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Police officer looking for respectful dialoge

sawah

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2011
Messages
436
Location
Virginia
ISTM that if you're OC-ing or have a permit, then asking for ID in the presence of law-abiding behavior is just an attempt to intimidate, be pushy. There's no value in 'knowing who a law-abiding citizen is' for the LEOs.
 
H

Herr Heckler Koch

Guest
Hi ya Ma'. Welcome to OCDO.

Here are all of the current Wisconsin statutes. https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/prefaces/toc At the top left of the page is a search box that works reasonably well.

Wisconsin's effective ID statute is § 968.24 https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/968/24

Wisconsin's problematic CWL ID requirement §175.60(2g)(c) is https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/175/60
(problematic because a cop never has lawful authority to make only a "request" if the request can be denied).
 

stargateranch

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
100
Location
West Jordan
Mommaof3, thanks for your responses. I will admit to watching stargate however I actually grew up farming and that was the name of the family farm so I stole the name from my folks.

Welcome, from a soon to be dad of three.
 
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Trap

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2012
Messages
23
Location
Salem, Or
Dispatch

I was just wondering what role dispatch plays in this? I mean if they can talk you through CPR or delivering a baby I would think that a MWAG call could be diffused at the 911 call.

Example:

Dispatch: 911 what is your emergency

Caller: There is a man with a gun at the quicky mart! He has a gun right there on his hip everyone can see it!

Dispatch: What is he doing?

Caller: He just paid for his gas and a soda and is walking to his car... OMG hurry he has kids in the car!!

Dispatch: Has he threatened anyone?

Caller: No but he HAS A GUN!!

Dispatch: Owning a gun is legal if he is not threatening anyone or recklessly endangering another person by pointing or discharging the weapon he is not breaking the law. Is he doing any of those things?

Caller:Really? Well no, but I saw on COPS that guns were illegal, They arrest EVERYONE with a gun.

Dispatch: TV is not real life. Please take a prozac and read a book. -Click- Call terminated.


I can't see this ever REALLY happening, but it should. There is a thing called common sense, it's just not so common anymore.
 

stargateranch

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
100
Location
West Jordan
I was just wondering what role dispatch plays in this? I mean if they can talk you through CPR or delivering a baby I would think that a MWAG call could be diffused at the 911 call.

Example:

Dispatch: 911 what is your emergency

Caller: There is a man with a gun at the quicky mart! He has a gun right there on his hip everyone can see it!

Dispatch: What is he doing?

Caller: He just paid for his gas and a soda and is walking to his car... OMG hurry he has kids in the car!!

Dispatch: Has he threatened anyone?

Caller: No but he HAS A GUN!!

Dispatch: Owning a gun is legal if he is not threatening anyone or recklessly endangering another person by pointing or discharging the weapon he is not breaking the law. Is he doing any of those things?

Caller:Really? Well no, but I saw on COPS that guns were illegal, They arrest EVERYONE with a gun.

Dispatch: TV is not real life. Please take a prozac and read a book. -Click- Call terminated.


I can't see this ever REALLY happening, but it should. There is a thing called common sense, it's just not so common anymore.

I do not want to second guess dispatch, these cell phones have made their life tough, lots of dumb calls. They do pretty well at weeding them out, my dispatch anyway.

On the other side you would get an awful lot of complaints if every crazy was ignored, that eats a lot of resources, handling complaints.
 

JoeSparky

Centurion
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,621
Location
Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
I was just wondering what role dispatch plays in this? I mean if they can talk you through CPR or delivering a baby I would think that a MWAG call could be diffused at the 911 call.

Example:

Dispatch: 911 what is your emergency

Caller: There is a man with a gun at the quicky mart! He has a gun right there on his hip everyone can see it!

Dispatch: What is he doing?

Caller: He just paid for his gas and a soda and is walking to his car... OMG hurry he has kids in the car!!

Dispatch: Has he threatened anyone?

Caller: No but he HAS A GUN!!

Dispatch: Owning a gun is legal if he is not threatening anyone or recklessly endangering another person by pointing or discharging the weapon he is not breaking the law. Is he doing any of those things?

Caller:Really? Well no, but I saw on COPS that guns were illegal, They arrest EVERYONE with a gun.

Dispatch: TV is not real life. Please take a prozac and read a book. -Click- Call terminated.


I can't see this ever REALLY happening, but it should. There is a thing called common sense, it's just not so common anymore.

Sorry, but for "dispatch" to advise one to take a prescription medication is a crime... you aren't really suggesting that the police dispatcher do this for real were you?
 

sawah

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2011
Messages
436
Location
Virginia
Sorry, but for "dispatch" to advise one to take a prescription medication is a crime... you aren't really suggesting that the police dispatcher do this for real were you?

He was just using hyperbole. Everyone knows that of the SSRIs Prozac takes 7-10 days to start inhibiting reuptake of serotonin to the level that it changes behavior. ;-)
 

Trap

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2012
Messages
23
Location
Salem, Or
I am sure that 911 operators get a high percentage of calls that lead to no crimes. I would assume that they would try to make a determination if a crime has been, or is about to be commited. I believe when someone calls to report a legal activity, it takes police away from other issues that could be potentially be life threatening. Someone walking a dog down the street with a firearm on his hip concerns me far less than the report of a possible DUI. My prazac comment was simply to say that paople need to calm down, stop and think about a situation as a whole. Just because you would not do, or approve of a certain thing ( OC ) does not make it illegal. Unfortunately I have seen alot of evidence of police reacting in the same way. They "think" it is illegal therefore it must be.
 

Trap

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2012
Messages
23
Location
Salem, Or
@joeSparky


Could you please direct me to the statute that makes that a crime? :) Or is it illegal because you think it is.



Question EVERYTHING!!
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
@joeSparky


Could you please direct me to the statute that makes that a crime? :) Or is it illegal because you think it is.



Question EVERYTHING!!

It could be interpreted as practicing medicine w/o a license.

Nevertheless, please let's not pursue that on this thread - considerably OT.
 

hermannr

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
2,327
Location
Okanogan Highland
Hello,

I am a officer here in Utah, I support the right to keep and bear arms. I am attempting to educate myself and those I work with and also make contacting those who open carry a good experience for all involved. That said I will make a few statements so you understand where I am coming from and then ask several questions and would appreciate your insight.

Statements, These are my personal beliefs

1. When you open carry the police may be called. I work for the citizens of Utah both those who open carry and those who make the call reporting the activity. I have a duty to investigate even if that means driving by, smiling and waving, and then moving on. Please do not fault me for responding to a request from another citizen.

2. Guns make me nervous, some cops with guns make me nervous. I do not know you weapon handling skills, I do not know your intentions. Nothing personal you just get paranoid doing this job for too long. Why? because I have arrested individuals who were "open carrying" one had felony warrants, one had hidden red and blue lights in his car, one had handcuffs, pepper spray, police jackets, and other items, one had more heroin and syringes in the car then I could shake a stick at. These folks are the exception (I hope) not the rule. Yes I had violations of the law allowing me to identify and detain these individuals not just the fact they were open carrying. So, everyone makes me nervous its not just you.

3. Confrontational, if you are putting on a firearm then hoping the cops stop you so you can show how smart, right, or awesome you are you are stupid. You may be well within your rights but you are stupid. The purpose of carrying a firearms should be defense. Carry for the right reason.

4. Identification, I really just want to earn a paycheck so I can feed my kids and go home to my wife. I understand the reasons for not wanting to provide identification and if you refuse that's fine by me it's your right, assuming you have not violated any laws. But consider this, you know who else refuses to carry ID or identify themselves to police? Drug cartel members (they do it so they don't get deported again), individuals with warrants who have violated the law and refused to handle it correctly. So still not saying you have to ID yourself but it sends red flags to officers. Heck years ago I had an individual who refused to ID himself, long story short he murdered several people in AZ and was on the FBI's most wanted. If you were me would you be seeing warning signs?


Questions,

1. Do you mind being contacted in a casual manner? not detained. I seriously just want to talk to you, I love guns and assuming you are not carrying a gigantic piece of crap (hi-point comes to mind) I will ask you how you like it and how it shoots, and maybe if you are selling it (do not tell my wife). Unless you are super busy thats cool too.

2. Why not concealed? From a purely tactical standpoint I would rather have my weapon concealed. A concealed weapon lends to the surprise part of speed, surprise, and violence of action. I am looking for real reasons, not "cause I can". I will accept deterrence as a legitimate reason.

3. How do you want to be approached? Like I said before I cannot just ignore a call I get dispatched to. Man with a gun calls are not entirely uncommon, I must respond and make sure no laws are being violated, or are about to be. Is there anyway I can do that without stepping on your toes or making this a huge deal when it does not need to be? Keep in mind I just want to make sure that you are not going to kill or hurt anyone (that doesn't need killin'). I would have a hard time sleeping if I did not confront an armed individual who later killed someones child.

4. If you could tell a group of cops anything what would you tell us? I will pass it on to my co-workers and hopefully we can avoid stupidity on both ends.

Thanks for reading, thanks for replying.

May I open that I live in a county where OC is an accepted way to travel. In over 40 yeras I have never once been asked for my CPL, and only had one conversation with a Sheriff's deputy....it consisted of two words: Him "hunting" Me "Ya". Palo is correct (at least in the county I live in, and it is as big as the state of Connecticut, but also in Skagit Co, where I used to live (70-05)) The just do not dispatch because someone is OCing. It is a perfectly legal activity, just like wearing BDUs or a hat is.

Now, for your questions:

#1: If you wanted to chit-chat about my various CZ's or Colts, or Olympic Compitition at the local coffee shop, while you are off duty...no, love to. If you wanted to talk to me in an official capicity, It would totally depend on the circumstances. Most likely not. I have a family friend that is in the WSP on the wet side, and in an official capicity I would prefer he leave me alone, (and he does leave me be, officially, even though we go out shooting together, and he even dated my sister for awhile years ago)

#2: I conceal when it is cold enough to wear a coat, and then only because I have a coat on. Why? Training...back in the 50's I was told that "only those up to no-good conceal their weapons"...and comfort...It is much easier, and more comfortable, to carry my full sized Colts or my CZ 85 in an OWB holster which is what I do. I do have a shoulder holster, but I can't stand it.

#3: Nobody bothers you in my county when you OC. No-one notices, too many people do it.

#4: It has been my experience that OC is a great way to NOT be bothered by Bad Guys. I have been in only one situation in over 40 years (I became a US citizen and began OCing in July 1970) where my carry definately defused a very bad situation...a guy that was intent on beating me to a pulp,,,until he saw I was armed (my Colt never left the holster, just seeing I was armed and all of a sudden he had better things to do elsewhere, and left very quickly) I personally have never heard of a felon that was OCing. Felons do not want anyone to know they are armed, why would they display their carry? Now if you are talking about a guy displaying his weapon with the intent to intimidate, that is not open carry, that is an open display...much different.

What should you teach your students? The odds (Probability 99.9999%) are that a person carrying a pistol in a holster and doing nothing with it except carrying...shopping, walking down the street, in the bank, driving his car, whatever normal activity he is doing...is not a threat to anyone, and would probably be the first one to come to your aid if you needed it. This includes people with a $100 pistol in a $20 holster, as well as the guy with the $3000 custom Dan Wessen, in the $125 Alessi leather holster. Because some people are more fortunate financially than others, does not make them better (or worse) than the less fortunate. The best thing when observing someone that is OC, is to just drive on by, wave if you wish, thumbs up...or just ignore is just fine,,,unless you need help,,,then ask for it. We'll do our best for you.

Now I will ask you...Last winter my wife and I were driving down the hwy and caught a bunch of snow that almost ripped off the skid pan on our Audi A6. I was at the side of the road trying to resecure that side pan when the local WSP LT stopped to see if I could use some help (and very kindly offered some of those huge tye wraps to hold the pan up until we could get home and fix the problem perminantly) BTW: he never asked my name, asked for my CPL, only if he could help...

I had on a $1500+ Colt in a $125 custom Alessi holster and was driving a $60k car...now does that make me better than the guy that has a $100 Chevy Vega, wife and 5 kids and a $200 CZ82 in a Czech duty holster? (also me, years ago)? I happen to tan very easily also, BTW/

Edited to add: I am a retired business owner. everything we own is paid for, we have no consumer debt. Has our financial situation improve over the years? Yes, quite a bit. All 5 of our kids are out of school, married and on their own...with no student debt...yes, the Good Lord has belssed us abundantly/
 
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JoeSparky

Centurion
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,621
Location
Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
@joeSparky


Could you please direct me to the statute that makes that a crime? :) Or is it illegal because you think it is.



Question EVERYTHING!!

On every state of which I'm aware the practice of medicine and the prescribing of prescription medications is reserved to those appropriately licensed. For anyone not so licensed the act as described is a crime!
 

GhostOfJefferson

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
137
Location
Lewis Center, OH
[In some states courts have ruled there is no 5A right to remain silent. This is sad.

The nice thing is, if you remain silent anyway, there's nothing they can do about it. That's the beauty of silence, it gives them nothing. And, frankly, it's the advice of the ACLU even in places that pretend you don't have the right. The worst that can happen is you can be hit with some inane unconstitutional "law" because you were silent, but little else. If you talk, then you're gambling on being hit with a lot more, and the odds are stacked in favor of the house on that bet.
 

Utah_Patriot

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
718
Location
Kearns, Utah, USA
Why I have no need to hide behind a screen name never had any issue with harassment. Let the antis contact me.

but thank you for pointing out the obvious but any time spent on Google well give me the same info about you.

8014487574
 

Baked on Grease

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2011
Messages
629
Location
Sterling, Va.
Just so long as you know. I try not to make it easier for them anyhow, it usually takes them a few months to track down personal info on people with only a screen name to go off of.

It helps that this is pretty much the only place I use this screen name, so they really don't have much to go on.

Sent using tapatalk
 

jpm84092

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
1,066
Location
Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
I have enjoyed following this thread and reading the perspectives and opinions of others. Citizens of many states have offered their thoughts and I enjoyed reading them. And, I thought now was as good a time as any to jump in with my $0.02 worth.

I have had only one "official" contact with Utah Law Enforcement and that was at a high profile public event when apparently somebody had caught a glimpse of my concealed firearm. The contact was mutually respectful and the officer ended our "official" conversation and went on to talk guns in general. He ended by saying how much the police appreciate law abiding citizens who go armed for the purpose of lawful self-defense. He told me that in his personal opinion, crime rates would drop if more citizens felt the way I did. The "official" portion of the conversation consisted of him asking me if I was carrying a firearm. I replied that I was. The then asked me if I had a permit and I replied that I did. He did ask to see it and I complied and understood that a bit more vigilance might be needed at a high profile public event. (That was the ex-LEO in me.)

I also commend the OP for attempting to be proactive and elicit meaningful, respectful, and informative dialog from the open carry community. While most of my carry is concealed, I do open carry from time to time. I have never experienced a negative event while open carrying; whether it be in Utah or in my former location, Wisconsin. (I am really glad now that WI has concealed carry as I go back to visit a couple of times per year.)

Carry on my friends; proudly carry on.
 
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