• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

CCW Permit Issued in AZ not Valid in NV For NV Resident

DocWalker

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,922
Location
Mountain Home, Idaho, USA
Maybe, maybe not. If it was really 'all about the money,' they would not recognize ANY out-of-state permits. Given the recent changes to the recognition list, whether anyone believes there is an 'all about the money' component, the rationale given for removal from recognition was logical in application, and not arbitrary.

Ok we will say Money and Politics then.

Arizona will take Utah's CCW as good and Nevada will take Arizonia's provided you are not a Nevada resident.......But Nevada will not except a Utah CCW even though Arizonia is cool with it...hmmmm

Utah is the second most recongnized CCW next to Florida by the number of states, If AZ is good with the UT CCW then why isn't NV? Must be money or politics.
 

wrightme

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
Ok we will say Money and Politics then.
No, I will still disagree, and state that the rationale for the changes was logically applied.

DocWalker said:
Arizona will take Utah's CCW as good and Nevada will take Arizonia's provided you are not a Nevada resident.......But Nevada will not except a Utah CCW even though Arizonia is cool with it...hmmmm
NV recognizes other state permits based upon NV criteria, not upon AZ criteria.
DocWalker said:
Utah is the second most recongnized CCW next to Florida by the number of states, If AZ is good with the UT CCW then why isn't NV? Must be money or politics.
No, it is false to claim "must be money or politics." It is more correct to say that the standards as defined in statute were logically applied, how it appears notwithstanding.


As a similar argument, we should deny out-of-state permits from AZ, since NY doesn't recognize out-of-state permits from AZ.
 
Last edited:

DocWalker

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,922
Location
Mountain Home, Idaho, USA
No, I will still disagree, and state that the rationale for the changes was logically applied.

NV recognizes other state permits based upon NV criteria, not upon AZ criteria.

No, it is false to claim "must be money or politics." It is more correct to say that the standards as defined in statute were logically applied, how it appears notwithstanding.


As a similar argument, we should deny out-of-state permits from AZ, since NY doesn't recognize out-of-state permits from AZ.

I guess we will disagree on this as I believe it has to do with money and politics.

I have to take an 8 hour course in Utah to get my CCW from Utah but the course in Nevada isn't as demanding. Arizona will take the fact I use a weapon for my job, my accadamy training and issue me one through the mail without taking a class. But Nevada still won't take Utahs but will take Arizona's

Utah I have to attend an 8 hour class given by a certified instructor even with my training.

Arizona I can get one in the mail.

I guess it has nothing to do with politics or money then.

Arizona doesn't have higher standards or better classes than Utah or Nevada.

IT IS POLITICS AND MONEY, also check out the CCW websites they tell you what states are recognized in what states.

Florida is recognized in 39 I believe.

Utah is recognized in 38

All others are below that, this is why they hold Utah CCW courses in Virgina, Wisconson and other states.
 

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
...I have to take an 8 hour course in Utah to get my CCW from Utah but the course in Nevada isn't as demanding....

UT does not require a live-fire qualification. NV does. How is that less demanding?
 

DocWalker

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,922
Location
Mountain Home, Idaho, USA
UT does not require a live-fire qualification. NV does. How is that less demanding?

Well Arizona CCW can be done by mail but Nevada recognizes it, no live fire there.

Again it all comes down to either money or politics; who comes up with the state standards....not the NRA. In Nevada I believe the people that make the laws take advice from a group of LE on what the standards should be.
 

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
Well Arizona CCW can be done by mail but Nevada recognizes it, no live fire there....

Actually the AZ permit does "require" live fire, but they also recognize other documents (including the military discharge papers of someone who served as a cook aboard a destroyer) as proof of firearms familiarity and sometimes you can actually get your permit without having actually done any. This is a loop hole around the live-fire requirement, but it does technically exist.
 

NAVYBLUE

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
109
Location
Peoples Republic of North Las Vegas
Well Arizona CCW can be done by mail but Nevada recognizes it, no live fire there.

Again it all comes down to either money or politics; who comes up with the state standards....not the NRA. In Nevada I believe the people that make the laws take advice from a group of LE on what the standards should be.

Doc,

In my opinion it is about CONTROL and POWER by state LEO associations (ie: Sheriffs Associations). I say that as someone who had an Uncle (retired OK state police) and brother (PA LEO) and LEO experience while in the NAVY (28 years). I have traveled in (49) states and the conversations I've had with LEOs has led me to believe when you have POWER (possession of a weapon) there is a reluctance to allow others who you consider LESS than you to have that same power.

At the many ranges I have gone to across the U.S. while traveling in my motor coach after I retired, I have consistently watched serious non LEO weapon holders perform at or above the level of the active duty LEOs on the range.

So why then the requirements for classes in NV which has a reputation with Libertarian leanings? The police/sheriffs think that NO ONE can be as good as them. It is called the GOD complex. You experience the same smugness from doctors who think you couldn't possibly know what you are talking about when you suggest symptoms or forms of treatment for a medical condition you have.

The NV sheriffs have convinced the legislature that they are the moral authority on weapon "rationing" in the state. In my travels I have found that the further you get away from the Northeast US, Illinois and California and the remaining metropolitan areas the "smarter" and less GOD complex the LEOs are.

My hope is before I die(not planning on it in the near future) that I somehow play a small part in getting NV to become a "constitutional carry) state by sheer intimidation and fear through the ballot box as that is the only thing politicians fear.

As far as Arizona goes there are only (2) reasons to get a CCW from there. One is to get reciprocity from as many states as possible and for those situations where a CCW permit allows you to do certain things that a constitution carry in the state does not allow you to do. And in case you don't know Doc, you can CCW or OC in Arizona
without a permit in Arizona in most situations.

Doc, I just bought a home in Las Vegas 5/11 as my final retirement home. While at the Ft Huachuca Army Post RV park in 1/11-2/11, I went to Walmart to pick up some things. What I saw in Walmart nearly floored me. There was a 70ish year old guy with cowboy boots, cowboy hat, cowboy shirt and (2) Colt 45s in holsters with leather leg straps. I thought, did I make a wrong turn somewhere and end up in Tombstone. I never saw anything like that in PA where you can OC. After the initial shock I realized I liked that

Long/short, stopped at a Sierra Vista gun shop that day, got the low down on the 2010 constitutional carry law and signed up for a CCW class. So when you said you took a (3) hour CCW class, my tingle alarm went off. My instructor was Joshua Mayne of LightFighter CCW (former Army weapons instructor) of Sierra Vista and from him I gathered the Arizona CCW is (8) hours minimum. Also we did have to range qualify.

That being said, to all I have been a lurker for about (6) months and wanted to get the "flavor" of the site before I jumped in. Will start to OC once I get my CCW so I can switch back and forth for reasons I am not at liberty to discuss because my age (63) and wisdom has taught me the "enemy" watches and listens and would like to stop or limit some of our rights. Not paranoid, just careful.

I have learned a lot from you guys and hope to learn more.


NAVYBLUE
 

DocWalker

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,922
Location
Mountain Home, Idaho, USA
Doc,

In my opinion it is about CONTROL and POWER by state LEO associations (ie: Sheriffs Associations). I say that as someone who had an Uncle (retired OK state police) and brother (PA LEO) and LEO experience while in the NAVY (28 years). I have traveled in (49) states and the conversations I've had with LEOs has led me to believe when you have POWER (possession of a weapon) there is a reluctance to allow others who you consider LESS than you to have that same power.

At the many ranges I have gone to across the U.S. while traveling in my motor coach after I retired, I have consistently watched serious non LEO weapon holders perform at or above the level of the active duty LEOs on the range.

So why then the requirements for classes in NV which has a reputation with Libertarian leanings? The police/sheriffs think that NO ONE can be as good as them. It is called the GOD complex. You experience the same smugness from doctors who think you couldn't possibly know what you are talking about when you suggest symptoms or forms of treatment for a medical condition you have.

The NV sheriffs have convinced the legislature that they are the moral authority on weapon "rationing" in the state. In my travels I have found that the further you get away from the Northeast US, Illinois and California and the remaining metropolitan areas the "smarter" and less GOD complex the LEOs are.

My hope is before I die(not planning on it in the near future) that I somehow play a small part in getting NV to become a "constitutional carry) state by sheer intimidation and fear through the ballot box as that is the only thing politicians fear.

As far as Arizona goes there are only (2) reasons to get a CCW from there. One is to get reciprocity from as many states as possible and for those situations where a CCW permit allows you to do certain things that a constitution carry in the state does not allow you to do. And in case you don't know Doc, you can CCW or OC in Arizona
without a permit in Arizona in most situations.

Doc, I just bought a home in Las Vegas 5/11 as my final retirement home. While at the Ft Huachuca Army Post RV park in 1/11-2/11, I went to Walmart to pick up some things. What I saw in Walmart nearly floored me. There was a 70ish year old guy with cowboy boots, cowboy hat, cowboy shirt and (2) Colt 45s in holsters with leather leg straps. I thought, did I make a wrong turn somewhere and end up in Tombstone. I never saw anything like that in PA where you can OC. After the initial shock I realized I liked that

Long/short, stopped at a Sierra Vista gun shop that day, got the low down on the 2010 constitutional carry law and signed up for a CCW class. So when you said you took a (3) hour CCW class, my tingle alarm went off. My instructor was Joshua Mayne of LightFighter CCW (former Army weapons instructor) of Sierra Vista and from him I gathered the Arizona CCW is (8) hours minimum. Also we did have to range qualify.

That being said, to all I have been a lurker for about (6) months and wanted to get the "flavor" of the site before I jumped in. Will start to OC once I get my CCW so I can switch back and forth for reasons I am not at liberty to discuss because my age (63) and wisdom has taught me the "enemy" watches and listens and would like to stop or limit some of our rights. Not paranoid, just careful.

I have learned a lot from you guys and hope to learn more.


NAVYBLUE

First welcome and thank you for your thoughts.

I don't remember saying I took a 3 hour class in AZ? I did say Utah has an 8 hour class and I could get my AZ CCW through the mail with my prior training and it would be recognized in NV but the one from UT that requires a class would not.

I do agree it is about Power and the LE in Nevada don't want to give it up. They can't keep the power themselves they need politics to keep the power; this is why I said it comes down to politics and money. I do agree power is part of both politics and money, as the saying goes the one with the money and power makes the rules.

I really hope that NV and the Nation change to allow the average citizen to defend themselves. If not LE and those that deny that right should be held accountable.
 

wrightme

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
First welcome and thank you for your thoughts.

I don't remember saying I took a 3 hour class in AZ? I did say Utah has an 8 hour class and I could get my AZ CCW through the mail with my prior training and it would be recognized in NV but the one from UT that requires a class would not.

I do agree it is about Power and the LE in Nevada don't want to give it up. They can't keep the power themselves they need politics to keep the power; this is why I said it comes down to politics and money. I do agree power is part of both politics and money, as the saying goes the one with the money and power makes the rules.

I really hope that NV and the Nation change to allow the average citizen to defend themselves. If not LE and those that deny that right should be held accountable.

NV allows the average citizen to defend themselves. A CCW permit is not required.

Looks like the "3 hr class" was from the OP:
My wife and I were preparing to take the 8 hr CCW class in Reno when we took a Winter break in the motorhome in Quartzite, AZ (RV winter meca). While there I encountered a business advertising a 3 hour (Non-shooting) CCW Permits that are good in 38 states.
 
Last edited:

DocWalker

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,922
Location
Mountain Home, Idaho, USA
He shoulda OC'ed. He was CC, and that is quite far from the subject of discussion.

I guess your the person that won't agree with anything I think and will find fault with my options so just don't respond to me please.

I was taking your options and really thinking about them, but it has been my experience that Nevada isn't the most friendly CC/OC state there is. I spend a lot of time in Nevada and don't feel as welcome to CC/OC as I do in other states. That being said Nevada is light year better than California. I have yet to see someone OCing in Nevada. I routinly see other OCers here in Idaho and have met a few in Utah and Washington.

I also have CCW cards for Utah, Idaho, and Oregon and the only states out west I can't CC out west is California and Nevada. I can Carry in Idaho, Utah, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, New Mexico, Montana, Wyoming, and Colorodo.

This is why I don't feel Nevada is as friendly to CC as it could be. I love Nevada and spend about 6-8 weeks there every year, I just don't feel it is the BEST CC/OC state out there.
 

MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
...This is why I don't feel Nevada is as friendly to CC as it could be. I love Nevada and spend about 6-8 weeks there every year, I just don't feel it is the BEST CC/OC state out there.

We can agree here.

That said, NV's CCW is extremely easy to get, it's just more expensive than most.
 

DocWalker

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,922
Location
Mountain Home, Idaho, USA
We can agree here.

That said, NV's CCW is extremely easy to get, it's just more expensive than most.

You also have to take a class IN the county you apply for your CCW. I would have to arrange a CCW class in Clark Co. if I apply for it in Clark Co. This is also a hassle for some as you can't just mail it in so to speak.
 

wrightme

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
I guess your the person that won't agree with anything I think and will find fault with my options so just don't respond to me please.
No, but I AM a person who is willing to respond to items which I do disagree with. If you post something I agree with, I will either respond in agreement, or simply note it and move on.

It isn't about WHO posts, it is about WHAT is posted.

DocWalker said:
I was taking your options and really thinking about them, but it has been my experience that Nevada isn't the most friendly CC/OC state there is. I spend a lot of time in Nevada and don't feel as welcome to CC/OC as I do in other states. That being said Nevada is light year better than California. I have yet to see someone OCing in Nevada. I routinly see other OCers here in Idaho and have met a few in Utah and Washington.
Whether you see OCer's or not is likely to do with where you are, and I would not correlate that to "OC-friendly or not." LV used to be less OC-friendly, but several forum members have really made a difference in how it is down there. Up north, really a non-issue for the most part.
 

wrightme

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
You also have to take a class IN the county you apply for your CCW. I would have to arrange a CCW class in Clark Co. if I apply for it in Clark Co. This is also a hassle for some as you can't just mail it in so to speak.

No, you do NOT need to take a class IN the county you apply in.

"I am a Nevada resident. May I attend CCW training in a county other than my home county?
Yes. Sheriffs are to honor other sheriff's CCW Instructor certifications. NRS 202.3657 states a sheriff shall issue a permit to any person who is qualified and who submits an application and who demonstrates competence by presenting a certificate to the sheriff which shows that he successfully completed a course in firearm safety approved by a sheriff in this State."
http://www.stillwaterfirearms.org/Pages/CCW_FAQ.php

http://leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-202.html#NRS202Sec3657

NRS 202.3657 Application for permit; eligibility; denial or revocation of permit.

1. Any person who is a resident of this State may apply to the sheriff of the county in which he or she resides for a permit on a form prescribed by regulation of the Department. Any person who is not a resident of this State may apply to the sheriff of any county in this State for a permit on a form prescribed by regulation of the Department. Application forms for permits must be furnished by the sheriff of each county upon request.

2. A person applying for a permit may submit one application and obtain one permit to carry all revolvers and semiautomatic firearms owned by the person. The person must not be required to list and identify on the application each revolver or semiautomatic firearm owned by the person. A permit must list each category of firearm to which the permit pertains and is valid for any revolver or semiautomatic firearm which is owned or thereafter obtained by the person to whom the permit is issued.

3. Except as otherwise provided in this section, the sheriff shall issue a permit for revolvers, semiautomatic firearms or both, as applicable, to any person who is qualified to possess the firearms to which the application pertains under state and federal law, who submits an application in accordance with the provisions of this section and who:

(a) Is 21 years of age or older;

(b) Is not prohibited from possessing a firearm pursuant to NRS 202.360; and

(c) Demonstrates competence with revolvers, semiautomatic firearms or both, as applicable, by presenting a certificate or other documentation to the sheriff which shows that the applicant:

(1) Successfully completed a course in firearm safety approved by a sheriff in this State; or

(2) Successfully completed a course in firearm safety offered by a federal, state or local law enforcement agency, community college, university or national organization that certifies instructors in firearm safety.

Ê Such a course must include instruction in the use of revolvers, semiautomatic firearms or both, as applicable, and in the laws of this State relating to the use of a firearm. A sheriff may not approve a course in firearm safety pursuant to subparagraph (1) unless the sheriff determines that the course meets any standards that are established by the Nevada Sheriffs’ and Chiefs’ Association or, if the Nevada Sheriffs’ and Chiefs’ Association ceases to exist, its legal successor.
 
Last edited:

DocWalker

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,922
Location
Mountain Home, Idaho, USA
No, you do NOT need to take a class IN the county you apply in.

"I am a Nevada resident. May I attend CCW training in a county other than my home county?
Yes. Sheriffs are to honor other sheriff's CCW Instructor certifications. NRS 202.3657 states a sheriff shall issue a permit to any person who is qualified and who submits an application and who demonstrates competence by presenting a certificate to the sheriff which shows that he successfully completed a course in firearm safety approved by a sheriff in this State."
http://www.stillwaterfirearms.org/Pages/CCW_FAQ.php

http://leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-202.html#NRS202Sec3657

I stand corrected, thank you. My problem is I stopped in at the Clark Co. Sheriffs office last time I was in Las Vegas and asked about getting my CCW, the officer told me I could apply in any Nevada County but I needed to take a class in the county I applied for the CCW.

Lesson learned: never trust that what a Sheriff Deputy tells you as the truth.

Thank you, this might make it easier for me to get my NV CCW then only California will be off the list.
 

NAVYBLUE

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
109
Location
Peoples Republic of North Las Vegas
First welcome and thank you for your thoughts.

I don't remember saying I took a 3 hour class in AZ? I did say Utah has an 8 hour class and I could get my AZ CCW through the mail with my prior training and it would be recognized in NV but the one from UT that requires a class would not.

I do agree it is about Power and the LE in Nevada don't want to give it up. They can't keep the power themselves they need politics to keep the power; this is why I said it comes down to politics and money. I do agree power is part of both politics and money, as the saying goes the one with the money and power makes the rules.

I really hope that NV and the Nation change to allow the average citizen to defend themselves. If not LE and those that deny that right should be held accountable.

Doc, my bad on the (3) hour class. I got you confused with the OP. I believe the OP needs to report the guy doing the class at Quartsite to the county sheriff. Although I am 100% AGAINST any course requirements to get a CCW permit or to require a permit for CCW or Ocing in what used to be FREE America, I do like to see the laws that are in effect enforced. As I said in my post, I am pretty sure my AZ instructor mentioned the (8) hour minimum for the course.

That being said Doc I do think VOLUNTARY advanced training is a good thing. Like golf lessons. You THINK you are doing the right thing, but an outsider whose skill level is advanced can see the things you don't know you are doing not quite as proficient as you could.

Welcome back at you to the site. I have lurked about (6) months at this and the OTHER site and I find the folks on here to be more receptive to new ideas and more welcoming and willing to help even if they don't personally agree with your ideas or methods.

NAVYBLUE
 

NAVYBLUE

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2011
Messages
109
Location
Peoples Republic of North Las Vegas
I guess your the person that won't agree with anything I think and will find fault with my options so just don't respond to me please.

I was taking your options and really thinking about them, but it has been my experience that Nevada isn't the most friendly CC/OC state there is. I spend a lot of time in Nevada and don't feel as welcome to CC/OC as I do in other states. That being said Nevada is light year better than California. I have yet to see someone OCing in Nevada. I routinly see other OCers here in Idaho and have met a few in Utah and Washington.

I also have CCW cards for Utah, Idaho, and Oregon and the only states out west I can't CC out west is California and Nevada. I can Carry in Idaho, Utah, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, New Mexico, Montana, Wyoming, and Colorodo.

This is why I don't feel Nevada is as friendly to CC as it could be. I love Nevada and spend about 6-8 weeks there every year, I just don't feel it is the BEST CC/OC state out there.

Doc,

I tend to agree with most of your post. IMO, I see the same trends in Las Vegas as we've seen in Sun Valley, Idaho and Jackson Hole, WY. It's hard to describe. It's like the blob (The movie). This big, slimey thing started out small and as it ate everything around it, it got bigger and more powerful. It's called CALIFORNIA transplants. As more move to Las Vegas after selling their $750,000 1500 sq ft house built in 1960 and move in to the 55+ (like me) communities things change. That unfortunately is swinging Nevada from a libertarian/conservative/moderate Democrat state towards a more liberal (Clark county) state. And since Clark county has 70% of the state population, their moving in can change things in the future. I see getting constitutional carry in Nevada as a big uphill battle.

Californians moving here are the ones who probably freak out the most when they see people OCing. I experienced the same thing in Pennsylvania before retiring here is 5/11. The people from New Jersey who came to the Poconos (PA resort county on western N.J. border) absolutely freaked out when they saw people OCing. The concept of the 2nd amendment and freedom completely alluded them.

You live in one of the (5) most conservative states in America. While traveling from LA to Pennsylvania by train for Christmas my wife and I meet and became friendly with a lady from Montpelier area who moved there about (2) years ago after her husband transferred from CA to ID to work for a power company. A Idaho lady saw her Obama T-Shirt and said F.U. Bitch, go back to California.

Another thing and this is just a feeling and I can't prove it, but I get the impression that Las Vegas Metro P.D. has more police serving here that are from other states and that there may not be a lot of "native" Nevadans on the police force and these out of staters bring there Northeast/Midwest/Left coast law enforcement ideas/values with them

So as you can see we are a little behind you guys as far as conservatives but please came on down. Lots of fine folks here. I know I am trying to get as many of my conservative friends/family to move/retire here.

NAVYBLUE
 

Marine 58

New member
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
8
Location
Sparks
Doc, my bad on the (3) hour class. I got you confused with the OP. I believe the OP needs to report the guy doing the class at Quartsite to the county sheriff. Although I am 100% AGAINST any course requirements to get a CCW permit or to require a permit for CCW or Ocing in what used to be FREE America, I do like to see the laws that are in effect enforced. As I said in my post, I am pretty sure my AZ instructor mentioned the (8) hour minimum for the course.
NAVYBLUE

I was the OP of this thread and I am not willing to throw the AZ CCW Instructor under the bus just yet. From what I have read NV only opted in to AZ in Aug 2011 and I am now certain that the instructor was NOT up to speed on NV law. Maybe he should have paid more attention to the specifics before telling me (and others) that AZ CCW Permits were legal in NV for NV residents. However, I am responsible to know the laws for my state and I should have tried harder to make myself acquainted with all the ins and outs.

That said.. when I notified him of my findings he told me he was unaware that NV had stronger laws for NV residents. He told me he would let any other NV CCW students know that he was going to let them know and investigate for himself. He will be in Quartzite until Mar 15 and asked me to call him back then for followup. He also said he had 15 people from LV coming down to Lake Havasu in April and he would notify them. So it does not appear to me that his mistake was intentional. He did not offer me my money back yet. But he did tell me the "Gun Shop" in LV offered CCW Classes for free. After reading some of the posts on this Forum I do not think I would take advantage of that class even if it was NOT an 8 hr drive from Reno to LV. He also told me he heard CO had recently enacted a similar law.
I will wait until I am back in contact with the instructor before I condemn him
 
Top