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Police officer looking for respectful dialoge

Logan 5

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
696
Location
Utah
I read a few pages of this thread, and I decided to respond to the OP instead.

Hello,

I am a officer here in Utah, I support the right to keep and bear arms. I am attempting to educate myself and those I work with and also make contacting those who open carry a good experience for all involved. That said I will make a few statements so you understand where I am coming from and then ask several questions and would appreciate your insight.
I find it amusing that the majority of members that posted aggressively to you in the first few pages don't live in Utah. Hmmm. I have lived in a few states other than Utah, and I have to say that out of all of those, Utah has got to be the best place to meet a polite officer.

Statements, These are my personal beliefs

1. When you open carry the police may be called. I work for the citizens of Utah both those who open carry and those who make the call reporting the activity. I have a duty to investigate even if that means driving by, smiling and waving, and then moving on. Please do not fault me for responding to a request from another citizen
You gotta do what you gotta do.

2. Guns make me nervous, some cops with guns make me nervous. I do not know you weapon handling skills, I do not know your intentions. Nothing personal you just get paranoid doing this job for too long. Why? because I have arrested individuals who were "open carrying" one had felony warrants, one had hidden red and blue lights in his car, one had handcuffs, pepper spray, police jackets, and other items, one had more heroin and syringes in the car then I could shake a stick at. These folks are the exception (I hope) not the rule. Yes I had violations of the law allowing me to identify and detain these individuals not just the fact they were open carrying. So, everyone makes me nervous its not just you.
Guns don't make me nervous. What makes me nervous is the cops that I have met that actually make cops as a whole look bad. It scares me that not only do they have a gun on their hip, but a badge that says they can take my life. Too often bad cops have been given the silk glove treatment when they abuse the rights of others, and even a few were given no more than a slap on the hand if they killed someone "accidentally". With that said, I also know of far more non-LEO "gunnies" (gun lovers) that scare me even more. Some are very respectable individuals. Some, however, act as if they are cops when they aren't. I have experienced some very hairy situations involving guns with non-LEOs far more than with LEOs. It's a matter of responsibility. Some people, no matter their employment role, just ain't got the common sense that God gives a snail. Most Law Enforcement Agencies are able to extract the idiots from their force before anything terrible happens. Sadly, they don't always get all of them.

3. Confrontational, if you are putting on a firearm then hoping the cops stop you so you can show how smart, right, or awesome you are you are stupid. You may be well within your rights but you are stupid. The purpose of carrying a firearms should be defense. Carry for the right reason.
I agree 10,000%. Something to add is I hope people don't carry just because they can. You can also speak your opinions freely, too. But that doesn't exactly mean you should. And in reality open carry more than just the Second Amendment, but also the First Amendment. What you carry, how you carry it and how you act while carrying it speak volumes.

4. Identification, I really just want to earn a paycheck so I can feed my kids and go home to my wife. I understand the reasons for not wanting to provide identification and if you refuse that's fine by me it's your right, assuming you have not violated any laws. But consider this, you know who else refuses to carry ID or identify themselves to police? Drug cartel members (they do it so they don't get deported again), individuals with warrants who have violated the law and refused to handle it correctly. So still not saying you have to ID yourself but it sends red flags to officers. Heck years ago I had an individual who refused to ID himself, long story short he murdered several people in AZ and was on the FBI's most wanted. If you were me would you be seeing warning signs?
Man, that is the worst thing to say. "...I really just want to earn a paycheck so I can feed my kids and go home to my wife...." is NOT a good reason to be a cop. I have cops through out my family. And if you do that just for a paycheck, you're not going to last. It takes dedication and love to keep on doing it and doing it well. And if there is no law saying I must ID myself, don't count on my doing it. That is my right.

1. Do you mind being contacted in a casual manner? not detained. I seriously just want to talk to you, I love guns and assuming you are not carrying a gigantic piece of crap (hi-point comes to mind) I will ask you how you like it and how it shoots, and maybe if you are selling it (do not tell my wife). Unless you are super busy thats cool too.
If you're nice to me I'll be nice to you. If you're a dick to me, unless you suspect me (with RS) of a crime, I'm gonna walk away. Also, Hi Point is not a piece of crap. There is no handgun on the market that is as multifunctional as the Hi Point. No where else will you find a .45 acp that can break doors down with ease...club a burglar senseless (again with ease)...provide as a dandy of a boat anchor while fishing...and STILL provide as much inaccuracy in your shooting enough to scare the beegeebers out of your target enough they surrender without firing a shot. No other gun can beat that! :banghead: :lol:

2. Why not concealed? From a purely tactical standpoint I would rather have my weapon concealed. A concealed weapon lends to the surprise part of speed, surprise, and violence of action. I am looking for real reasons, not "cause I can". I will accept deterrence as a legitimate reason.
I see deterrence as the primary reason. But then, I have also learned to take heed to the teachings in the Holy Bible. Like the verse that says "a wise man that sees danger will avoid it. A fool will take it head on." So in essence, beware and be aware.

3. How do you want to be approached? Like I said before I cannot just ignore a call I get dispatched to. Man with a gun calls are not entirely uncommon, I must respond and make sure no laws are being violated, or are about to be. Is there anyway I can do that without stepping on your toes or making this a huge deal when it does not need to be? Keep in mind I just want to make sure that you are not going to kill or hurt anyone (that doesn't need killin'). I would have a hard time sleeping if I did not confront an armed individual who later killed someones child.
I dunno. With steak & lobster? If you're nice to me I'll be nice to you.

4. If you could tell a group of cops anything what would you tell us? I will pass it on to my co-workers and hopefully we can avoid stupidity on both ends.
Realizing that you have a very hard job, I still urge you to read Matthew 7. And Matthew 25:40 is good, too.
Take care and God bless you, bro!
 

Utah_Patriot

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
718
Location
Kearns, Utah, USA
Thank you for taking the time to meet with me.

The OP was just this a well informed LEO
A well educated and knowledgeable officer. He made some very good points and some suggestions that were very useful.

Thanks again for reaching out to the gun community and taking the time to educate other officers in your department.



Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
 

natehunts

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
26
Location
Layton, Utah, USA
It's been a while since i've been to this forum, and I'm glad I found this thread. It has been interesting. To stargateranch, I appreciated your questions and comments and completely understand your concerns and duty. I have openly carried a few times but I primarily conceal carry. If I were open carrying I wouldn't mind at all for an officer to approach me. I would just appreciate the innocent until proven guilty attitude. Treat me with respect and we'd have a good converstion. If you asked for ID, I have no problem producing it. I completely understand where you're coming from and how life is nowadays. Anyway, I appreciate you reaching out like you have.
Thanks,
Nate
 

gobbly

Regular Member
Joined
May 28, 2012
Messages
75
Location
Utah
1. When you open carry the police may be called. I work for the citizens of Utah both those who open carry and those who make the call reporting the activity. I have a duty to investigate even if that means driving by, smiling and waving, and then moving on. Please do not fault me for responding to a request from another citizen.

Personally I would rather have police interested and aware than have them blowing off stuff just because it doesn't sound like the next big bust. It's a fine line, and I will certainly say that the driving by with a smile and wave would be my preferred contact (nothing personal, but no one really wants to deal with cops if we don't have too :D).

2. Guns make me nervous, some cops with guns make me nervous. I do not know you weapon handling skills, I do not know your intentions. Nothing personal you just get paranoid doing this job for too long. Why? because I have arrested individuals who were "open carrying" one had felony warrants, one had hidden red and blue lights in his car, one had handcuffs, pepper spray, police jackets, and other items, one had more heroin and syringes in the car then I could shake a stick at. These folks are the exception (I hope) not the rule. Yes I had violations of the law allowing me to identify and detain these individuals not just the fact they were open carrying. So, everyone makes me nervous its not just you.

It's too easy to forget that police are people as well. They worry about being harmed or killed just like we all do. At the same time, they picked the profession, and choose to stay in it. If fear causes them to operate outside the acceptable bounds, then perhaps it's not the right profession. It's another fine line... (and in no way am I aiming that comment toward you specifically. I like that you pointed out that there were violations that allowed you to properly identify these examples you mentioned :D)

3. Confrontational, if you are putting on a firearm then hoping the cops stop you so you can show how smart, right, or awesome you are you are stupid. You may be well within your rights but you are stupid. The purpose of carrying a firearms should be defense. Carry for the right reason.

I try not to pass judgement on others motivations... To me it's either legal or not, we all do things for different reasons, and I don't think others are obligated to hold themselves up to my ethics or morality. I do expect people to obey the law, so that's the standard I tend to fall back on.

4. Identification, I really just want to earn a paycheck so I can feed my kids and go home to my wife. I understand the reasons for not wanting to provide identification and if you refuse that's fine by me it's your right, assuming you have not violated any laws. But consider this, you know who else refuses to carry ID or identify themselves to police? Drug cartel members (they do it so they don't get deported again), individuals with warrants who have violated the law and refused to handle it correctly. So still not saying you have to ID yourself but it sends red flags to officers. Heck years ago I had an individual who refused to ID himself, long story short he murdered several people in AZ and was on the FBI's most wanted. If you were me would you be seeing warning signs?

This is probably where you and I would diverge the most (for the most part I agree with everything else you've said). I will concede that this might be a tactic criminals use, but that doesn't change the fact that it's also a right afforded to all (specifically, me :D). My understanding is that I am required to identify myself, giving my name and address if asked by a LEO, and I have no problem doing so. However, if not operating a motor vehicle, I don't see any reason that I should give up any of my rights just because criminals decide to take advantage of those same rights. Part of the price we pay for living in a free society I guess.


Questions,

1. Do you mind being contacted in a casual manner? not detained. I seriously just want to talk to you, I love guns and assuming you are not carrying a gigantic piece of crap (hi-point comes to mind) I will ask you how you like it and how it shoots, and maybe if you are selling it (do not tell my wife). Unless you are super busy thats cool too.

Not at all! This goes back to remembering that police are people too :) If approached properly, where I didn't feel I was being interrogated or anything, I might be flattered. We could discuss our hatred for inferior quality firearms. I carry a kimber pro carry II HD, and am in love with it!

2. Why not concealed? From a purely tactical standpoint I would rather have my weapon concealed. A concealed weapon lends to the surprise part of speed, surprise, and violence of action. I am looking for real reasons, not "cause I can". I will accept deterrence as a legitimate reason.

Here I probably diverge from many of the sites members in that I usually CC (with a permit of course). I agree with you on the tactical advantage. If I'm in a place and someone walks in with a gun, intent to cause harm, I figure it's the guys with a gun on their hip who will be the first victims. I would rather have the chance to retreat to a tactical location, with a clear backdrop, some cover, and a stable position I can return fire from, without risking any innocent bystanders. When I do OC, I do it because I think the chances of needing it are slim, and I want to help educate others on their rights (perhaps doing an organized cleanup of the shooting areas out by Utah Lake). Also, in reference to others, there are some people who are authorized to posses their firearms, but for one reason or another are unable to get a CCP (those under 21 come to mind). Sometime OC might be the only choice, and being armed is better than not imo.

3. How do you want to be approached? Like I said before I cannot just ignore a call I get dispatched to. Man with a gun calls are not entirely uncommon, I must respond and make sure no laws are being violated, or are about to be. Is there anyway I can do that without stepping on your toes or making this a huge deal when it does not need to be? Keep in mind I just want to make sure that you are not going to kill or hurt anyone (that doesn't need killin'). I would have a hard time sleeping if I did not confront an armed individual who later killed someones child.

This is a good question, one that I hadn't given much thought before. I guess to start off with, if you hand is on your gun butt, I might get nervous (as I'm sure you would be if my hand was on mine :D). Beyond that it's all more subtle. If you came up demanding to see some ID or asking me what I was doing there I suspect I'd be more apt to go on the defensive, give my name and address, and be reluctant to answer other questions. At the same time, you would certainly have an agenda (verifying legality and collecting whatever information you thought was relevant), and you have gotta do your job to the best of your ability.

There's a more fundamental issue here though, in my mind at least. If a police officer is approaching me in an official capacity (as opposed to just chit chatting because we both might have an interest in firearms), I have to assume they are looking for a crime or a criminal. Me knowing that I am not guilty of a crime is not enough to put me at ease in that situation. There are plenty of stories of mistaken identity, and police making honest mistakes. I can't know that the bank down the street wasn't just robbed and I'm being viewed as a suspect, or what. I have to assume that anything I say could be used against me, guilty or not, and not being a lawyer, I am unqualified to determine exactly what information I should offer up or not. So it is conceivable that there is really nothing you can do to put me at ease in such a situation. You might just have to accept that just like you take steps to protect yourself on the job, I will take steps to protect myself, and that's just the positions we find ourselves and each other in. The best you might be able to do is try to understand that I am not acting the way I am because I don't like you, or don't respect you, I simply am taking steps to legally protect myself, as is my right.

I imagine this is exceedingly difficult. You assuredly encounter more criminals than I do police officers. I can't give you a more specific or simple answer, though I wish I could :(

4. If you could tell a group of cops anything what would you tell us? I will pass it on to my co-workers and hopefully we can avoid stupidity on both ends.

Thank you!

Though we might not always act like it, we all live a better life because of the hard work you and your coworkers put in every day. You, or someone you work with, will likely lay your life down to help protect us, and there's nothing I could say that would show the proper gratitude.

Also, I would like to thank you for caring enough to seek out our opinions! That right there tells me that you not only care about doing the best job you can, but you have a sincere interest in the people of your community. It is very much appreciated, and I hope you find my views helpful!
 

gobbly

Regular Member
Joined
May 28, 2012
Messages
75
Location
Utah
So I purposely responded to the OP without reading the responses. Didn't want to taint my responses or get off topic.

However, since I took the time since to read all the posts and this seemed to keep coming up with stated disbelief:

I regularly listen to a police scanner, mostly SLCPD, but occasionally UPD. When a call goes out from dispatch they always follow one of two formats. In both cases, the first part of the call is a description and address, occasionally preceded by an alternating audio tone to indicate it is a more serious call. Next the dispatcher either calls out a primary callsign and a backup (indicating which officers are being dispatched), or ask if anyone is in the area, in which case an officer will respond with their callsign, and another officer will offer to back[up]. It is quite obvious that these are not offers, but orders. Sometime later you will hear the same callsigns announced by the officers, and they will report something like 'nocase', 'citation', '1 in custody, on the way to jail' with a starting mileage, or other relevant resolution. This happens on EVER dispatch. There is no choice, no option to say 'sounds like a boner, not going to bother', they are being dispatched to a location, and it is quite evident that they are required to go to that location. It's obvious that once they get there they have broad latitude to evaluate the situation and take any number of courses of action.

Again, there is no question in my mind, if you even spend a little time listening in, that these dispatches are not optional, they are being ordered to a location. If you want to continue to disbelieve, that's your choice, but if you want to actually see for yourself, head on over to http://www.radioreference.com/apps/audio/?ctid=2794 and witness it for yourself...
 
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stargateranch

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
100
Location
West Jordan
Thanks Gobbly

Thank you for the responses, I have read every response here and learned a great deal and that is why I am here reading, lurking as it may be. Be safe folks!
 

The Big Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Waco, TX
This is a long thread and I just came accross it and have not had time to read it all. Has anyone suggested how important it is for dispatchers to be properly trained? Let's look at a scenerio:

911... what is the nature of your call?
Caller... Im at Wal-Mart and there is a guy with a gun.

911...Does he have it in his hand, is he threatening anyone?
Caller...No.

911...What is he doing?
Caller... It looks like he is pushing a cart through the automotive section, yes he's getting wiper blades.

911...It is perfectly legal to be armed in this state and as long as he is not doing anything suspisious there is nothing we can do.
Caller...You mean he can just run around with a gun on his hip?
911...Yes. Open carry is legal and many people do it to provide for their own protection.

And so ends the call and further police resources are not wasted.

TBG
Henderson NV
 
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OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Cops do not encounter many 'criminals', but more like a bunch of nitwits who can't recall what the posted speed limit is at any given moment during their drive or remember that for safety reasons all of the lights on their car need to work.

Cops typically meet folks who forgot to update their tags, mail the check to the insurance company, or burned a doob/downed a cool frosty friendly or two or three after work, just to unwind, before they head home to The Wife and the curtain climbers.....criminals, hardly.....nitwits, you bet.

Now when cops meet 'criminals' they typically have a near 100% success rate when attempting to arrest 'criminals'.

Cops do have a tough job; keeping safe, from themselves, the nitwits of this great nation.....the patients of Job I do not have where nitwits are concerned. Cops are not so much law enforcers but that aunt or uncle that smacks you in the back of the head when you start cutting up in church.
 

Tucker6900

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
1,279
Location
Iowa, USA
This is a long thread and I just came accross it and have not had time to read it all. Has anyone suggested how important it is for dispatchers to be properly trained? Let's look at a scenerio:

911... what is the nature of your call?
Caller... Im at Wal-Mart and there is a guy with a gun.

911...Does he have it in his hand, is he threatening anyone?
Caller...No.

911...What is he doing?
Caller... It looks like he is pushing a cart through the automotive section, yes he's getting wiper blades.

911...It is perfectly legal to be armed in this state and as long as he is not doing anything suspisious there is nothing we can do.
Caller...You mean he can just run around with a gun on his hip?
911...Yes. Open carry is legal and many people do it to provide for their own protection.

And so ends the call and further police resources are not wasted.

TBG
Henderson NV

Or this:

Caller: there is a man with a gun in a holster.
911: (questions what the man is doing)
Caller: He's shopping in the ladies underwear section.
911: What he is doing is legal. Ill send an officer to write you a citation for misuse of the 911 system.

See....ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it. Its also no excuse to use ignorance of one law to break another. If I were to walk south on a sidewalk on a Sunday, when the town law states you can only walk north, and an officer stops me and writes me a ticket, I am guilty. Regardless of the fact that I was unaware of the law.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
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May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
--snip-- If I were to walk south on a sidewalk on a Sunday, when the town law states you can only walk north, and an officer stops me and writes me a ticket, I am guilty. Regardless of the fact that I was unaware of the law.

Unfortunately I have seen such laws enforced occasionally - we are better off w/o them.

When officer writes you a ticket, you are charged and still presumed innocent - at least that is the way it is supposed to work.:p
 

Medic1210

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2012
Messages
298
Location
Rockingham, NC
2. Guns make me nervous, some cops with guns make me nervous. I do not know you weapon handling skills, I do not know your intentions. Nothing personal you just get paranoid doing this job for too long. Why? because I have arrested individuals who were "open carrying" one had felony warrants, one had hidden red and blue lights in his car, one had handcuffs, pepper spray, police jackets, and other items, one had more heroin and syringes in the car then I could shake a stick at. These folks are the exception (I hope) not the rule. Yes I had violations of the law allowing me to identify and detain these individuals not just the fact they were open carrying. So, everyone makes me nervous its not just you.

I've read this entire thread, and even gave my input a few pages back. Unfortunately, the thing that bugs me the most about all this is what I quoted above. I didn't say anything initially, because I figured another member would have chimed in by now. The problem I have is that you give not one, but four extreme examples of dealing with open carriers who range from one with outstanding felony warrants, to drug heads, to two supposed cop impersonators. I'm sorry, but my angus meter has been going off about this for a while now. I know there is no way we'll ever know if these claims are true, but I find them highly suspicious, and leaning more towards hyperbole to help you support your admitted nervousness around guns, as well as your whole reasoning for why you feel you need to respond to OC calls. One case of an OC individual being caught breaking the law, yeah, I could buy that, but 4 separate cases by one cop? And then that one cop who has actually taken the time to come to an OC board to "better understand" the practice? Given the statistics that have proven OC individuals are most always law abiding citizens simply exercising their 2nd Amendment right, the fact that you "personally" have 4 separate cases that go against that strikes me as peculiar. How many OC individuals do you interact with on a daily basis? With such a low instance of OC'ers breaking the law, you must deal with hundreds to have personally dealt with 4 separate bad apples... And since OC isn't even that prevalent, I highly doubt that. Again, my angus meter is twisting my gut. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but since without documented, verifiable accounts of your claims, I have to believe we're getting fed some just so you can "prove" the reason behind your stance.
 
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Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
I've read this entire thread, and even gave my input a few pages back. Unfortunately, the thing that bugs me the most about all this is what I quoted above. I didn't say anything initially, because I figured another member would have chimed in by now. The problem I have is that you give not one, but four extreme examples of dealing with open carriers who range from one with outstanding felony warrants, to drug heads, to two supposed cop impersonators. I'm sorry, but my angus meter has been going off about this for a while now. I know there is no way we'll ever know if these claims are true, but I find them highly suspicious, and leaning more towards hyperbole to help you support your admitted nervousness around guns, as well as your whole reasoning for why you feel you need to respond to OC calls. One case of an OC individual being caught breaking the law, yeah, I could buy that, but 4 separate cases by one cop? And then that one cop who has actually taken the time to come to an OC board to "better understand" the practice? Given the statistics that have proven OC individuals are most always law abiding citizens simply exercising their 2nd Amendment right, the fact that you "personally" have 4 separate cases that go against that strikes me as peculiar. How many OC individuals do you interact with on a daily basis? With such a low instance of OC'ers breaking the law, you must deal with hundreds to have personally dealt with 4 separate bad apples... And since OC isn't even that prevalent, I highly doubt that. Again, my angus meter is twisting my gut. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but since without documented, verifiable accounts of your claims, I have to believe we're getting fed some just so you can "prove" the reason behind your stance.

Does give one pause, does it not? More so than usual too.
 

gobbly

Regular Member
Joined
May 28, 2012
Messages
75
Location
Utah
I've read this entire thread, and even gave my input a few pages back. Unfortunately, the thing that bugs me the most about all this is what I quoted above. I didn't say anything initially, because I figured another member would have chimed in by now. The problem I have is that you give not one, but four extreme examples of dealing with open carriers who range from one with outstanding felony warrants, to drug heads, to two supposed cop impersonators. I'm sorry, but my angus meter has been going off about this for a while now. I know there is no way we'll ever know if these claims are true, but I find them highly suspicious, and leaning more towards hyperbole to help you support your admitted nervousness around guns, as well as your whole reasoning for why you feel you need to respond to OC calls. One case of an OC individual being caught breaking the law, yeah, I could buy that, but 4 separate cases by one cop? And then that one cop who has actually taken the time to come to an OC board to "better understand" the practice? Given the statistics that have proven OC individuals are most always law abiding citizens simply exercising their 2nd Amendment right, the fact that you "personally" have 4 separate cases that go against that strikes me as peculiar. How many OC individuals do you interact with on a daily basis? With such a low instance of OC'ers breaking the law, you must deal with hundreds to have personally dealt with 4 separate bad apples... And since OC isn't even that prevalent, I highly doubt that. Again, my angus meter is twisting my gut. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but since without documented, verifiable accounts of your claims, I have to believe we're getting fed some just so you can "prove" the reason behind your stance.

Personally, I wouldn't have commented on that specifically because I try to respect other people's feelings. Irrational in my mind or not, I think it's important that we don't try to invalidate them. After all, we're all entitled to our own opinions, we all have our unique experiences that shape how we think, and I've never felt comfortable passing judgement on that.

Actions are a completely different thing. It's ok in my mind for someone to feel nervous around me, for whatever reason they might have. However, I still expect them to treat me with respect and obey the law, just as I would treat them and behave myself, despite me possibly not agreeing with what they believe. If you read my response to the OP on that particular section of their post you'll notice that I am focused on how I expect a police officer to act, not what I expect to be going on in their heads.

I personally think our culture spends too much time focused on trying to get others to agree with us, or control what people think. I believe that having different opinions and beliefs is what makes life interesting :)
 
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VW_Factor

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Messages
1,092
Location
Leesburg, GA
I've read this entire thread, and even gave my input a few pages back. Unfortunately, the thing that bugs me the most about all this is what I quoted above. I didn't say anything initially, because I figured another member would have chimed in by now. The problem I have is that you give not one, but four extreme examples of dealing with open carriers who range from one with outstanding felony warrants, to drug heads, to two supposed cop impersonators. I'm sorry, but my angus meter has been going off about this for a while now. I know there is no way we'll ever know if these claims are true, but I find them highly suspicious, and leaning more towards hyperbole to help you support your admitted nervousness around guns, as well as your whole reasoning for why you feel you need to respond to OC calls. One case of an OC individual being caught breaking the law, yeah, I could buy that, but 4 separate cases by one cop? And then that one cop who has actually taken the time to come to an OC board to "better understand" the practice? Given the statistics that have proven OC individuals are most always law abiding citizens simply exercising their 2nd Amendment right, the fact that you "personally" have 4 separate cases that go against that strikes me as peculiar. How many OC individuals do you interact with on a daily basis? With such a low instance of OC'ers breaking the law, you must deal with hundreds to have personally dealt with 4 separate bad apples... And since OC isn't even that prevalent, I highly doubt that. Again, my angus meter is twisting my gut. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but since without documented, verifiable accounts of your claims, I have to believe we're getting fed some just so you can "prove" the reason behind your stance.

Not to mention his claim that people in his neck of the woods regularly roll down the highways and biways waving their guns around in fits of road rage. Right....
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
SNIP Personally, I wouldn't have commented on that specifically because I try to respect other people's feelings. Irrational in my mind or not, I think it's important that we don't try to invalidate them. After all, we're all entitled to our own opinions, we all have our unique experiences that shape how we think, and I've never felt comfortable passing judgement on that.

Huh!?!

This forum is precisely the place to comment. He's entitled to his opinion. And, he's entitled to having it shot down in flames if he voices that opinion here. Nobody required him to pass his opinion along to the rest of us. Simply put, if he's free to voice his opinion, then the rest of us are free to voice ours--about his. This is a forum. There are times and places to "respect others feelings." An OP with those kinds of holes isn't one of them.

Also, this ain't the ladies garden club discussing flox and hydrangeas, where somebody will get the swoons and vapors if an indelicate comment is made. We're all big boys here. And, so is Stargateranch. In fact, he is a cop. Cops have thick skins. Very thick skins. And, he makes a profession out of questioning other people's actions, answers, and motives. If he affects being offended at such commentary, I'm sure its for show.
 
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gobbly

Regular Member
Joined
May 28, 2012
Messages
75
Location
Utah
Huh!?!

This forum is precisely the place to comment. He's entitled to his opinion. And, he's entitled to having it shot down in flames if he voices that opinion here. Nobody required him to pass his opinion along to the rest of us. Simply put, if he's free to voice his opinion, then the rest of us are free to voice ours--about his. This is a forum. There are times and places to "respect others feelings." An OP with those kinds of holes isn't one of them.

Also, this ain't the ladies garden club discussing flox and hydrangeas, where somebody will get the swoons and vapors if an indelicate comment is made. We're all big boys here. And, so is Stargateranch. In fact, he is a cop. Cops have thick skins. Very thick skins. And, he makes a profession out of questioning other people's actions, answers, and motives. If he affects being offended at such commentary, I'm sure its for show.

I guess my point is that though I don't agree with you, I would rather point out my views, as opposed to spending my time trying to say why yours are wrong. If this were the place to shoot down other people's opinions that we didn't agree with there wouldn't be much dialog, just a lot of arguing about who is right. If any one of our opinions were the only opinions accepted as correct, then the site would be rather boring imo.

I certainly hope people voice their opinions, but I don't see it as productive to spend your time trying to invalidate others. That's all I'm saying.

Takes all kinds though :) and I'm glad that though we might disagree, we have a place we can discuss :)
 
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Tucker6900

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
1,279
Location
Iowa, USA
See that is an opinion. You aren't an opinion officer you are a LEO. It could be that a person wants to make a political statement (1st Amendment) by carrying their gun openly. You don't get to make that decision for them.

And if the op actually believes that, then he's just as clueless as the next officer.
 

rushcreek2

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2010
Messages
909
Location
Colorado Springs. CO
This may have already been touched upon. The recent excessive tactical measures employed by the Aurora, Colorado PD in apprehending that Wells Fargo Bank robbery suspect vividly illustrates the necessity for some serious re-calibration of law enforcement agency attitudes in dealing with LAW-ABIDING members of our society.

Will the next evolution of this approach to apprehending criminals involve summoning all citizens for an appointment in the "interview room" who may fit the description of a suspect ? Does any line of demarcation exist beyond which "officer safety" may does not "trump" the LAW ?

I acknowledge that being a patrol LEO is perhaps the most difficult job in the world to perform "perfectly" to everyone's satisfaction - but THE LAW sets reasonable boundaries upon tactical measures that are available.
I have no tolerance for a LEO asserting "officer safety" while aiming a gun at the head of an unarmed citizen- or for that matter a law-abiding citizen wearing a holstered sidearm. There are lots of behavioral patterns that people may not personally approve of that are nevertheless LAWFUL. Again - it is time to RE-CALIBRATE.
 
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