Spideynw
Regular Member
They can definitely choose to not respond. They have no duty to protect.
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Police officer looking for respectful dialoge
- Thread starter stargateranch
- Start date
They can definitely choose to not respond. They have no duty to protect.
Fallschirjmäger
Active member
Spideynw
Regular Member
I don't believe you.
There is ZERO reason to investigate LEGAL activity, let alone victimless activity. Why you feel a moral obligation to investigate victimless activity is beyond me.
colormered
Regular Member
Why "because I can" is reason enough.
Try this on for size. Because I'm proud to exercise this particular aspect of a right that the state has not yet infringed.
You state that YOU would rather have your weapon concealed. Everyone here enthusiastically supports your right to do so, and respectfully requests the same respect for how they choose to lawfully exercise the same right protected in ancient times by the Constitution.
Try this on for size. Because I'm proud to exercise this particular aspect of a right that the state has not yet infringed.
You state that YOU would rather have your weapon concealed. Everyone here enthusiastically supports your right to do so, and respectfully requests the same respect for how they choose to lawfully exercise the same right protected in ancient times by the Constitution.
Medic1210
Regular Member
You, sir, are incorrect. He gets dispatched to a call, no matter how insignificant it may seem to him, it's not his place to decide which one he goes on. Nothing about duty to protect. It's about being his job to go where he's sent.
H
Herr Heckler Koch
Guest
That did not fly at Nuremberg.
The difference often depends not so much as to whether you followed the rules, nor your reason for doing so or not. Instead it depends on where you stand in the judgement of the winning side according to their rules. Life is not fair, but it can be decisively final.
First be true to thine own self.
MKEgal
Regular Member
If the answer you get isn't the answer you needed, ask a better question.stargateranch said:
I had the pleasure of watching a city attorney mentally backtrack through his questions of me (in a deposition) when he'd made a couple assumptions & eventually ran into a logical dead-end.
I'd been answering completely truthfully, and pretty much literally.
Also stopped a SGT cold when I (again, completely truthfully) answered his question about how many guns were in my house.
me: I don't know, but I'm guessing at least 5.
him: WHERE ARE THEY?
me: On your hips.
him: (pause) That's a good one.
Then he started asking better questions, & I shut up.
When you go to church, the police may be called.stargateranch said:
When you write your legislator, the police may be called.
When you vote, the police may be called.
Doesn't make much sense for those rights either.
Other than the few whom I know socially, and the very few with whom I've shot, cops with guns make me nervous, esp. when they're looking on me as their next excuse to do paperwork for several hours.
I've read enough news stories of people being killed for holding a cell phone, or not "obeying commands" because they had an MP3 player blaring, to be VERY concerned for my safety around armed LEO.
As others have pointed out, many citizens are better (& safer) with their pistols than many LEO. We probably practice more often than most LEO. And even the FBI has released studies saying that criminals (for the most part) don't carry openly. (And almost never use a holster.) They couldn't withstand the scrutiny.
I don't have to have a reason. I have the right.
Rights don't require reasons.
Do you ask someone to give you a good reason before you think it's OK for them to worship?
I carry primarily for personal defense (96%). I'll also defend any child. Adults would be determined on a case by case basis.
I do carry to raise awareness about the right to bear arms (2%),
and I do carry simply because I can (2%).
Not legally required unless I'm carrying concealed, or in an area restricted to licensees.
If LEO aren't allowed to stop random cars to check for valid licenses, how much less acceptable (legally) is it to stop random citizens and demand identity documents, esp. if the sole reason for doing so is the citizens' legal, lawful, peaceful exercise of a protected civil right?
A smile & a nod as we both stand in line at the grocery? Not at all.
Buying me a cup of chai & shooting the breeze? BTDT.
Being invited to the cookout? Love to.
You on duty &/or in uniform, approaching out of the blue & asking questions, not so much. I'd probably treat you like any other random unknown person, which is to say I'd not likely be very interested in conversation, or I'd be cautious about it. And if you try to slip in any official nosiness, that's the end of the interaction.
Personal choice. Comfort. Less possibility of needing to use it. (The BG can see who to avoid.) Speed of access if I do need it. Public education & awareness.
1) Not at all.
2) With the offering of a large plate of brownies.
3) In a friendly manner & respectfully, just like any other person.
4) If you're single, male, straight, & off duty, the options broaden somewhat.
Seriously, I've written complaint letters when cops screwed up, and I've written complimentary letters when an interaction went well, when the LEO involved respected & upheld my rights. (One Sheriff's deputy basically told a security guard & a baliff to get stuffed when they objected to me wearing an empty holster into a courthouse.)
1) I'm not the enemy. I won't hurt you, unless you're doing something you definitely shouldn't be doing (e.g. rape). If you're playing by the rules, the worst you have to fear from me is a letter to your Chief. If you're not playing by the rules, I have good lawyers.
2) I see RKBA much the same as any other protected civil right. If you wouldn't stop someone from going into a church (when it's obviously open for business), don't bother me simply for carrying.
Apples & almonds. You're a public employee doing your job. You while at work, and what you do while at work, is not private. I'm a private citizen, and unless you have a good (legal) reason I don't have to interact with you at all. Even if you're arresting me, I don't have to talk to you.
[In some states courts have ruled there is no 5A right to remain silent. This is sad.]
So you (& other officers) need to have lots of good experiences with LACs to offset your bad experiences with your usual clientele.
Sort of like a speed dating night where the officers all ask for ID, & the LACs all refuse to provide it. Nobody gets hurt, we all get together for drinks afterward. SovereignAxe said:
I'm in the middle of that right now. It's draining, both emotionally & financially. I know I didn't do anything wrong, but I've had to raise thousands of dollars to pay a lawyer to defend me from the lies of a cop* & the pigheadedness of a DA who doesn't recognize newly-enacted law.SA said:
[*There's that wall of silence & testilying again.]
As a random unknown officer approaching me for an unknown reason, I'll do my best to treat you with neutrality, but bear in mind that you look exactly like the officers who have acted badly toward me, so please understand when I'm cautious in my interaction with you.stargateranch said:
As others have pointed out, that's pretty much the mindset most LEO have against any non-LEO... we look like the same scum you deal with every day, so you [generic LEO, not necessarily the OP] use the shortcut of assuming we're all lawless scum. Saves time.
In general, calmness, politeness, professionalism, & perhaps even mutual respect would be good from both sides.
If you choose to get to know me personally, and show that you're basically a stand-up guy, then you could become someone I trust who happens to be employed as a LEO. I have one such, plus a few who have been various flavors of LEO in past careers.
Good.stargateranch said:
Because Bad Guys have committed mass murder in churches across the USA.
:cough: :splutter: :choke:Citizen said:
Gil223 said:
What red said.colormered said:
Some departments (as in the city where I live) have policies from the Chief saying that anyone seen carrying in "his" city will be proned out, their pistol taken, then "the police will determine if you have the right to carry it".
That's a police problem, not a citizen problem.
(Yes, he really did say that. In a news conference. No, it hasn't happened... yet.)
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i am a cop, and i disagree with a lot of what you believe, so this could get interesting. fwiw, i have 20+ yrs law enforcement experience, and time as a training officer, detective, and even a deep undercover assignment, so rather diverse set of experiences
1) here in WA our dispatchers won't even send us when somebody calls to report a person open carrying, UNLESS he is doing something wacky etc. they will tell the caller "it's not a crime" and is fully protected. however, i agree. if i am called, i will drive to the location, and look. there is no rights violation there. but i will not make a stop of somebody for open carrying, because in my state, it's CLEARLY protected activity
2) guns don't make me nervous. they are inanimate objects. i know that lawful carriers are also amongst the MOST law abiding demographic there is. i am cautious around everybody, but somebody who is carrying (CCW etc.) i know that STATISTICALLY speaking, they are LESS likely to assault me, let alone shoot me. apart from elderly mormon grandmas, they are about the safest group of people to be around
3) i agree
several of my coworkers are open carriers. personally, don't even concealed carry off duty very often. i am here because i support the RIGHT to carry.
it's pretty much a non-issue imo. open carriers are starting to become more accepted in WA. 15 yrs ago, it was much more rare.
now, people are starting to realize - no big deal
JoeSparky
Centurion
So, PALO, why the snide (or was it bigoted) comment about certain grandmothers?
Bad Joke?
Bad attempt at bad joke?
or some sort of anti-(specific religion)?
Or just a complete fail at humor?
Bad Joke?
Bad attempt at bad joke?
or some sort of anti-(specific religion)?
Or just a complete fail at humor?
it wasn't snide. it was acknowledging that
1) the elderly commit less crime per capita
2) women commit less crime (especially violent crime per capita)
3) mormons are amongst the most law abiding demographic as described by religion. iow, mormons on average, per capita, are less likely to commit part I and part II crimes than adherents to many other religions.
so, if one was to give an example of a demographic that, statistically speaking (iow on average) i would have less to fear from (in regards to assault, etc.) mormon grandmothers would fit that bill
hth
JoeSparky
Centurion
Then I misunderstood your intended meaning in your statement.... my apologies!
no problem. i appreciate that.
it's one of my memes, iow when describing a law abiding demographic, i often refer to "mormon grandmas"
sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
I have seen both evidence that confirms this and is contrary to it, so I think it isn't a blanket rule in Washington.
I was in DOL, got a phone call so went outside to take it. Man on phone outside with back to me...."...he just sitting there..." "...no its in a holster..." "...White male...." "...What you do you mean you can't do anything about it....."...I asked him when he finished was he calling 911 about me he said yes because what I am doing is "highly unusual".
Then one time at Starbucks a friend and mine having coffee, cops came in one cop said "OH its you" turned around and left (Elmendore) the other shook my hand thanked me for the education, and told me they had a call and are obliged to check it out.
MSG Laigaie
Campaign Veteran
Originally Posted by stargateranch
(1)What can I as an officer do to gain trust of an individual? (2)Or as an officer do I have to always be under suspision and that is something I have to live with? (3)Are there officers you trust?
(1)Clean up your "community". You all look alike, I do not know who to trust, so I am leery of you all.
(2)yes and yes
(3) Yes, many, even family members are LEOs.
Again, in Washington State, the ONLY people that have ever bothered me about my weapon were LEOs.
(1)What can I as an officer do to gain trust of an individual? (2)Or as an officer do I have to always be under suspision and that is something I have to live with? (3)Are there officers you trust?
(1)Clean up your "community". You all look alike, I do not know who to trust, so I am leery of you all.
(2)yes and yes
(3) Yes, many, even family members are LEOs.
Again, in Washington State, the ONLY people that have ever bothered me about my weapon were LEOs.
i am not claiming it is a blanket rule. dispatch rules/policies of course differ WIDELY dept. to dept. our dept. USED to send us on those calls, and of course we'd GO (not wanting to violate policy) but just "observe and report" (lol) iow not make a STOP or even a 'social contact'.
we (patrol officers and sgt's) FINALLY managed to convince the bean counter/admins/copocrats at dispatch that sending us to such details was STUPID since it was not even remotely connected to criminal suspicion.
the last one i got sent on was because the caller said the carriers appeared to be juveniles, which of course WOULD be a law violation
turns out, as i suspected before even arriving , that they were kids with AIRSOFT guns.
i would suggest that any agency that DISPATCHES officers merely because a person reports an open carrier are ASKING for trouble, because they are at least implicitly establishing that they consider open carriers a law enforcement "concern" when in fact they are just people exercising their CLEARLY established rights
sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
I agree it should be done. I am glad you and your fellow cops have decided to operate how you do.
mommaof3
Regular Member
My answers
Well, this is my very first post on here...so hope all goes well
1. I understand the police may be called. I have no problems with you driving past and seeing that I am not a threat to anyone.
2. Guns don’t make me nervous. The people carrying the guns could make me nervous depending on their behavior. I would expect that a person openly carrying a gun to be less of a threat, as they would be VERY obvious and memorable to many people, as OC is still fairly unusual. A possible criminal would be very dumb indeed to walk around with a gun strapped on, while intending to do a crime. Just my little thought on the subject.
3. I carry for defense of myself and my children, not to make a statement. I don’t like all the horror stories you hear now a days…from kidnappings, murders and babies getting molested in the local Wal-mart.
4. Provided the officer treated me with the respect I deserve, I have no trouble showing ID. In my small town, I have had the help of different officers different times. I respect them, they respect me…they always laugh that I finally paid enough seat belt tickets to wear my seatbelt…and laugh they haven’t caught me speeding again. Bad habit. I tell em I’m just to fast for em to catch me. I laughed with Roger when he hid behind that building and finally caught me! Really though, since I am new to the rules, etc…I will learn some more on this great site and get back to you on that statement.
QUESTIONS:
1. I don’t mind being contacted, but then again I can just babble on all day, just ask my poor hubby. As a security person, I had to talk to many people, and I met a lot of great people when I was in security/EMS at our local casino. I met a lot of cool people…and then I met a lot of people I wanted to toss out on their …. Ear. In contact first impression is everything. I think you should keep it “cool”. I had a state trooper find a knife in my hubbys truck he uses to cut carpeting. S.T. acted all dumb and dropped it, and kicked it out of my reach and got all nervous and scared…I rolled my eyes and played along. It turned out fine…but don’t be a Gomer. Was that his name?
2. I would think that having a concealed weapon will bring far less potential legal trouble, from scared people calling 911 on this Momma Bear with my ‘cubs’…but having an OC is my right. It shall not be infringed upon. I can, and I do. (just recently…as I said I am a newbie! An OC says to anyone who wants to grab up one of my babies…that that kind of nonsense will NOT be tolerated. It is an evil person who would try to snatch a young’in from a toy aisle in a retail store. My “Judge” says they will not try.
3. Approach me the same way I was trained too and always liked to approach people. Smile, say hi, introduce yourself. I always said something that gets a “yes” response right away, much the same as a salesperson wants to do the same thing. “It sure is cold out, isn’t it?” or funny, like I always did, “Betchya thought I was out to get ya?” Conversational. Respect me. Talk to me. Laugh with me. DON’T come up and start yelling at me like you’re a king talking to a lowly servant. Don’t order me around within 10 seconds of walking up. Know that I am a person the same as you…except for the wife part. I too just want to go home to my family. I too don’t want to be threatened. I don’t want you to stand arms crossed, legs planted shoulder distance apart glaring at me like a drill Sgt. to a new recruit you don’t like. Don’t look at me like you look at a fly on your table, while you’re rolling up a magazine. In my case, treat me like a woman, a mother, a fellow citizen. I too like guns and I like to talk as well…(obviously!)
4. I kinda just covered that…oh and btw…I don’t like hi-point either, they are a great gun...but I've never been a fan of polymer on guns. noisy on hunting guns...saw a guy drop his, cracked the plastic all the way around. Seriously, if I am carrying a gun in a holster on my hip…odds are, I am not out to commit a crime. I wouldn’t let a gun make me nervous. I would let a guy with shifty eyes and a suspicious lump in his pocket make me nervous before a guy standing in line waiting for a box of chicken nuggets with a holstered gun.
5. One last thing….Stargate ranch? My fav show is Stargate… I think it’s cool you asked these questions. I don’t agree with a gun making you nervous but I see your thoughts behind it. Liking Stargate and being conversational in your initial questions and responses while seeing the other persons point gives you the points back I took away for being nervous of guns.
Well, this is my very first post on here...so hope all goes well
1. I understand the police may be called. I have no problems with you driving past and seeing that I am not a threat to anyone.
2. Guns don’t make me nervous. The people carrying the guns could make me nervous depending on their behavior. I would expect that a person openly carrying a gun to be less of a threat, as they would be VERY obvious and memorable to many people, as OC is still fairly unusual. A possible criminal would be very dumb indeed to walk around with a gun strapped on, while intending to do a crime. Just my little thought on the subject.
3. I carry for defense of myself and my children, not to make a statement. I don’t like all the horror stories you hear now a days…from kidnappings, murders and babies getting molested in the local Wal-mart.
4. Provided the officer treated me with the respect I deserve, I have no trouble showing ID. In my small town, I have had the help of different officers different times. I respect them, they respect me…they always laugh that I finally paid enough seat belt tickets to wear my seatbelt…and laugh they haven’t caught me speeding again. Bad habit. I tell em I’m just to fast for em to catch me. I laughed with Roger when he hid behind that building and finally caught me! Really though, since I am new to the rules, etc…I will learn some more on this great site and get back to you on that statement.
QUESTIONS:
1. I don’t mind being contacted, but then again I can just babble on all day, just ask my poor hubby. As a security person, I had to talk to many people, and I met a lot of great people when I was in security/EMS at our local casino. I met a lot of cool people…and then I met a lot of people I wanted to toss out on their …. Ear. In contact first impression is everything. I think you should keep it “cool”. I had a state trooper find a knife in my hubbys truck he uses to cut carpeting. S.T. acted all dumb and dropped it, and kicked it out of my reach and got all nervous and scared…I rolled my eyes and played along. It turned out fine…but don’t be a Gomer. Was that his name?
2. I would think that having a concealed weapon will bring far less potential legal trouble, from scared people calling 911 on this Momma Bear with my ‘cubs’…but having an OC is my right. It shall not be infringed upon. I can, and I do. (just recently…as I said I am a newbie!
An OC says to anyone who wants to grab up one of my babies…that that kind of nonsense will NOT be tolerated. It is an evil person who would try to snatch a young’in from a toy aisle in a retail store. My “Judge” says they will not try. 3. Approach me the same way I was trained too and always liked to approach people. Smile, say hi, introduce yourself. I always said something that gets a “yes” response right away, much the same as a salesperson wants to do the same thing. “It sure is cold out, isn’t it?” or funny, like I always did, “Betchya thought I was out to get ya?” Conversational. Respect me. Talk to me. Laugh with me. DON’T come up and start yelling at me like you’re a king talking to a lowly servant. Don’t order me around within 10 seconds of walking up. Know that I am a person the same as you…except for the wife part. I too just want to go home to my family. I too don’t want to be threatened. I don’t want you to stand arms crossed, legs planted shoulder distance apart glaring at me like a drill Sgt. to a new recruit you don’t like. Don’t look at me like you look at a fly on your table, while you’re rolling up a magazine. In my case, treat me like a woman, a mother, a fellow citizen. I too like guns and I like to talk as well…(obviously!)
4. I kinda just covered that…oh and btw…I don’t like hi-point either, they are a great gun...but I've never been a fan of polymer on guns. noisy on hunting guns...saw a guy drop his, cracked the plastic all the way around. Seriously, if I am carrying a gun in a holster on my hip…odds are, I am not out to commit a crime. I wouldn’t let a gun make me nervous. I would let a guy with shifty eyes and a suspicious lump in his pocket make me nervous before a guy standing in line waiting for a box of chicken nuggets with a holstered gun.
5. One last thing….Stargate ranch? My fav show is Stargate… I think it’s cool you asked these questions. I don’t agree with a gun making you nervous but I see your thoughts behind it. Liking Stargate and being conversational in your initial questions and responses while seeing the other persons point gives you the points back I took away for being nervous of guns.
sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
Momma, welcome to the forum.
I would like to address the point were you said you have no problem showing your ID, that is your choice, but please think about the effect it has on enabling the officers in thinking they can request/coerce/demand to see ID, if I happen to be the next encounter after you, he might not be so willing to accept the fact I am not going to surrender my ID.
It might seem like a small detail in the scope of things but to some of us it isn't. To me the 4th amendment is worth taking a stand against any intrusion.
I would like to address the point were you said you have no problem showing your ID, that is your choice, but please think about the effect it has on enabling the officers in thinking they can request/coerce/demand to see ID, if I happen to be the next encounter after you, he might not be so willing to accept the fact I am not going to surrender my ID.
It might seem like a small detail in the scope of things but to some of us it isn't. To me the 4th amendment is worth taking a stand against any intrusion.
mommaof3
Regular Member
Thanks!
Thanks for the welcome, and thanks a lot for the informative answer on the ID. As I stated to Stargateranch, I knew I would learn more about all of this, as I am new to OC, this forum and new to the idea that I don't HAVE to give my ID. I am glad I have found this site, and am learning a lot already just by reading your posts. I know I need to know my amendments and what they mean to me...I was always in the outskirts of the 'sheeple' I never quite "fit in" there. I always asked to many questions...I wanted to know all the answers, why do I have to do it this way? Why do they have that? Why do they do that? Why does no one question?
I think I really started to wake up when I began to have my 3 awesome little 'cubs'! What example do I set for them by questioning but not taking action? I am glad I am here, and can learn from you guys. I appreciate the feed back and the knowledge. We can never know enough. Perhaps the ID thing is simply due to the fact I grew up in a small town. I know all the people on the Department. We all laugh and joke, (except that mean crabby lady who's all full of herself)sometimes even talking in Kwik Trip over coffee. I have never met a cop outside of my small area, and I am kind of known here for losing my ID. They just roll their eyes at me and say "again?" I certainly have more to learn, and I thank you for the response. I look forward to learning more.
Thanks for the welcome, and thanks a lot for the informative answer on the ID. As I stated to Stargateranch, I knew I would learn more about all of this, as I am new to OC, this forum and new to the idea that I don't HAVE to give my ID. I am glad I have found this site, and am learning a lot already just by reading your posts. I know I need to know my amendments and what they mean to me...I was always in the outskirts of the 'sheeple' I never quite "fit in" there. I always asked to many questions...I wanted to know all the answers, why do I have to do it this way? Why do they have that? Why do they do that? Why does no one question?
I think I really started to wake up when I began to have my 3 awesome little 'cubs'!
What example do I set for them by questioning but not taking action? I am glad I am here, and can learn from you guys. I appreciate the feed back and the knowledge. We can never know enough. Perhaps the ID thing is simply due to the fact I grew up in a small town. I know all the people on the Department. We all laugh and joke, (except that mean crabby lady who's all full of herself)sometimes even talking in Kwik Trip over coffee. I have never met a cop outside of my small area, and I am kind of known here for losing my ID. They just roll their eyes at me and say "again?" I certainly have more to learn, and I thank you for the response. I look forward to learning more.