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Thread: RIP: John Williams. Lest we forget

  1. #1
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    RIP: John Williams. Lest we forget

    His totem pole was raised today at the Seattle Center.

    May this totem pole be a gift that keeps giving to the City of Seattle, and its Police Department.



    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/T...140501113.html

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    Seriously???

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 223to45 View Post
    Seriously???
    Yes seriously. There has been great discussion about Williams on this board and his death. There is great concern that an openly carried firearm would receive the same treatment as Williams. In addition the 4th amendment violation in this case is egregious.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 223to45 View Post
    Seriously???
    What exactly are you saying?

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 223to45 View Post
    Seriously???

    John Williams belonged to an Amerindian tribe. Amerindian tribes have their own ways of remembering their dead.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 02-27-2012 at 05:43 PM.

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    Regular Member CrossBow33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 223to45 View Post
    Seriously???
    Yes, seriously! Been living in a cave?

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    Amerindian tribe


    A what?

    Don't perpetuate their false victimhood by giving them cute names.

  8. #8
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    I just hope that 5, 10, or more years from now that people don't forget the name John T. Williams and let him only be remembered as just "the Indian Woodcarver that was killed by a Seattle Cop". It would be even more tragic if the only name remembered was that of the officer that killed him.

    The Totem will help but it's up to the people to see this doesn't happen.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Why would we erect a memorial on public property to a known inebriate? We erect public memorials to heroes or people to be looked up to and emulated, not to a self-destructive person like Williams, who's conduct would have ended in his early demise anyway, Birk's involvement notwithstanding.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Why would we erect a memorial on public property to a known inebriate? We erect public memorials to heroes or people to be looked up to and emulated, not to a self-destructive person like Williams, who's conduct would have ended in his early demise anyway, Birk's involvement notwithstanding.
    Although I agree with some of your sentiment. The fact of the matter is that he was causing no one any harm and was murdered by a cop. I like the statue for the reason it is a constant reminder of how "Law Enforcement" feels they are above the law and not held to a higher constitutional standard they should be.

    He also was a human being who contributed works of art to society he was loved by his family and many. We can always hope the "prodigal sons" come to their senses.

    But by your comments people should be judged less severely for murdering elderly since they are closer to their demise?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by 223to45 View Post
    Seriously???
    Care to elaborate a bit?
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Birk's involvement notwithstanding.
    Oh yeah, his murder at the hands of an on duty LEO (who got off scott free) notwithstanding.

    Because the poor, the sick, the mentally ill all deserve less rights under the law then everyone else. Because those 'elements' of society deserve to be treated unequal under the law.

    Frak that BS.
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 02-27-2012 at 10:23 PM.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    But by your comments people should be judged less severely

    I'm going to fix that quote:

    "By HIS comments HE should be judged severely." Dean showed his stripes.
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 02-27-2012 at 10:24 PM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    A what?

    Don't perpetuate their false victimhood by giving them cute names.[/COLOR]
    That sounds like the kind of comment a bigoted racist might utter, imho.

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    Had he shot a deaf blue-haired old lady swinging a knitting needle, having just come from Nordstom, on her way to her Mercedes, I doubt the consequences for Birk would have been any different.

    Are you saying that the numerous inquiries into the shooting all considered Williams' station in society when reaching a conclusion?

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Had he shot a deaf blue-haired old lady swinging a knitting needle, having just come from Nordstom, on her way to her Mercedes, I doubt the consequences for Birk would have been any different.

    Are you saying that the numerous inquiries into the shooting all considered Williams' station in society when reaching a conclusion?
    I'm saying Williams was murdered by a police officer who got away scott free, in my opinion.

    I'm saying you sound racist and bigoted, in my opinion.

    In my opinion, I'm probably right on both counts.

    Everything else, "notwithstanding" of course.

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    That sounds like the kind of comment a bigoted racist might utter, imho.


    Perpetuating their false victimhood and giving them cute names is certainly no service to them. It only serves to cement their station in society - it assures them that there is no life than what they know at the hands of their benevolent masters, the government. It will guarantee them many more generations of poverty, alcoholism and drug abuse, and living in mobile homes with the tongues still attached, trash strewn about their yards.

    It is sad what we are doing in the name of helping them.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Had he shot a deaf blue-haired old lady swinging a knitting needle, having just come from Nordstom, on her way to her Mercedes, I doubt the consequences for Birk would have been any different.

    Are you saying that the numerous inquiries into the shooting all considered Williams' station in society when reaching a conclusion?
    Know what it takes for a cop to get arrested and/or fired?

    http://themountainnewswa.net/2012/02...lice-officers/

    Short of screwing over another cop, they are above the law.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Perpetuating their false victimhood and giving them cute names is certainly no service to them. It only serves to cement their station in society - it assures them that there is no life than what they know at the hands of their benevolent masters, the government. It will guarantee them many more generations of poverty, alcoholism and drug abuse, and living in mobile homes with the tongues still attached, trash strewn about their yards.

    It is sad what we are doing in the name of helping them.
    Yeah, that sounds like a bigot and a racist talking, in my humble opinion

    What would you rather call American Indians? Some 'cute' name from the 1860s or 1920s?
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 02-27-2012 at 10:39 PM.

  20. #20
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    Back to the memorial:

    Why was Williams a hero? Why was he someone to be looked up to and emulated, in a public sense? Why does his memory deserve his memorial?

  21. #21
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    Yeah, that sounds like a bigot and a racist talking
    Do you even know what a racist is?

    I want Indians to have the same opportunity for success as all races. Perpetuating the victimhood cycle does nothing to accomplish that.
    Last edited by deanf; 02-27-2012 at 10:45 PM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Just the sober Indians you mean, right?


    Oh, and amerindian isn't a 'cutsey name', it's only been in use since the late 1800's. It distinguishes the American Aborigine from the Australian who are usually addressed only as 'aborigines' and from those who are truly Indians that live on a south Asian sub-continent. If some benighted Genoan hadn't saddled them with that misidentification we'd probably all be better off, but it's hard to change history.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 02-27-2012 at 11:01 PM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Why does his memory deserve his memorial?
    Hey I thought of a new nickname of you: "Dense Dean."

    He was murdered by LEO. The LEO got off scott free. Seattle needs, no it deserves, a constant reminder of that abuse of power and authority. If for no other reason, that's enough justification for the existence of the Totem Pole.

    In other words, a human life is inherently valuable. Every human in America has basic rights. The LEO took a life while violating that American Indian's Rights. Yes, erect a *** **** memorial, and do it for every person murdered or maimed by LEO in Seattle (or anywhere)

    Personally, I want to see a large public piece of artwork, or hell even just a big billboard on I-5 at both ends of the city, with this person's image on it -- and the warning "WATCH OUT FOR SEATTLE POLICE OFFICERS -- THEY MIGHT RANDOMLY MAIM OR KILL YOU"



    And every time the SPD creates another VICTIM then there should be another sign, totem pole, or whatever it takes to shove the brutal truth into the face of Seattleites -- until officers start serving time for their lawless behavior.
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 02-27-2012 at 11:04 PM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Do you even know what a racist is?

    I want Indians to have the same opportunity for success as all races. Perpetuating the victimhood cycle does nothing to accomplish that.
    Do I know what racist is? Yes, and in my opinion you appear to be one.

    And I think a reasonable person could say that: It seem to have ZERO respect for the Constitution, and equality under the law. You also have ZERO desire to hold LEO responsible for their illegal and immoral actions.

    It's funny that you can't even talk about this issue without admitting that American Indians ARE victims (on some level) and that victimhood is a cycle -- implying that it is hard to break.

    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Perpetuating the victimhood cycle does nothing to accomplish that.
    Thanks for the unintended admission. Language is precise, and that's what you wrote.

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Been patiently following this thread and see that there are some strong feelings about this local issue, but what exactly does this have to do with OC or RKBA?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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