 · Feb 25, 2012

Fallschirmjäger said:
Specifically for Georgia
Short answer, "No"
Long answer, Georgia has no "Stop and Identify" law, the closest we have is § 16-11-36 - Loitering or prowling

Perhaps the best place to find all relevant laws pertaining to firearms in Georgia is Georgia Packing's summary.

You are required to have and present your driver's permit, when stopped while driving.
You are not required to present your Georgia Weapons License (either driving, walking, biking, swimming, or any other time), but you Are required by law to possess one.
(A bit of an odd thing, the law states "immediate possession" in regards to the driver's license, but only "possession" in regards to the GWL.)

Thank you sir, Yall are great... The only reason I ask is because a sheriff stopped me a few weeks ago and asked for all this.. Of course I provided and went on my way.. Just want to know for next time... Do I need to present if I was or did nothing wrong.
V/R
Chris

wrightme · Feb 25, 2012

cmr287 said:
Thank you sir, Yall are great... The only reason I ask is because a sheriff stopped me a few weeks ago and asked for all this.. Of course I provided and went on my way.. Just want to know for next time... Do I need to present if I was or did nothing wrong.
V/R
Chris

Now, there are actually TWO separate items to think about.

1) What does the law actually state.

2) What each citizen is willing to do during an encounter with Law Enforcement.

#1 above can be found by reading applicable statutes, and by reviewing any applicable case law, if known.

#2 above should be determined for each individual, by each individual.

In other words, the citizen in the encounter should decide their own course of action, based upon what they are willing to either do, or not do, and upon how far they are willing to go to stand up for their own rights. Depending upon the LE in the encounter, those choices may end up with a range of outcomes; from a brief consensual encounter, up to an arrest.

Are you obligated to give a LEO ID/ Permit?

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