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Thread: Living with the threat of Public Menace charge and other concerns

  1. #1
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    Living with the threat of Public Menace charge and other concerns

    I wonder if there are those who really make day-to-day decisions for themselves based upon what they believe is-or-is-not / should-or-should-not-be legal, or if they really give advice based upon such opinions. If I think I have the moral right to something, I'd better be willing to bet that I can explain my rationale well enough to the police or to a judge to get me out of a jam. Otherwise, such opinions can only be relevant in the context of legislative activism - actually starting a movement and working with my district's rep to get a proposition going. That's the very place I find myself now. Unanswered questions - assumptions and unnecessary risk.

    In many gun shops in WA, they sell the 'Workman' booklet ("Washington State Gun Rights and Responsibilities" by Dave Workman). My copy is the latest 2011 revision. In chapter 4, 'Concealed and Open Carry', the book, in no uncertain terms, claims that an individual may be arrested and 'rightfully so' for OC or even 'printing' while CC and charged with 'public menace' under RCW 9.41.270 AND have their CPL revoked! Either Workman is a liar, or I actually do 'roll the dice' each and every time I may accidentally show a portion of my holster or even weapon - let alone wear openly - that somebody may get nervous and call the police. Why should I have to live with this anxiety every day of my life - if its my bloody right?

  2. #2
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    RCW 9.41.270
    Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm — Unlawful carrying or handling — Penalty — Exceptions.

    (1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

    (2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:
    (a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;
    (b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;
    (c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;
    (d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or
    (e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments.

    Elements of the crime -
    1) Mens rea
    2) manner,
    3) circumstances,
    4) time and
    5) place
    Without all Five being present no violation.

    One may note that it doesn't say concealed, open, or even printing. The mere carrying of one of the named instruments is sufficient.

    I'd say Workman's opinion was incorrect but.... as we all know, you can be arrested for eating a ham sandwich on Sunday to the detriment of public order. Proving that's a different kettle of pie.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 02-25-2012 at 10:57 PM.

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    Regular Member Freedom First's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RioDio View Post
    ...Why should I have to live with this anxiety every day of my life - if its my bloody right?
    If you don't, they win. By default. That is why.

    So, do you worry about the legality of this? Then either convince yourself on the facts and walk that way or just surrender your Right to carry in the face of your own ignorance. This is not a personal attack, just the facts: You are undecided as to what the law says so you live in fear. Read and understand the law and walk based on what you know, not what you feel.

    We Americans, not just OCers, have to stand in the face of encroaching tyranny and honestly be willing to pay the price for those Rights.

    I live with anxiety on a daily basis but I do not fear the law, instead it's those who would put themselves above any law. These tyrants threaten my children's Freedom and do so willingly. And while I fear them I intend to stand against them in both the public square and in my daily life. OC is just part of that.
    Freedom can never be lost, only given away by ignorance, by choice, or at the point of a gun. Here in America we can still choose.

    Freedom First 1775

    "I aim to misbehave..." Malcolm Reynolds

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RioDio View Post
    Workman is a liar
    hehe

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RioDio View Post
    I wonder if there are those who really make day-to-day decisions for themselves based upon what they believe is-or-is-not / should-or-should-not-be legal, or if they really give advice based upon such opinions. If I think I have the moral right to something, I'd better be willing to bet that I can explain my rationale well enough to the police or to a judge to get me out of a jam. Otherwise, such opinions can only be relevant in the context of legislative activism - actually starting a movement and working with my district's rep to get a proposition going. That's the very place I find myself now. Unanswered questions - assumptions and unnecessary risk.

    In many gun shops in WA, they sell the 'Workman' booklet ("Washington State Gun Rights and Responsibilities" by Dave Workman). My copy is the latest 2011 revision. In chapter 4, 'Concealed and Open Carry', the book, in no uncertain terms, claims that an individual may be arrested and 'rightfully so' for OC or even 'printing' while CC and charged with 'public menace' under RCW 9.41.270 AND have their CPL revoked! Either Workman is a liar, or I actually do 'roll the dice' each and every time I may accidentally show a portion of my holster or even weapon - let alone wear openly - that somebody may get nervous and call the police. Why should I have to live with this anxiety every day of my life - if its my bloody right?
    Workman is wrong.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Very interesting. I actually talked with Dave about his wording at the top of page 12 in his booklet yesterday at the WAC show. I too believe that it is worded poorly. Dave believes that he is NOT referring to those that OC, but just the general bubba type guy who carries with a CPL. I will continue to attempt to persuade him that the language is inaccurate as Dave refers to a 'good way to lose your CPL' in the passage. If I remember correctly only a judge can take away your CPL.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member NavyMike's Avatar
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    Cop tried to cite Workman's booklet as the law

    On Friday I got pulled over for speeding near Anacortes. I had my pistol in the glovebox becuase I'd left from work and can't carry at work. I chose to hand my CPL to the cop (Yes, I know that I did not have to).

    The cop asked me where my pistol was and I replied "In my glove compartment".

    He said 'It's against the law to not have it on your person, when in the car, and he could write me a citation for that".
    I asked him which RCW stated that it was illegal, to which he responded "It's not a written law it's a common sense law".

    I asked "How could he write a citation for a non written law?"
    His response was that "It was written in the [Workman] Booklet".

    My reply that Workman's booklet was a fine piece of research and opinion; but was not the law, and that the Attorney General had specifically published an opinion that stated it was not illegal, earned me a road side lecture that I did not need.

    The upshot was that showing my CPL did not get me out of a speeding ticket but did extend a simple traffic stop for much longer than I cared for. I won't make that mistake again!
    Last edited by NavyMike; 02-26-2012 at 10:11 AM.
    cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyMike View Post
    On Friday I got pulled over for speeding near Anacortes. I had my pistol in the glovebox becuase I'd left from work and can't carry at work. I chose to hand my CPL to the cop (Yes, I know that I did not have to).

    The cop asked me where my pistol was and I replied "In my glove compartment".

    He said 'It's against the law to not have it on your person, when in the car, and he could write me a citation for that".
    I asked him which RCW stated that it was illegal, to which he responded "It's not a written law it's a common sense law".

    I asked "How could he write a citation for a non written law?"
    His response was that "It was written in the [Workman] Booklet".

    My reply that Workman's booklet was a fine piece of research and opinion; but was not the law, and that the Attorney General had specifically published an opinion that stated it was not illegal, earned me a road side lecture that I did not need.

    The upshot was that showing my CPL did not get me out of a speeding ticket but did extend a simple traffic stop for much longer than I cared for. I won't make that mistake again!
    I hope others learn your lesson too.....
    Live Free or Die!

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyMike View Post
    On Friday I got pulled over for speeding near Anacortes. I had my pistol in the glovebox becuase I'd left from work and can't carry at work. I chose to hand my CPL to the cop (Yes, I know that I did not have to).

    The cop asked me where my pistol was and I replied "In my glove compartment".

    He said 'It's against the law to not have it on your person, when in the car, and he could write me a citation for that".
    I asked him which RCW stated that it was illegal, to which he responded "It's not a written law it's a common sense law".

    I asked "How could he write a citation for a non written law?"
    His response was that "It was written in the [Workman] Booklet".

    My reply that Workman's booklet was a fine piece of research and opinion; but was not the law, and that the Attorney General had specifically published an opinion that stated it was not illegal, earned me a road side lecture that I did not need.

    The upshot was that showing my CPL did not get me out of a speeding ticket but did extend a simple traffic stop for much longer than I cared for. I won't make that mistake again!
    File a complaint for the lecture and the unsubstantiated threat, man I hate it when people do not know how to do their job correctly.

  10. #10
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orphan View Post
    File a complaint for the lecture and the unsubstantiated threat, man I hate it when people do not know how to do their job correctly.
    In the private sector you don't last long for messing up your job.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    n't

    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    In the private sector you don't last long for messing up your job.
    Ain't that the truth. In my former work life, if I made mistakes as often as many police officers do, the morgue would have been very busy.....

    Weathermen and cops are the only two professions I know of where being wrong isn't a big deal....

    Back on topic, a book is a book. It is only as good as the resources available...have there been cases where people have lost their CPL for OC? I believe in Vancouver there have been....
    Last edited by oneeyeross; 02-26-2012 at 11:17 AM. Reason: added on topic point

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    Quote Originally Posted by RioDio View Post
    Why should I have to live with this anxiety every day of my life - if its my bloody right?
    Because there are those who desire to revoke your bloody rights-you must stand up to them and say NO. The best way to do that is to exercise those rights, and when they try to punish you, seek recourse with education and a good lawyer.

    It is a lawful activity to carry a firearm; even if you have a police encounter, it does not automatically guarantee that you will be arrested, charged and prosecuted. If you are prosecuted, you can sue and fight for your rights. Either they are worth having or they aren't. Fear does not serve you.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyMike View Post
    ...

    He said 'It's against the law to not have it on your person, when in the car, and he could write me a citation for that".
    I asked him which RCW stated that it was illegal, to which he responded "It's not a written law it's a common sense law".

    I asked "How could he write a citation for a non written law?"
    His response was that "It was written in the [Workman] Booklet".
    "Well why don't you go ahead and write that citation, Scout? I'd just hate to have anyone thinkin' you wasn't doin' yer job. You need a pen?"

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    "Well why don't you go ahead and write that citation, Scout? I'd just hate to have anyone thinkin' you wasn't doin' yer job. You need a pen?"
    Just so. A system not used cannot function properly. Make 'em document their deficiencies.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    In the private sector you don't last long for messing up your job.
    But, Workman IS in the private sector.

  16. #16
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    But, Workman IS in the private sector.
    His 'survival' is evidence of the failure of the subscription business model, whose customers are not sufficiently attentive or skeptical to withdraw their custom for demonstrated incompetence. Subscriptions are to private business as taxes are to public grubberment.

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    Regular Member NavyMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    "Well why don't you go ahead and write that citation, Scout? I'd just hate to have anyone thinkin' you wasn't doin' yer job. You need a pen?"
    I thought about making a similar response; and then decided that discretion was the better form of valor. That and I had a ferry to catch.
    cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt

  18. #18
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RioDio View Post
    Why should I have to live with this anxiety every day of my life - if its my bloody right?
    In a way you answer your own question. You’re going to feel anxiety is because you’re listening to too much chatter and misinformation. Don’t look at your open carry as a political statement or a demonstration, think of it no different than wearing a watch. The LAW recognizes “It is not unlawful for a person to responsibly walk down the street with a visible firearm…” Walk responsibly, do your business, and don’t do anything illegal. If the police decide to trouble you, remember the mantra: “Officer, am I being detained?”

    The BEST tool at your disposal is knowledge. Don’t think you know the laws, KNOW the laws. Know what is required for an officer to detain you (Terry stops). Know whether he or she is blowing smoke. There is a ton of useful information here in this forum, you just have to sift out all the almost nonstop off topic nonsense. The forum used to be a different place, now it’s a lot more heat than light, but spend some time reading. Knowledge = confidence and confidence will go a long way towards ensuring you don’t have a police encounter.

    Dave is good people, but he bases his opinions on the early days of concealed carry here in Washington, where it almost died on the vine because of yahoos doing stupid stuff. Don’t do stupid stuff and you’ll be OK, his opinion notwithstanding.

  19. #19
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    RioDio:

    Maybe I can help with your anxiety, OK?

    I have OC and CC (mostly OC, and OC mostly without a CPL on me) on both the wet side and the dry side for over 40 years. I have had one encounter with a Chelan Co. Sheriff's deputy. It consisted of two words. Him, "Hunting" Me "Yep" That is it. And yes, I have even carried in Seattle.

    I have never presented my CPL during a traffic stop, and I have never been asked for one, even when my pistol has been holstered in plain sight, (of course, I don't get stopped very often either).

    I am of the opinion, if you do not act like a Nervous Nelly, no one notices. I am also of the opinion that Dave happens to wrong in his opinion as written in his book. We do not live in TX or FL, and we do not have to worry about an open carried, holstered pistol. In over 40 years if that was a real problem, don't you think I would have encountered it? I have been asked to leave my pistol outside at an occational place of business, but that really isn't a problem...I take the gun outside, and myself too, and never come back.

    That said, if you act like a Nervous Nelly and are always checking/handling your holstered weapon, you will draw attention to yourself and that may include undesirable attention. You are doing nothing illegal by OCing, or CC. Act like you KNOW that as a fact, and no-one will bother you.

    Oh, BTW: The most useful "book" is that little booklet that F&W put out with all the laws in it that pertain to firearms. All of 9.41, the F&W laws that pertain to firearms, and the music festival restriction. Read it, learn it, have confidence; you are not doing anything wrong.
    Last edited by hermannr; 02-26-2012 at 03:04 PM.

  20. #20
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Very interesting. I actually talked with Dave about his wording at the top of page 12 in his booklet yesterday at the WAC show. I too believe that it is worded poorly. Dave believes that he is NOT referring to those that OC, but just the general bubba type guy who carries with a CPL. I will continue to attempt to persuade him that the language is inaccurate as Dave refers to a 'good way to lose your CPL' in the passage. If I remember correctly only a judge can take away your CPL.
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyMike View Post
    On Friday I got pulled over for speeding near Anacortes. I had my pistol in the glovebox becuase I'd left from work and can't carry at work. I chose to hand my CPL to the cop (Yes, I know that I did not have to).

    The cop asked me where my pistol was and I replied "In my glove compartment".

    He said 'It's against the law to not have it on your person, when in the car, and he could write me a citation for that".
    I asked him which RCW stated that it was illegal, to which he responded "It's not a written law it's a common sense law".

    I asked "How could he write a citation for a non written law?"
    His response was that "It was written in the [Workman] Booklet".

    My reply that Workman's booklet was a fine piece of research and opinion; but was not the law, and that the Attorney General had specifically published an opinion that stated it was not illegal, earned me a road side lecture that I did not need.

    The upshot was that showing my CPL did not get me out of a speeding ticket but did extend a simple traffic stop for much longer than I cared for. I won't make that mistake again!

    I wish someone would post the excerpts from daves book so we could all understand how his advise is going wrong.

    the printing warning sounds like advice for florida or texas,,, and what is "public menace"?
    the "on your person" in a car has been debated and found wrong, often, right here..

    Ive thought about buying it myself, but 10 bucks for a booklet, written by a OC only guy didnt seem right for me.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  21. #21
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post

    I have never presented my CPL during a traffic stop, and I have never been asked for one, even when my pistol has been holstered in plain sight, (of course, I don't get stopped very often either).
    Chances are he already knew if you had a CPL or not. When you renew your vehicle registration you have to provide the D/L# of all registered owners. Your CPL is cross referenced to your D/L in the State system. If he had a Mobile Data Terminal and keyed in your License Number before approaching your car, all that info could be right there for him to see.

    After the recent shooting of the State Trooper near Bremerton/Port Orchard I would expect to see more caution on their part.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    I wish someone would post the excerpts from daves book so we could all understand how his advise is going wrong.

    the printing warning sounds like advice for florida or texas,,, and what is "public menace"?
    the "on your person" in a car has been debated and found wrong, often, right here..

    Ive thought about buying it myself, but 10 bucks for a booklet, written by a OC only guy didnt seem right for me.
    Note: Last PP page 11 and top of page 12.

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    Live Free or Die!

  23. #23
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Note: Last PP page 11 and top of page 12.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Careful. Workman hates fair use... he might sue you

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1190406
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 02-26-2012 at 04:44 PM.

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Wow. Some of that reads like a Bellingham Police Department training bulletin. I had no ideas of my "responsibilities" as a CPL holder.
    To be fair, there is more in the chapter about open carry...I do think that Dave after getting to know a few of us has moved his opinion from being against to being neutral.
    Live Free or Die!

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyMike View Post
    He said 'It's against the law to not have it on your person, when in the car, and he could write me a citation for that".
    I asked him which RCW stated that it was illegal, to which he responded "It's not a written law it's a common sense law".

    !
    Call the Gods and beg forgiveness, if they start writing citations for "Common Sense Violations". Can you imagine the sheer number of government officials that would be arrested. It boggles the bloody mind.
    Last edited by MSG Laigaie; 02-26-2012 at 05:04 PM.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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