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Police officer looking for respectful dialoge

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
I apologize if I violated the terms of service. Sincerely. I know of no other way to respond to an insinuation that responsibility for our own safety hinges on our "attitudes". My intent was to present compelling evidence to the contrary, in this case, I attached 28 news stories from various regions of the US regarding police abuse of power. All 28 stories were from the past seven days.

From a recent historical perspective, I included information on the brutal death of Kelly Thomas, a mentally ill homeless person, and some of the circumstances surrounding his demise.

I don't believe I formulated or submitted any statements of my own that could be construed as "cop bashing".

And to the moderator that trimmed my post.....While true that my contributions could "provide an open invitation to same".....please consider who supplied the material to the news sources. And those news sources and those 28 stories are readily found in a simple internet search. Nothing I distorted or contrived to make a point.

That the post wasn't deleted should say something.

OCDO is dedicated to promoting and defending open carry of handguns. The purpose/intent of this forum doesn't allow trying to find and correct LEO misconduct, although some instances do become cause celebre for various reasons.

Was a judgement call that has been made before and will be made again when necessary.

Hope you understand.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
SNIP If it really was that bad it would be in the news and not in your heads.:idea:

I reject your premise about the nonexistence of matters not reported in the news. Local matters are not much reported in the national news by ABC, CNN, CBS, etc.

Traditional news outlets are losing ground to the internet, and have been for several years.

The bad-policing information got into my head by looking for it and being alert for new sources.

Google Will Grigg, a blogger who tracks, highlights, and offers critical analysis of bad cops.

Also, google Injustice Everywhere, a blog that keeps track of local news reports of bad policing.

And, google OverKill: the Rise of Paramilitary Police in America. Google, too, its author, Radley Balko, another chronicler of bad policing.


Also, "it" got into my head by way of (gasp!) critical thinking. At one level, a person can view cell-phone videos and watch news reports. At another level, one can look for things beyond what is presented, and ask questions. All it takes is a little bit of thinking beyond the actual information in the video or news report. I'll give a few examples to highlight.

Last year a homeless person in the west was mortally beaten by police, the victim dying shortly after in the hospital. The hospital bed photo was widely circulated on the internet. A witness or two uploaded their cell phone video. There is no doubt the homeless man was already subdued and the beting was gratuitous. There were 4-6 six beater cops.

The previous year, a college student in Maryland was beaten by police after a game. The college security camera video disappeared, eventually to be "found" by the security office. The cops were on that street corner as crowd control. Three or four cops were involved in the brutality, and a number of others were within feet and yards.

So, here is the example of thinking beyond what is merely presented. The example is in the form of a question: What are the odds that the only six bad cops in the homeless man's city just happened to be at that scene at that time?

Same for the college student. What are the odds that the only three bad cops in the whole city just happened to be on that street corner at that time? And, what are the odds that the only cops who would turn a blind eye or lie or not report the incident to the investigation (until the video tape resurfaced) were exactly the few cops nearby? Also noteworthy is that official video tapes that would support claims of police abuse seem to have a high incidence of "technical problems" of some sort. So much so, that a couple years ago a justice in a state appellate court in the south (Mississipi, Lousiana, Alabama?) took official notice of it in his dissent.

Here is another highlight. A few years ago (2-3), the public started videoing cops more and more. And, cops started seizing cell phones, threatening arrest, and in some cases manhandling the video-ers. Since then a number of courts have come down saying videoing cops is protected by the First Amendment, and the police reaction has become a lot less. So, today it is less of an issue than it was just two years ago. But, I paid some attention as it unfolded.

Now, it is totally a no-brainer that recording a public official executing his duties in public would be protected by the First Amendment. And, the police justifications for the seizures and threats were facially specious. And, we all have the right to be free from all restraint and interference unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. (Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford, quoted and revalidated in Terry v Ohio)

There are the obvious abuses against cell video-ers. But, there are two other points. Across this great land, while this issue was more live, I found exactly and only one cop who advocated the rights of the video-ers in writing to the rest of the police world. The public silence of police was deafening. And, what kind of man just up and seizes another human being's property without clear and unquestionable authority of law? There were no crimes being committed, there was no probable cause even as a warrant exception for those seizures, and certainly no justification for the threats of arrest. What kind of man threatens to kidnap another human being for being a good citizen?
And, what kind of men keep silent about it?

There are "good" cops out there. They need to speak up and get rid of the bad ones, of which there are far more than might be supposed if one only counts those who take bribes, sell drugs, etc.
 
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JoeSparky

Centurion
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,621
Location
Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
Directed toward Hahah, Flicker, Billybadboy, or whatever your next logon will be---Following Citizen's comments--- I seem to remember some issues in location near you of police misconduct. It even occurred at an agency you used to work at. It didn't involve you but may have involved those you knew. Appropriately, when the situations came to light the agency dealt with these situations and the were reported in the local press.
The willingness of these agencies to actually enforce the law even when it involved their employees should and must be applauded. This is one of the reasons we don't have as many incidents and those we do have may not be as egregious as other area of our County, State, or Country have experienced and will experience whenever anyone either willfully violates the rights of another or just goes along with it and worse yet-- actively attempt to cover it up!
 
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Fuller Malarkey

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2010
Messages
1,020
Location
The Cadre
Hope you understand.

Yes I do. To an extent. Peace must be kept. I understand that from my moderator duties on other forums.


OCDO is dedicated to promoting and defending open carry of handguns. The purpose/intent of this forum doesn't allow trying to find and correct LEO misconduct, although some instances do become cause celebre for various reasons.

Respectfully, Grapevine, what is the purpose of this thread if not to consider the issues between police and citizens? And taking everything one step further......

Once you are properly and confidently armed and about your business out there in the Commonwealth, the likelihood of another citizen, with criminal intent....and adequate functioning visual abilities....... assaulting you is what, slim....and none. As the result of the efforts of yourself and others in Virginia, the right AND acceptance of open carry is nearly universal......with the exception of one entity. Would you care to venture who I am alluding to? A hint can be found on YouTube by searching for "open carry". The first 31 videos will involve open carriers and the police. I think we both will agree the purpose of open carry is for personal protection. We have a difference of opinion WHO we need protecting FROM.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
SNIP I think we both will agree the purpose of open carry is for personal protection. We have a difference of opinion WHO we need protecting FROM.

Thus, the Bill of Rights was born. Not in the sole context of police, who would not be invented for another forty years, but in the broader context of governement in general.

Eight hundred years have elapsed since Magna Carta. Eight hundred years of blood and treasure expended in the struggle to protect people from government. Police are now a part of that picture.

Who we need protecting from? Indeed. With exclamation points!
 
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hahah

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
32
Location
herriman
Which officer are you referring to? JoeSparky's forty-year friend, or the OPer? (rhetorical question posed as a hint to please be a little more clear)

I do sincerely hope my attitude is showing! I want people to see through the public-relations image projection and spin of police, their unions, and accreditation agencies. I want people to see the primary sources of the reduction of their 4th Amendment rights against unreasonable search and seizure.

Mr. Citizen,
The Primary sources and reduction of any rights have not been due to Police Officers actions. These rights have been defined more clearly through the years by court rulings and decisions. That is the forum where the actions of Officers and Citizens are weighed and measured and a reasonable balance determined and an opinion produced by the said court.

I do not wish to debate if your search and seizure rights have been reduced or diminished. Take that to the courts. I do not wish to debate or discuss actions or attitudes of the Police Officers. (what does that have to do with guns?):rolleyes:

Can we get back to guns now?



My opinions are my own. I do not represent the opinions of anyone else or any entity.
 

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
...I do not wish to debate or discuss actions or attitudes of the Police Officers. (what does that have to do with guns?):rolleyes:...

If you really open carried in public, you'd probably not need to ask.:rolleyes:
 

hahah

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
32
Location
herriman
If you really open carried in public, you'd probably not need to ask.:rolleyes:

I go about my business.
I answer questions and produce Id when asked.
I say thank you.
I go home and smile.

Do you have a different experience?
What was it that you did?
 

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
...I go about my business.
I answer questions and produce Id when asked.
I say thank you.
I go home and smile.

So you are saying that these illegal requests for your ID happen whether you are armed or not. Interesting! My apologies for doubting you!
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Mr. Citizen,
The Primary sources and reduction of any rights have not been due to Police Officers actions. These rights have been defined more clearly through the years by court rulings and decisions. That is the forum where the actions of Officers and Citizens are weighed and measured and a reasonable balance determined and an opinion produced by the said court.

I do not wish to debate if your search and seizure rights have been reduced or diminished. Take that to the courts. I do not wish to debate or discuss actions or attitudes of the Police Officers. (what does that have to do with guns?):rolleyes:

Can we get back to guns now?

My opinions are my own. I do not represent the opinions of anyone else or any entity.

You may not wish to discuss it, but you opened the door by questioning my attitude.

And, nice attempt to unartfully exclude certain subjects. Oh, well. Too bad. Here it comes.

Police are the biggest source of resistance to OC we've encountered. Another poster already addressed this from another angle just above. So, the actions and attitudes of police have a direct bearing on OC. And, since OC has a lot to do with the how and why of our gun rights, police are closely related to guns and OC for the purposes of this forum.

And, since police resistance to OC has overwhelmingly involved 4A and 5A violations, rather than 2A, then the 4A and 5A are very relevant to OCers. And, since the big picture is as or more important to a good grasp on the situation, overall police effects on the 4A and 5A are relevant to discussions here.

You don't want to discuss 4A effects by police? Yet, you take a moment to awkwardly discuss it by shifting the burden to courts and then validating them? Oh, well. Here it comes. And, thank you for accidentally validating my argument in advance.

That is to say, thank you for mentioning that courts are the forum for weighing the reasonableness of police actions. If the police have so little effect on the 4A, then how come there are so many new questions and new angles being litigated at the appellate level? Meaning, if the previous decisions control, how come police are inventing new ways to test? How come police do things--without legislative authority--that are not already covered in the case law? How come police look for and exploit loopholes in the decisions? In a nutshell, if police genuinely respected the 4A and 5A, they wouldn't consider doing anything that came anywhere near opening a new question without legislative authority. I've read dozens and dozens of case summaries where police tried a novel justification for this or that search or seizure, twisting, bending, or loopholing the controlling cases. I say expressly that police are the prime source of reductions in 4A. The courts only confirm or deny their attempts. The courts don't originate reductions; they only approve or disapprove of the ones the police try to pull. That is the nature of appellate courts. They only address the question presented to them. They don't originate questions and then seek litigants.

It doesn't take a screaming genius to respect rights. All it takes is to recognize what it cost to obtain them across 800 years of bloody history, and to hold them dear. Too many police, on the other hand, are all too willing to accept that this or that little piece of a right doesn't exist simply because a costumed government lawyer said so. "Hey! We can do this now! The judge said so! Yay!"

You want to discuss carrying guns? Fine. I submit that any who are unwilling to discuss where the other rights are disappearing, or at least look and see if they are disappearing, may one day have a hard time carrying their guns in peace. Or, keep them at home. Or, obtain them in the first place. It wasn't the Stamp Act and Intolerable Acts alone that poisoned relations with England. According to John Adams, the spark of revolution was born in the courtroom of Paxton's case, a case arising because the king's agents could search anywhere for whatever they wanted on their say-so alone (Writs of Assistance), breaking into shops, homes, farms, cellars, private chests, and bedrooms. Meaning, it was the enforcement mechanism of the Acts--Writs of Assistance: a total lack of protection against unreasonable search and seizure--the really lit the fuze.

Its not only whether something wholesome or unoffending is made illegal. It is how the government finds out about it. Knowledge is power. If they can't find out, it is that much harder for them to prosecute for an unjust law. And, that much harder for them to stumble onto something I didn't know was illegal while searching for something else.
 
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Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
How long does it take to start walking normally again?

Ouch. Now, play nice MAC. Just because he considers police superior and is willing to spit on the graves of the literally 1 million Americans who died defending these rights by waiving them doesn't mean we should be mean to him.

I mean really. Police are heroes, risking life selflessly to protect the rest of us. We should honor and respect them. And, comply with their every request, because, after all, they're just trying to protect us and go home at the end of the day. And, all the blood and treasure expended winning rights are really not applicable any more. I mean, that was then, this is now. That was the king and his nasty church prelates; these are our police. You see the difference don't you?

/sarcasm
 

hahah

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
32
Location
herriman
You may not wish to discuss it, but you opened the door by questioning my attitude.

And, nice attempt to unartfully exclude certain subjects. Oh, well. Too bad. Here it comes.

Police are the biggest source of resistance to OC we've encountered. Another poster already addressed this from another angle just above. So, the actions and attitudes of police have a direct bearing on OC. And, since OC has a lot to do with the how and why of our gun rights, police are closely related to guns and OC for the purposes of this forum.

And, since police resistance to OC has overwhelmingly involved 4A and 5A violations, rather than 2A, then the 4A and 5A are very relevant to OCers. And, since the big picture is as or more important to a good grasp on the situation, overall police effects on the 4A and 5A are relevant to discussions here.

You don't want to discuss 4A effects by police? Yet, you take a moment to awkwardly discuss it by shifting the burden to courts and then validating them? Oh, well. Here it comes. And, thank you for accidentally validating my argument in advance.

That is to say, thank you for mentioning that courts are the forum for weighing the reasonableness of police actions. If the police have so little effect on the 4A, then how come there are so many new questions and new angles being litigated at the appellate level? Meaning, if the previous decisions control, how come police are inventing new ways to test? How come police do things--without legislative authority--that are not already covered in the case law? How come police look for and exploit loopholes in the decisions? In a nutshell, if police genuinely respected the 4A and 5A, they wouldn't consider doing anything that came anywhere near opening a new question without legislative authority. I've read dozens and dozens of case summaries where police tried a novel justification for this or that search or seizure, twisting, bending, or loopholing the controlling cases. I say expressly that police are the prime source of reductions in 4A. The courts only confirm or deny their attempts. The courts don't originate reductions; they only approve or disapprove of the ones the police try to pull. That is the nature of appellate courts. They only address the question presented to them. They don't originate questions and then seek litigants.

It doesn't take a screaming genius to respect rights. All it takes is to recognize what it cost to obtain them across 800 years of bloody history, and to hold them dear. Too many police, on the other hand, are all too willing to accept that this or that little piece of a right doesn't exist simply because a costumed government lawyer said so. "Hey! We can do this now! The judge said so! Yay!"

You want to discuss carrying guns? Fine. I submit that any who are unwilling to discuss where the other rights are disappearing, or at least look and see if they are disappearing, may one day have a hard time carrying their guns in peace. Or, keep them at home. Or, obtain them in the first place. It wasn't the Stamp Act and Intolerable Acts alone that poisoned relations with England. According to John Adams, the spark of revolution was born in the courtroom of Paxton's case, a case arising because the king's agents could search anywhere for whatever they wanted on their say-so alone (Writs of Assistance), breaking into shops, homes, farms, cellars, private chests, and bedrooms. Meaning, it was the enforcement mechanism of the Acts--Writs of Assistance: a total lack of protection against unreasonable search and seizure--the really lit the fuze.

Its not only whether something wholesome or unoffending is made illegal. It is how the government finds out about it. Knowledge is power. If they can't find out, it is that much harder for them to prosecute for an unjust law. And, that much harder for them to stumble onto something I didn't know was illegal while searching for something else.

Again your argument is not with me. i share my opinion. that is all. i have not made these decisions.

thank you so much for meaningless banter. i will go elsewhere for expect opinions on those topics.


I don't share you fear or hostility towards police Officers. Seems that you are even hostile toward me. Is that only because i have a different opinion? Are there underlying issues? how can i help you my friend?

wish we could talk about guns and not spout fear and hate.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Again your argument is not with me. i share my opinion. that is all. i have not made these decisions.

thank you so much for meaningless banter. i will go elsewhere for expect opinions on those topics.


I don't share you fear or hostility towards police Officers. Seems that you are even hostile toward me. Is that only because i have a different opinion? Are there underlying issues? how can i help you my friend?

wish we could talk about guns and not spout fear and hate.

Hahahahahaha.

Go elsewhere for expert opinions? Where do you think I got them? From people expert in their spheres, of course.

Nice try at twisting things. Me hostile to you? You were the one who leveled the "in your heads" insult.

If you want to talk about guns, please do. I'm not stopping you. But, it seems you'd rather spend time making direct and oblique insults at others.

"Spout fear and hate"? Exaggerate much? Where's the fear and hate? Hate towards cops aka cop-bashing is a banning offense on this forum, locked down fast by moderators.

But, I find it illuminating that you accuse fear spouting at fairly civil and well-articulated pro-freedom arguments.

Tell you what. Unless you can actually argue the points to which you opened the door, I'll leave you alone now so you can discuss guns on a cop's thread about cops and OCers.
 
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hahah

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
32
Location
herriman
Hahahahahaha.

Go elsewhere for expert opinions? Where do you think I got them? From people expert in their spheres, of course.

Nice try at twisting things. Me hostile to you? You were the one who leveled the "in your heads" insult.

If you want to talk about guns, please do. I'm not stopping you. But, it seems you'd rather spend time making direct and oblique insults at others.

"Spout fear and hate"? Exaggerate much? Where's the fear and hate? Hate towards cops aka cop-bashing is a banning offense on this forum, locked down fast by moderators.

But, I find it illuminating that you accuse fear spouting at fairly civil and well-articulated pro-freedom arguments.

Tell you what. Unless you can actually argue the points to which you opened the door, I'll leave you alone now so you can discuss guns on a cop's thread about cops and OCers.

I guess i just haven't had the negative experiences that would make me hostile.

the only hostility i have felt was from members here on the forum. I won't hate to fit in.

again my experience on life dictates that it is about attitude.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
I guess i just haven't had the negative experiences that would make me hostile.

the only hostility i have felt was from members here on the forum. I won't hate to fit in.

again my experience on life dictates that it is about attitude.

OK. This I can understand. No hate or fitting in required. (I'm guessing you're using the latest colloquial meaning for "hate" rather than the classic definition.)

However, continued willful ignorance is a bit dangerous.

Please do take some time to research the current state of affairs in the policing industry.

For myself, it wasn't so much the negative encounters I've had with police. What really got my attention was the indifference, lies, and cover-up by the command structure. And, when I saw other OCers experiencing the same command indifference, lies, and cover-up, it only served to make me aware the problem was more widespread than the couple of departments I'd run into. This all started me paying attention and finding out more. The butthead cops who came around here with their arrogance, misrepresentations about rights, and demands for deference helped, too. Those cats opened many doors because it took research to find the facts to shoot them down. Imagine how many facts and statistics and court opinions come to light when 10 pro-rights OCers are all researching or heaving in facts and links they already have. All that knowledge gets shared around in one thread. A fella gets a lot more and faster than if he tried to do all that researching himself.
 
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