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Thread: When does Open Carry fail, not be fast enough?

  1. #1
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    When does Open Carry fail, not be fast enough?

    Everyone talks about (and some disagree) that OC is a faster response time to a signal event (i.e. a sudden ambush).

    The thing about ALL martial arts is that to a degree they ALSO fail when needed most and I'll explain below.

    MAN, guys, I'm getting chills thinking about this epiphany...

    When you are ambushed, even if armed, trained and ready and in orange alert, you can be defeated by a skilled predator. For example you're open carrying and your doorbell rings and it's a guy in a Fed Ex outfit, you answer the door and when you do (they practice this) a guy slams you in the forehead with a baseball bat (like the guy in the news).

    I'm citing an EXTREME event which will probably never happen just to illustrate my point. An ambush by a skilled practiced predator is almost an unsolvable problem. (there are some things you can do and I'll mention those also).

    Even the knife guys in martial arts, Escrima, Silat, you know almost crazy types (like the group who was in the movie 'The Hunted') admit that they are not going to win in most ambushes. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayoc_Kali)

    So, what I'm thinking is that the best way to be almost 'bullet proof', (pun intended) is to do a little bit more.

    To digress for a moment...I'll talk about EXTREME OPTIONS - I'm not suggesting everyone wear a coat of armor, I'm just touching on SOME options out there. When I carried a fighting knife back in the day I did the cut gloves and one leather arm brace and I did a tourniquet style bicep wrap (like Thai Boxers wear). But that was back in my fighting days.

    In a knife fight, which is kind of a fantasy event in the US (but not in places like Brazil), there are ways to harden yourself. You adopt some tactics that MC groups use:
    1. Wear arm braces of thick leather. This is a way to keep from getting a wrist cut. The leather arm braces are stylish and easy to get used to.
    2. Get some 'Kevlar Cut Gloves' and wear them inside a slightly larger very light leather glove. These gloves I used in the restaurant business and they don't prevent a deep committed assisted cut, but will give you a bit of resistance
    3. Sew a leather lining inside the collar of your jacket - a Nehru type collar you can zip up quickly - and if you are going into a somewhat rough part of town, you just zip up and put your gloves on. Again, some of the stuff you wear has to be hardened so you get a moment's resistance and allow you to deploy your weapon or evade.
    4. Look into the new bullet proof type of vest that looks like a large laptop case but can be strapped over your body - it's only about 13x15", but it is cut-resistant.
    5. Wear one of the newer 'bullet resistant' trench coats, it's an executive style and costs a bit, but it's not more than the price of two guns. Reinforce it.
    6. Work with a partner. IOW, in the door ambush above, you would (in a dangerous area) have your partner stand off to the side and you'd open the door, but your partner, being armed in the house would be off to the side ready to back you up.
    7. Have a baseball cap with some metal lining - a mesh would work with a bit of a forehead plate (like Steed's bowler hat in the Avengers, but baseball cap style). A bat to the forehead would be a lot less injurious and we have people who wear a baseball cap almost 18/7.
    8. Look into sap gloves. They're illegal in some places, but hey, I'm talking an exhaustive list of extreme options. Pick and choose, but I'm trying to brainstorm here
    9. Look into skateboarder gear (high impact, but light weight elbow and knee pads and scrape gloves) We used a type of skateboarder's vest when we trained knives live back in the day. It's lightweight and resists cuts.
    10. Look into high impact cycling sunglasses. These things are pretty tough and will save your eyes and face in a fall on pavement - they're wrap style to keep wind and objects out. Good as regular Ray-bans, but the 'wrap' style makes all the difference.

    OK, back to guns.
    1. Work with a partner. Have the partner use a BUG pocket carry style so they always have their finger in safe mode but the gun is in their grip inside their jacket pocket. You OC and have your BUG in an ankle carry (why, your first defense position might be on your back on the ground, b/c predators like to tackle people they want to take down but that look 'hardened' and not soft targets).
    2. The partner in the shotgun seat would always have their BUG in an unholstered pocket carry so they are almost able to shove their hand in the pocket, get a grip and shoot. This would be primarily for travel in car-jacking areas.
    3. Look into some 3M glass covering for your back window in the car (you're very vulnerable in a car. You're seated and seatbelted in. If the LEO in the VT case had hardened windows, the guy who shot him while he sat in the car would not be able to kill him in most cases. The 3M covering is very good - not proof, but resistant - might deflect the bullet or hammer a carjacker might use.
    4. Study how the most successful and robust car-jackings occur - in fact study ambushes that are successful. Think how YOU a handgun enthusiast would do a home invasion.
    5. Run through drills, but not on the whole combat pistol craft drill, focus on those last few seconds where the BG gets you in a kill box

    (more in part 2)
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    It this day and age one can never be to wary of Predators. Either the ones from the movies or the drone types. Funny enough, packing my extremity with cool mud really does foil both. I am virtually invisible AND I my complexion has never been more pleasant. Another cool thing I learned was Gunkata. But I can't talk about that.
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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    MAN, guys, I'm getting chills thinking about this epiphany...

    When you are ambushed, even if armed, trained and ready and in orange alert, you can be defeated by a skilled predator.
    6. Work with a partner. IOW, in the door ambush above, you would (in a dangerous area) have your partner stand off to the side and you'd open the door, but your


    Does your plastic armor protect against lasers or explosions? I thought the predators only attack things that had a fighting chance. Wouldn't it be best to lay your weapons down?
    Last edited by 09jisaac; 02-27-2012 at 11:37 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    I can tell a lot of thought went into the OP and I kinda hate to be critical. I guess I would just say that while we could do more to be better protected, most of us I think try to find a balance between being prepared for self-defense and living a normal life. But thinking of worst case scenarios and more extreme protections can cause us to be more aware and to at least re-evaluate our current state of readiness to deal with a bad situation.

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    I think a lot of the RBSD guys work some good stuff but they think too narrowly, in some cases and not narrowly enough in others.

    Example:
    Where are you most vulnerable? When the BG is suddenly right up next to you. There's no 'step off the X', there's only work the "scramble" as we call it in Brazilian JJ. You start slowly and deliberately and work through several common 'grabs', standing, sitting, on your back, on top of the BG, pinned up against the wall, being pinned up against the wall, grabbed from the side, BG in 'pocket carry' gun against your ribs, back, or neck.

    Train all those using a rubber gun replica (or big hard rubber knife), slowly and step through it and then work up a flow.

    ====

    I am NOT SAYING, 'be the Mall Ninja'. I'm listing a comprehensive list of things that are POSSIBLE, used by you, or used against you.

    Exhaustive list, NOT a suggestion for EDC.

    YES, YES, YES, balance, adapt to your surroundings and threat level.
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    I'll call a cop to come and save me....
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    I really like the idea of the cut gloves inside regular gloves for winter time...
    When you put the gun in the holster, put the ego in the gun safe.

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    If the fed ex guy has a bat and you are surprised when he attacks you with it... well you have failed. Any time there is a knock on my door I treat the entire situation as one where the person is looking for a chance to attack me.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I'll call a cop to come and save me....
    That's what the guys breaking in are counting on. Of course they could be the guys breaking in your front door......
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Dr Phil's Avatar
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    So, you're suggesting we all wear arm braces and skateboarding pads, and have an armed assistant with us 24/7 to ride shotgun and help answer the door for Fed-ex?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Phil View Post
    So, you're suggesting we all wear arm braces and skateboarding pads, and have an armed assistant with us 24/7 to ride shotgun and help answer the door for Fed-ex?


    right? lol.

    and this: "In a knife fight, which is kind of a fantasy event in the US (but not in places like Brazil), "
    ummm.. wrong. dead wrong. During my E/R time, we averaged 6+ GSVs per any given night (gun shot victims). It was not at all uncommon to see 2 to 3 times that many folks coming in with stab/slash wounds (a lot of those "defensive wounds" to the forearms, backs of hands) as a result of knife fights on the streets.
    Granted, we didnt exactly have ninjas dueling in the streets, but in a lot of storefront "clubs" knife fights were far more common than gunplay.

    And metal-lined hats? You are kidding, me, right? Ever heard of spalling? Unless you are talking about going the route of full-on MilSpec Kevlar helmets and the like, such an idea is just plain nuts. If shot in the head, by some chance, during an extreme ambush, that little bit of metal moves out ahead of the round- and ends up probably doing more damage than the round itself would, on it's own.


    Years back, I read (out of boredom) the book from which the points you list originated. I feel it important to remind you that the book was mostly written in jest, with more than just a touch of sarcasm. The 1st clue, should have been that the book-when carried in any stores,anymore- is usually found in the HUMOR section...

    http://www.google.com/url?q=http://w...dMzT8KZFGeqL8Q
    Last edited by j4l; 03-03-2012 at 12:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Phil View Post
    So, you're suggesting we all wear arm braces and skateboarding pads, and have an armed assistant with us 24/7 to ride shotgun and help answer the door for Fed-ex?

    What you don't think that would make for a good fashion statement?
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Regular Member Ironbar's Avatar
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    I just absolutely LOVE "what if" threads. The entertainment garnered from watching the gears grind in someone's head as they try to ponder every conceivable contingency in a self-defense situation is priceless!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironbar View Post
    I just absolutely LOVE "what if" threads. The entertainment garnered from watching the gears grind in someone's head as they try to ponder every conceivable contingency in a self-defense situation is priceless!
    They should be entertaining. Asking "what if" is the entire premise of sci-fi/speculative fiction. Simple logic easily illuminates this fact.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    This all sounds familiar....
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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironbar View Post
    I just absolutely LOVE "what if" threads. The entertainment garnered from watching the gears grind in someone's head as they try to ponder every conceivable contingency in a self-defense situation is priceless!
    Not really. Guys like Clint Smith and all the RBSD guys make a living off of it. We all know that real SD is chaotic and unpredictable and you may be all geared up with tanks and mortars and suddenly find out it's a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironbar View Post
    I just absolutely LOVE "what if" threads. The entertainment garnered from watching the gears grind in someone's head as they try to ponder every conceivable contingency in a self-defense situation is priceless!
    Careful. They take their fantasy REALLY seriously around here.
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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    I just absolutely LOVE "what if" threads. The entertainment garnered from watching the gears grind in someone's head as they try to ponder every conceivable contingency in a self-defense situation is priceless!
    1+


    For example you're open carrying and your doorbell rings and it's a guy in a Fed Ex outfit, you answer the door and when you do (they practice this) a guy slams you in the forehead with a baseball bat (like the guy in the news).
    Simple:
    Door bell rings
    1) first look outside from a window that offers a clear view of the entrance way
    2) ask the guy to leave the package at the door
    3) if you need to sign ask the guy to leave the clipboard etc.. and step away from the entrance
    4) have you're large dog(s) with you when you open the door.


    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    Not really. Guys like Clint Smith and all the RBSD guys make a living off of it. We all know that real SD is chaotic and unpredictable and you may be all geared up with tanks and mortars and suddenly find out it's a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
    So, do you wear all the gear you suggest?

    How many firearms do you carry?
    How many flashlights do you carry?
    How many spare mags/speedloaders do you carry?
    Do you have a long gun handy at all times?
    How many cell phone's /batteries for phone and other electrionic devices do you carry?
    Do you always have someone riding shotgun?
    Do you have CCTV and audio devices at points of entry to your home?
    How many recording devices do you carry on your person?
    Do you wear body armor out and at home?
    Do you wear gas mask etc.. to protect from chemical spray attacks?
    Do you wear flame retardant clothes?
    Do you have a personal fire extinguisher hand at all times?
    Do you carry a lighter?
    Do you carry a taser/stun gun?
    Do you carry pepper spary/mace?
    Do you carry a baton or other impact device?
    Do you wear glasses/contacts? If so, how many pair do you carry with you?

    You still haven't shown how Open carry fails!!!!
    The premise is flawed, as anyone can be ambushed at sometime or another and anyone can be defeated given the correct chain of events.

    I have a few what if's for you...

    If your mother had a mustache would she be your dad?
    If a cat gave birth in an oven would those creatures be muffins or kittens?


    While I subsribe to have a plan or plan to fail you....me thinks you're over thinking(?) things...
    Last edited by Marco; 03-07-2012 at 02:03 PM.
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    Regular Member Ironbar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    Not really. Guys like Clint Smith and all the RBSD guys make a living off of it. We all know that real SD is chaotic and unpredictable and you may be all geared up with tanks and mortars and suddenly find out it's a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
    This coming from a guy with "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" as his avatar.

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