stargateranch said:
Again not saying its a wrong answer, it just does not help me figure out how to swap the engine in my bug or help me understand the benefits of mowing your lawn in the early hours.
If the answer you get isn't the answer you needed, ask a better question.
I had the pleasure of watching a city attorney mentally backtrack through his questions of me (in a deposition) when he'd made a couple assumptions & eventually ran into a logical dead-end.
I'd been answering completely truthfully, and pretty much literally.
Also stopped a SGT cold when I (
again, completely truthfully) answered his question about how many guns were in my house.
me: I don't know, but I'm guessing at least 5.
him: WHERE ARE THEY?
me: On your hips.
him: (pause) That's a good one.
Then he started asking better questions, & I shut up.
stargateranch said:
1. When you open carry the police may be called.
When you go to church, the police may be called.
When you write your legislator, the police may be called.
When you vote, the police may be called.
Doesn't make much sense for those rights either.
2. Guns make me nervous, some cops with guns make me nervous.
I do not know your weapon handling skills, I do not know your intentions.
Other than the few whom I know socially, and the
very few with whom I've shot, cops with guns make me nervous, esp. when they're looking on me as their next excuse to do paperwork for several hours.
I've read enough news stories of people being killed for holding a cell phone, or not "obeying commands" because they had an MP3 player blaring, to be VERY concerned for my safety around armed LEO.
As others have pointed out, many citizens are better (& safer) with their pistols than many LEO. We probably practice more often than most LEO. And even the FBI has released studies saying that criminals (for the most part) don't carry openly. (And almost never use a holster.) They couldn't withstand the scrutiny.
3. Confrontational... The purpose of carrying a firearms should be defense. Carry for the right reason.
I don't have to have a reason. I have the right.
Rights don't require reasons.
Do you ask someone to give you a good reason before you think it's OK for them to worship?
I carry primarily for personal defense (96%). I'll also defend any child. Adults would be determined on a case by case basis.
I do carry to raise awareness about the right to bear arms (2%),
and I do carry simply because I can (2%).
Not legally required unless I'm carrying concealed, or in an area restricted to licensees.
If LEO aren't allowed to stop random cars to check for valid licenses, how much less acceptable (legally) is it to stop random citizens and demand identity documents, esp. if the sole reason for doing so is the citizens' legal, lawful, peaceful exercise of a protected civil right?
Do you mind being contacted in a casual manner?
A smile & a nod as we both stand in line at the grocery? Not at all.
Buying me a cup of chai & shooting the breeze? BTDT.
Being invited to the cookout? Love to.
You on duty &/or in uniform, approaching out of the blue & asking questions, not so much. I'd probably treat you like any other random unknown person, which is to say I'd not likely be very interested in conversation, or I'd be cautious about it. And if you try to slip in any official nosiness, that's the end of the interaction.
Personal choice. Comfort. Less possibility of needing to use it. (The BG can see who to avoid.) Speed of access if I do need it. Public education & awareness.
How do you want to be approached?
1) Not at all.
2) With the offering of a large plate of brownies.
3) In a friendly manner & respectfully, just like any other person.
4) If you're single, male, straight, & off duty, the options broaden somewhat.
Seriously, I've written complaint letters when cops screwed up, and I've written complimentary letters when an interaction went well, when the LEO involved respected & upheld my rights. (One Sheriff's deputy basically told a security guard & a baliff to get stuffed when they objected to me wearing an
empty holster into a courthouse.)
If you could tell a group of cops anything what would you tell us?
1) I'm not the enemy. I won't hurt you, unless you're doing something you definitely shouldn't be doing (
e.g. rape). If you're playing by the rules, the worst you have to fear from me is a letter to your Chief. If you're not playing by the rules, I have good lawyers.
2) I see RKBA much the same as any other protected civil right. If you wouldn't stop someone from going into a church (when it's obviously open for business), don't bother me simply for carrying.
As far as ID I would probabaly just ask for a name, my full name is clearly dispalyed on my uniform.
Apples & almonds. You're a public employee doing your job. You while at work, and what you do while at work, is not private. I'm a private citizen, and unless you have a good (legal) reason I don't have to interact with you at all. Even if you're arresting me, I don't have to talk to you.
[
In some states courts have ruled there is no 5A right to remain silent. This is sad.]
when someone refuses ID I flash to all the past experiences I have had with those who refuse to ID themselves.
So you (& other officers) need to have lots of good experiences with LACs to offset your bad experiences with your usual clientele.
Sort of like a speed dating night where the officers all ask for ID, & the LACs all refuse to provide it. Nobody gets hurt, we all get together for drinks afterward.
SovereignAxe said:
Tell your coworkers to please, please, don't answer a legal question if you don't know that answer to it... Lots of people take the words of a cop as gold or hard fact. So if you're unsure of someone's question, either find out for them or tell them to ask a lawyer/consult state law.
SA said:
realize that every arrest you make has tremendous financial consequences for the person involved... I've seen and read plenty of stories of people getting acquitted after all this happens. Or even worse, the person was arrested for a law that doesn't even exist, or one that was repealed recently... After it gets proved in court, he may have already lost his job and spent thousands of dollars on a lawyer proving you were wrong, and that's not right.
I'm in the middle of that right now. It's draining, both emotionally & financially. I know I didn't do anything wrong, but I've had to raise thousands of dollars to pay a lawyer to defend me from the lies of a cop* & the pigheadedness of a DA who doesn't recognize newly-enacted law.
[*
There's that wall of silence & testilying again.]
stargateranch said:
What can I as an officer do to gain trust of an individual? Or as an officer do I have to always be under suspision and that is something I have to live with? Are there officers you trust?
As a random unknown officer approaching me for an unknown reason, I'll do my best to treat you with neutrality, but bear in mind that you look exactly like the officers who have acted badly toward me, so please understand when I'm cautious in my interaction with you.
As others have pointed out, that's pretty much the mindset most LEO have against any non-LEO... we look like the same scum you deal with every day, so you [
generic LEO, not necessarily the OP] use the shortcut of assuming we're all lawless scum. Saves time.
In general, calmness, politeness, professionalism, & perhaps even mutual respect would be good from both sides.
If you choose to get to know me personally, and show that you're basically a stand-up guy, then you could become someone I trust who happens to be employed as a LEO. I have one such, plus a few who have been various flavors of LEO in past careers.
stargateranch said:
I train new officers and teach at the academy. I can train them what to do or not to do.
Good.
I have never asked someone why do they need to carry a gun. I have however been asked why I carry one at church.
Because Bad Guys have committed mass murder in churches across the USA.
Citizen said:
Cops are already supposed to know everybody's 4A and 5A rights
:cough: :splutter: :choke:
Gil223 said:
It is obvious, at least to me, that there are several folks here who hold all LEO's responsible for the actions of a few that may have initiated some professional action against them. If anybody has had 'difficulties' with more than one LEO, I would suggest that they take a look at their own manner of interaction.
colormered said:
Or could it be that several folks here, having been burned by a number of LEO's, are suspicious of all.
What red said.
Some departments (as in the city where I live) have policies from the Chief saying that anyone seen carrying in "his" city will be proned out, their pistol taken, then "the police will determine if you have the right to carry it".
That's a police problem, not a citizen problem.
(Yes, he really did say that. In a news conference. No, it hasn't happened... yet.)