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Are you obligated to give a LEO ID/ Permit?

Fallschirjmäger

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Cumming, Georgia, USA
What were the circumstances of the stop, if I may ask?

The Sheriff (or more likely one of his Deputies) is free to ask any question he likes; he can ask where you live, what your name is, or even if you'd like to come back to his place to pose dressed in nothing but chocolate syrup for a few "private pictures that will Never get on Facebook"..... but if he lacks statutory authority then he cannot command obedience.
 
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cmr287

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Dec 22, 2011
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Location
Harris County GA, ,
What were the circumstances of the stop, if I may ask?

The Sheriff (or more likely one of his Deputies) is free to ask any question he likes; he can ask where you live, what your name is, or even if you'd like to come back to his place to pose dressed in nothing but chocolate syrup for a few "private pictures that will Never get on Facebook"..... but if he lacks statutory authority then he cannot command obedience.


I was going for a walk... (I have RSD or CRPS, This is nerve damage) From my right hip down to my toes. I barely feel anything, But I am not able to run. This all stems from Kick a steel door open with one of my team leaders as we were getting shot at on the streets of Ar Ramadi Iraq. Needless to say I have the damage and so did my Team leader. There are times I have issues walking. After my hospital recovery, I started Physical Therapy... I was told by my therapist that I should go for walk to help stimulate some of the Nerves I have... So I go for walks at night when I get home from work. I started taking my dog with me. I live out in the country and there are coyotes everywhere so I started open carrying to defend myself. I cant run from them so if one got a hair up it a$$, I would put it down. So I went one night and a Harris county Sheriff decides to blue light me.... from his car, he says place your hands out to the side parellel with the ground, I complied. I asked him what was going on? he said I don't recognize you, why are you carrying? I tell him my issues and that I have been living here for 9 yrs. Now I carry openly in a serpa 2 holster and the pistol was a glock. He came over and said I'm going to disarm you. I still wasn't told what was happening. So he comes over and just as he does, Backup arrives... This lady gets out of the car and draaws her service pistol and keeps it at the low ready.... The lead officer comes over and puts his hand on the pistol grip and pulls but the pistol will not come out... he tries to remove it 2 more times. As to my amusement I asked him if it was ok that I push the detent in to let the pistol come out freely. He said that was ok and the covering officer i watching closer. As I took my left hand down across my body I pushed on the detent and told him to lift and there was also a round chambered. He took the pistol and pulled the slide to the rear and locked it, then pushed the mag release. My mag hit the ground ejecting 2 round out. He sat the and looked down and said "oops sorry" I was instantly pissed. After he had my weapon and searched me, he asked me If I had ID and I said yes he also said do you have a Carry license? I said yes! He said let me see. I gave them up and after 20 minutes they gave me my weapon and mag back and told me not to chamber a round until they leave, so I complied. They left and I went back to carrying like I do. I haven't had an issue since, but just in case for next time should there be a next time I want to know that's all. I'm not looking to cause trouble or make someone job hard I just want to know the law and be in the good to use my RIGHTS without hassle.

Anyways sorry for the boring talk I hope this helps what it is that I am asking for.
V/R
Chris
 

Fallschirjmäger

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.... So I went one night and a Harris county Sheriff decides to blue light me.... from his car, he says place your hands out to the side parallel with the ground, I complied. I asked him what was going on? he said I don't recognize you, why are you carrying?
You were stopped...... and his stated reason for doing so was he "didn't recognize you"?
If that's a reasonable suspicion of there being a crime, then we're All in trouble!
"...I don't recognize you either, what's your point? You wanna go out and get a beer or something?
Why am I carrying a pistol? For the same reason I'm wearing pants, I think it's terribly impolite go out in public undressed, don't you agree?"

Learn the "Dealing with Officer Friendly" mantra...
"Am I being detained?" (tons of discussion about why it needs to be asked, and what to do when answered, or more importantly when not answered or Officer Friendly attempts to side-step giving an answer.) Oh, and you'll probably earn the Deputies undying hatred, but heh, life's rough.


He took the pistol and pulled the slide to the rear and locked it, then pushed the mag release. My mag hit the ground ejecting 2 round out. He sat the and looked down and said "oops sorry" I was instantly pissed
I'd be pissed too, but not very surprised.


After he had my weapon and searched me,he asked me If I had ID and I said yes he also said do you have a Carry license? I said yes! He said let me see. I gave them up and after 20 minutes they gave me my weapon and mag back and told me not to chamber a round until they leave, so I complied.
"Officer Friendly, am I being detained or are you just asking me for a voluntary chat, all friendly like? If I'm being detained for suspicion of a crime, then I'm going to exercise my right to not incriminate myself until I have a lawyer present, but if you're just asking for a voluntary chat then I'll be happy to answer."
...
"If I'm NOT being detained and we're just having a friendly little voluntary encounter then.... Sorry, I don't have voluntary 'chats' with people that have guns when I don't. So, I guess you can hand me back my loaded firearm and we'll have a charming little chat for as long as you like, or, you can hand me back my firearm and I'll go skipping down the road on my merry little fracking way. You might notice a certain similarity in the two choices."
"Oh, and if you're asking for me to provide identification, that's cool, too.
I just need to see Two Pieces of Photo Identification from you first. No problem with that, right? You don't, mmm.. have anything to hide...... do you?"

They left and I went back to carrying like I do. I haven't had an issue since, but just in case for next time should there be a next time I want to know that's all. I'm not looking to cause trouble or make someone job hard I just want to know the law and be in the good to use my RIGHTS without hassle.
Anyways sorry for the boring talk I hope this helps what it is that I am asking for.
V/R
Chris

Ya done good! I'd continue to carry on just the way you did. You did absolutely nothing criminal and were wrongly stopped without any suspicion of criminal activity.
If you have the deputy's name, I would go to his precinct and respectfully ask to speak with his supervisor. It may be surprising how many actually care about the performance of their officers when they interact with the public. I had a deputy draw down on me (I was in my hard and armed) and had a nice hour-and-a-half chat with his precinct Captain who was rather upset that one of his employees would conduct himself in such a manner.
 
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cmr287

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Messages
56
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Harris County GA, ,
Wow, thats insane. Thanks for all the help! Lets get to this, "Am I being detained?" (tons of discussion about why it needs to be asked, and what to do when answered, or more importantly when not answered or Officer Friendly attempts to side-step giving an answer.)

If they say no to am I being detained, what are the courses of action we as the Law abiding citz can do legally? I LOVE my rights and will keep exercising them but do not want to over step my bounds.

If they say YES.......Ask for a Lawyer? Then what?

If detained, what is the duration you can be held if you have done nothing wrong?

If your held and you have done nothing wrong, what would you or I do upon release? Next course of action?

Any thoughts?

The LEO that stopped me, now knows me and doesn't say anything when he sees me or he WILL start a Casual conversation with me now while I'm OCing... I have had a few run-in's with him, (NOTHING BAD) mostly talk about hunting and fishing

V/R
Chris
 
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SFCRetired

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Oct 29, 2008
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Montgomery, Alabama, USA
Wow, thats insane. Thanks for all the help! Lets get to this, "Am I being detained?" (tons of discussion about why it needs to be asked, and what to do when answered, or more importantly when not answered or Officer Friendly attempts to side-step giving an answer.)

Change that to "Why am I being detained?" Keep asking that until the officer either gives a valid reason or says you're not being detained. Or, if you are where you have a legal right to be, tell them that they are dismissed and may now leave (You're former military. I'm sure you, and the others on here, understand the implications of telling them they are "dismissed").

If they say no to am I being detained, what are the courses of action we as the Law abiding citz can do legally? I LOVE my rights and will keep exercising them but do not want to over step my bounds.

Once they say "No", tell them to have a nice day and start walking away. Do not answer any other questions. BTW, you are recording all this, right? If not, it will become a "he said/he said" situation that you won't win.


If they say YES.......Ask for a Lawyer? Then what?

As one of the lawyers on here said, "Shut your big mouth" and keep it shut. Nothing you say will help you at this point.

If detained, what is the duration you can be held if you have done nothing wrong?

There is a time limit and it is posted somewhere on this forum, but twenty minutes rings a bell with me.


If your held and you have done nothing wrong, what would you or I do upon release? Next course of action

Since you have the entire encounter recorded....you did record it, didn't you?...you present the recording to the best lawyer you can afford who is pro-Second Amendment and knowledgeable about rights.


Any thoughts?

The LEO that stopped me, now knows me and doesn't say anything when he sees me or he WILL start a Casual conversation with me now while I'm OCing... I have had a few run-in's with him, (NOTHING BAD) mostly talk about hunting and fishing
h

Personal opinion: After he violated my rights, disarmed me, and possibly damaged my magazine by dumping it on the ground, I would have absolutely nothing to say to him. Do I carry a grudge? You bet your sweet rear end I do!!


V/R
Chris

On the recording business: I have a very small digital recorder that has over fifty hours of recording time and it cost less than fifty dollars. There are tiny audio and video recorders on the market that are very reasonably priced, not to mention that a lot of cell phones have the audio/video recording capability. The latter also have the capability of streaming the audio/video to another location. That way, the police cannot delete it.

In closing, thank you for your service and I hope the damage you have incurred in that service lessens as time goes on.
 

wrightme

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Fallon, Nevada, USA
Wow, thats insane. Thanks for all the help! Lets get to this, "Am I being detained?" (tons of discussion about why it needs to be asked, and what to do when answered, or more importantly when not answered or Officer Friendly attempts to side-step giving an answer.)

If they say no to am I being detained, what are the courses of action we as the Law abiding citz can do legally? I LOVE my rights and will keep exercising them but do not want to over step my bounds.
As mentioned, simply walk away. But, one problem with that, you may already be where you were going.....
This has never happened to me, but if you are already where you want to be, the officer should break contact. If he does not, maybe it would be possible to keep a recorder going, get his name, badge number and department, and CALL that department to report that an officer is not detaining you, but IS harassing you.

IOW, if I am somewhere I desired to be, such as in line to order some food, why should I need to depart? The officer is the one who is out of place.
cmr287 said:
If they say YES.......Ask for a Lawyer? Then what?
Silence from you. If the locale you are in has an actual requirement for you to give your identity, follow that statute. For instance, in Nevada, I would be required to state my true name. Upon doing that, absent any need to id for a state licensed activity such as CC, I am conforming to statute by otherwise remaining silent.
cmr287 said:
If detained, what is the duration you can be held if you have done nothing wrong?
Statute should define it; Nevada is 60 minutes.
 
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wrightme

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Now, as for Georgia, the alleged "Stop and ID" statute is cited as 16-11-36b:

(a) A person commits the offense of loitering or prowling when he is in a place at a time or in a manner not usual for law-abiding individuals under circumstances that warrant a justifiable and reasonable alarm or immediate concern for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity.

(b) Among the circumstances which may be considered in determining whether alarm is warranted is the fact that the person takes flight upon the appearance of a law enforcement officer, refuses to identify himself, or manifestly endeavors to conceal himself or any object. Unless flight by the person or other circumstances make it impracticable, a law enforcement officer shall, prior to any arrest for an offense under this Code section, afford the person an opportunity to dispel any alarm or immediate concern which would otherwise be warranted by requesting the person to identify himself and explain his presence and conduct. No person shall be convicted of an offense under this Code section if the law enforcement officer failed to comply with the foregoing procedure or if it appears at trial that the explanation given by the person was true and would have dispelled the alarm or immediate concern.

(c) A person committing the offense of loitering or prowling shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

(d) This Code section shall not be deemed or construed to affect or limit the powers of counties or municipal corporations to adopt ordinances or resolutions prohibiting loitering or prowling within their respective limits.
Yet 'a' limits it as follows: "the offense of loitering or prowling when he is in a place at a time or in a manner not usual for law-abiding individuals under circumstances that warrant a justifiable and reasonable alarm or immediate concern for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity"

I would suggest that the argument is that if you are going about the activities as usual for law-abiding individuals, being visibly armed does NOT cause 'in a manner' nor 'under circumstances' that 'warrant a justifiable and reasonable alarm or immediate concern for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity.'

If the 'loitering or prowling' doesn't fit, it appears that 'identify yourself' would not fit either; sans licensed activity requiring the presentation of an identification.
 
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cmr287

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Harris County GA, ,
Im looking into one of these lil recorder devices right now... Like I said I havent had anymore run-ins as of late., but you never know? Thanks for the help everyone!
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Im looking into one of these lil recorder devices right now... Like I said I havent had anymore run-ins as of late., but you never know? Thanks for the help everyone!

How often do you carry a firearm? How many times have you needed it to defend yourself against a criminal?
How often do you carry a recorder? How many times have you needed it to defend yourself against an overzealous officer?

It only takes once, to have a life changing event.
 
H

Herr Heckler Koch

Guest
... How often do you carry a recorder? How many times have you needed it to defend yourself against an overzealous officer?
do you imagine that he begs special consideration with a band-of-blue on his vehicle.

Apropos, in my Henning Mankell recreational reading this morning I've come across the term broderbund.
 

Tolderian

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, Georgia, USA
Call me stupid... but I want one of these as a person who Open Carries.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Police-Wearable-Head-Cam-MIC-RCA-LYRA-4GB-CF-DVR-COMBO-/230463493789

I'm just going to remove "Police" from the side... maybe for fun, I'll put "Citizen". But I'll be able to start recording without tying up my hands to hold a device. Furthermore, won't freak out the cop AS bad when I reach for something in my pocket when he's approaching me.

Best bet... figure out a way to stream it to a DVR at home so they can't delete the data should they try and take it.

BAM!
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Cumming, Georgia, USA
do you imagine that he begs special consideration with a band-of-blue on his vehicle.
My brother asked me if I wanted a spare one of his, "Oh Hail No, I don't want my car keyed in some random parking lot or someone who's had a run-in with the cops and is now working at the QwikLube loosening any bolts beneath my car when it's in for servicing."

I noticed that neither his nor his wife's car bears a 'thin blue line' sticker anymore.
 
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cmr287

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Harris County GA, ,
how often do you carry a firearm? every time i leave my house. how many times have you needed it to defend yourself against a criminal? it is just for that instance you can not predict.

how often do you carry a recorder? i haven't, i'm looking into getting one now though. how many times have you needed it to defend yourself against an overzealous officer? i could have used it at the time of the two that stopped me and said they didn't recognize me.

it only takes once, to have a life changing event.
true.


do you imagine that he begs special consideration with a band-of-blue on his vehicle.

Apropos, in my henning mankell recreational reading this morning i've come across the term broderbund.

call me stupid... But i want one of these as a person who open carries.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/police-wearable-head-cam-mic-rca-lyra-4gb-cf-dvr-combo-/230463493789 wow this is crazy... Im looking for something for my pocket, lmao

i'm just going to remove "police" from the side... Maybe for fun, i'll put "citizen". But i'll be able to start recording without tying up my hands to hold a device. Furthermore, won't freak out the cop as bad when i reach for something in my pocket when he's approaching me.

Best bet... Figure out a way to stream it to a dvr at home so they can't delete the data should they try and take it. yep know that would happen...


bam!
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Cumming, Georgia, USA
There are smart-phone apps that will broadcast directly to the web, if I'm not mistaken. I'm hoping that soon there will be phones with sufficient battery life to make it worthwhile to have the recorder running for 8-12hours and batteries that aren't engineered to go flat in 18-months (Apple, I'm looking at your shenanigans.)

I'd probably pay double for a voice recorder that could broadcast 1/2 mile to the trunk of my car.

>>cmr287, I'm thinking of a level-IIIA vest with 'CITIZEN' emblazoned on it, similar to the character of Castle.
Rick_Castle_in_WRITER_vest.jpg
 
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smn

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To the OP, if the event did happen in Georgia then immediately file an ORA (similar to an FOIA) for the dispatch records, recordings (video and audio), and any paper reports on the incident, and reports from the responding officers for that shift. They have three days to respond with the results or a timeline to provide you with the results.

Talk to a lawyer if you feel the need to help.

Once you get to the results immediately write a letter to their boss (and the Sheriff) and explain you did not like the way you were treated. Describe your experience and include case law on Terry, Hiibel, Brown v. Texas, State v Jones (Ga 2008), and McDonald v Chicago. Philadelphia is being sued by Mark Fiorino for a 1A and 4A violation of his person by the PPD.

I can't say or sure if you've got a case, but you've definitely got grounds for a complaint. In my limited experiences with the local PD they've been decent and the second was much better than the first since I asserted my rights. Followup with their boss is important. It provides feedback their employers don't see on the reports.

Please, follow up.
 

aadvark

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cmr287:

Yes..., You ARE Required under Current Georgia Law to Provide a Law Enforcement Officer with a Valid and Lawfully Issued Georgia Weapons Carry License, or a License of another State in which Georgia Shares in Reciprocity, in Order to Legally Carry or Possess a Weapon in Public or any Public Place beyond The Limits of Your Own: Home, Land, Property, Premises, Motor Vehicle, or Place of Business/Employment, unless; You are a Person Enumerated as Exempt under any of The Following: 1. Georgia Code 16-11-130, OR 2. Pursuant to a Specific Subsection (a) through (g) of Georgia Code 16-11-126, OR 3. Paragraph (3) of Subsection (d) of Georgia Code 16-11-127.

The Specific Code Section herein Referenced is Located under The Third Sentence of Subsection (e) of Georgia Code 16-11-129.

Georgia Law Stipulates that if You are Challenged by a Law Enforcement Officer for Carrying a Weapon in Public, and are either: 1. Unable to Produce a License, OR 2. Unable to Prove an Exception from Licensure, then, that Act can be Construed as a Violation of Georgia Code 16-11-126. In Fact, Georgia Law CREATES a Prima-Facie Evidence Assumption in such Cases which Usually Holds Sway before a Judicial Figure as Proponderence of The Evidence. Georgia Law further Provides that any Weapon Possessed in Violation of Georgia Code 16-11-126 is to be Confiscated Pursuant to Georgia Code 17-5-51 and 17-5-52, although This may soon Change.

aadvark

*** However, there is a Legislative Bill Currently Passed by The Senate, and Pending in The House, that would Remove The Aforementioned Requirement to Provide a Law Enforcement Officer with such Documentation. The Bill Removes This Requirement under Line 553 through 556 of that Legislative Document, as is Viewable here: http://www.legis.ga.gov/legislation/en-US/display/32793 ***
 
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Kingfish

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cmr287:

Yes..., You ARE Required under Current Georgia Law to Provide a Law Enforcement Officer with a Valid and Lawfully Issued Georgia Weapons Carry License, or a License of another State in which Georgia Shares in Reciprocity, in Order to Legally Carry or Possess a Weapon in Public or any Public Place beyond The Limits of Your Own: Home, Land, Property, Premises, Motor Vehicle, or Place of Business/Employment, unless; You are a Person Enumerated as Exempt under any of The Following: 1. Georgia Code 16-11-130, OR 2. Pursuant to a Specific Subsection (a) through (g) of Georgia Code 16-11-126, OR 3. Paragraph (3) of Subsection (d) of Georgia Code 16-11-127.

The Specific Code Section herein Referenced is Located under The Third Sentence of Subsection (e) of Georgia Code 16-11-129.

Georgia Law Stipulates that if You are Challenged by a Law Enforcement Officer for Carrying a Weapon in Public, and are either: 1. Unable to Produce a License, OR 2. Unable to Prove an Exception from Licensure, then, that Act can be Construed as a Violation of Georgia Code 16-11-126. In Fact, Georgia Law CREATES a Prima-Facie Evidence Assumption in such Cases which Usually Holds Sway before a Judicial Figure as Proponderence of The Evidence. Georgia Law further Provides that any Weapon Possessed in Violation of Georgia Code 16-11-126 is to be Confiscated Pursuant to Georgia Code 17-5-51 and 17-5-52, although This may soon Change.

aadvark

*** However, there is a Legislative Bill Currently Passed by The Senate, and Pending in The House, that would Remove The Aforementioned Requirement to Provide a Law Enforcement Officer with such Documentation. The Bill Removes This Requirement under Line 553 through 556 of that Legislative Document, as is Viewable here: http://www.legis.ga.gov/legislation/en-US/display/32793 ***
Aadvark, can you site the exact statue and wording that requires a GWCL holder to produce the license on demand please? I don't see it in the law.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Cumming, Georgia, USA
The entirety of the third sentence, sub-section (e) OCGA 16-11-129 is reproduced below:
"...It shall be required that any license holder under this Code section have in his or her possession his or her valid license whenever he or she is carrying a weapon under the authority granted by this Code section, and his or her failure to do so shall be prima-facie evidence of a violation of Code Section 16-11-126..."
I'm failing to see the words, "demand", "request", "ask for", "provide","produce", "display", "surrender", "show", "give", "hand over", or even "lend". Either I'm missing the part where it can be demanded or someone's reading something into the statute words that aren't there.

"Prima facie" means that the officer can cite/arrest for non-possession IF during the course of his investigation of a suspected crime that a license cannot be produced. He is not required to exhaust all possibilities that one may exist. There is no statutory requirement that it be produced short of a criminal investigation.
 
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