Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 26

Thread: OC on the Appalachian Trail

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    7

    OC on the Appalachian Trail

    Will someone shed some light on the legality of open carrying while going to, hiking on or coming from the Appalachian Trail in Virginia? Specifically around McAfe's Knob. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,620
    The Appalachian Trail in VA is entirely with the Shenandoah National Park which is NPS land.

    The laws of each state apply within their borders to all NPS, national parks, so OC or CC w/CHP. You can thank VCDL for that.

    Note not allowed to carry in any facility/building that regularly houses NPS employees - must be signage to that effect.

    http://www.nps.gov/shen/index.htm

    http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm


    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  3. #3
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The Appalachian Trail in VA is entirely with the Shenandoah National Park which is NPS land.

    The laws of each state apply within their borders to all NPS, national parks, so OC or CC w/CHP. You can thank VCDL for that.

    Note not allowed to carry in any facility/building that regularly houses NPS employees - must be signage to that effect.

    http://www.nps.gov/shen/index.htm

    http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm

    This is a good time to mention the good VCDL has done. That change was fought to the end and VCDL continued to push and find a way. The change in the law was carried on a credit card reform bill if I remember right.

  4. #4
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,620
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    This is a good time to mention the good VCDL has done. That change was fought to the end and VCDL continued to push and find a way. The change in the law was carried on a credit card reform bill if I remember right.
    It was the Credit Cardholders’ Bill of Rights Act which was passed in 2009 and went into effect 2010.

    VCDL has pushed for parity on all public lands throughout Virginia. As National Park land comprised such a large part of our public lands but did not allow carry, it became a focal point. Working closely with Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Oklahoma) and others in Congress we eventually prevailed. Many other RKBA groups have tried to claim credit for bringing this to fruition, but VCDL was there 1st and pushed the hardest. Viva la VCDL!
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Hampton, Va, ,
    Posts
    623
    NRA jumped on at the eleventh hour attempting to steel the credit.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    205

    Additional problem

    The Trail is NPS land; but if you look at the map, in a lot of places, it is surrounded by National Forest Land, which in VA requires a CHP to carry and only allows CC unless hunting (4VAC15-40-60). You have to be careful since only a few feet from the trail you'd be in violation, and this means that in many places you have to access the trail while concealing. If you don't have a CHP, then you have to get onto the trail in an area outside the National Forest lands....

  7. #7
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by johnfenter View Post
    The Trail is NPS land; but if you look at the map, in a lot of places, it is surrounded by National Forest Land, which in VA requires a CHP to carry and only allows CC unless hunting (4VAC15-40-60). You have to be careful since only a few feet from the trail you'd be in violation, and this means that in many places you have to access the trail while concealing. If you don't have a CHP, then you have to get onto the trail in an area outside the National Forest lands....
    For those of us that grew up in the NF, I'd say don't worry about it....but sine that's a board violation, take a pistol rug and when you enter the NF, unload and put it in the rug. When you leave, load and carry. You're legal then.

    It's inconvenient but keeps you in good standing.
    Last edited by peter nap; 02-28-2012 at 08:46 AM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Lynchburg
    Posts
    167
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    For those of us that grew up in the NF, I'd say don't worry about it....but sine that's a board violation, take a pistol rug and when you enter the NF, unload and put it in the rug. When you leave, load and carry. You're legal then.

    It's inconvenient but keeps you in good standing.
    So we CAN O.C. on the AT? Just not the woodland area? Is this correct. I plan on backpacking alot this year so this info is very useful for me

  9. #9
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by love4guns View Post
    So we CAN O.C. on the AT? Just not the woodland area? Is this correct. I plan on backpacking alot this year so this info is very useful for me
    Yes, you can OC Legally on the AT that is in the Parks system. I don't know if any part is actually on AF land and you can't legally OC there except during hunting season.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Granite State of Mind
    Posts
    4,510
    Quote Originally Posted by love4guns View Post
    So we CAN O.C. on the AT? Just not the woodland area? Is this correct. I plan on backpacking alot this year so this info is very useful for me
    You can legally carry in whatever manner would be legal for the state you're in. That means you're screwed in Maryland and New York, but you can find a way to carry in all the other states.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Burke/Blacksburg, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    998
    Just a quick added question here, but can anyone offer an opinion (or better yet fact) regarding the scenic overlook points/peaks along the Appalachian Trail? Are those areas generally considered part of the App Trail or are they part of the surrounding NF land? I'm hiking Big Rocky Row near Glasgow with some friends tomorrow, and I want to make sure I stay legal. http://www.hikingupward.com/GWNF/BigRockyRow/ I obviously would prefer to OC when I can, but I'll CC if and when I must.

  12. #12
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,620
    Quote Originally Posted by VApatriot View Post
    Just a quick added question here, but can anyone offer an opinion (or better yet fact) regarding the scenic overlook points/peaks along the Appalachian Trail? Are those areas generally considered part of the App Trail or are they part of the surrounding NF land? I'm hiking Big Rocky Row near Glasgow with some friends tomorrow, and I want to make sure I stay legal. http://www.hikingupward.com/GWNF/BigRockyRow/ I obviously would prefer to OC when I can, but I'll CC if and when I must.
    Recommend a phone call to NPS or local senior ranger as your most practical solution. If you are referring to the scenic overlooks along the Blue Ridge Parkway in VA then those are part of NPS lands.

    Otherwise an extremely good GPS and topo map w/mets and bounds might be required.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Burke/Blacksburg, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    998
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Recommend a phone call to NPS or local senior ranger as your most practical solution. If you are referring to the scenic overlooks along the Blue Ridge Parkway in VA then those are part of NPS lands.

    Otherwise an extremely good GPS and topo map w/mets and bounds might be required.
    Thanks for the advice, GS.

    Only recently has it clearly come to my attention how convoluted may of the boundaries are for NP, NF, and WMA and how nuanced the different regulations are for each. Given that there are such large sections of Virginia that are encompassed by these lands and their regulation, it sure would be nice to have some consistency in all of them with the rest of the state's carry laws. It just isn't right that you should have to worry about crossing an unmarked line in the woods and going from perfectly legal to in violation.

  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,620
    Quote Originally Posted by VApatriot View Post
    Thanks for the advice, GS.

    Only recently has it clearly come to my attention how convoluted may of the boundaries are for NP, NF, and WMA and how nuanced the different regulations are for each. Given that there are such large sections of Virginia that are encompassed by these lands and their regulation, it sure would be nice to have some consistency in all of them with the rest of the state's carry laws. It just isn't right that you should have to worry about crossing an unmarked line in the woods and going from perfectly legal to in violation.
    It comes back to good people intent on obeying the laws (LAC) are punished when there was no intent to violate tsame.

    BGs/criminals will willfully ignore the law(s) - no law has ever stopped a crime. Hear preaching to the choir here.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  15. #15
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Okanogan Highland
    Posts
    2,332
    I have a question on this. You say you cannot OC in the NF in VA? but you can CC? To my western mind, this does not compute. That you may be required to have a concealed license, or a hunting license, I might understand, kind of sounds like game law stuff, but if you have a concealed permit, you are required to conceal in a NF in VA???? Who's rules? state?

    Sorry, that just does not compute in my mind...really?

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Burke/Blacksburg, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    998
    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    I have a question on this. You say you cannot OC in the NF in VA? but you can CC? To my western mind, this does not compute. That you may be required to have a concealed license, or a hunting license, I might understand, kind of sounds like game law stuff, but if you have a concealed permit, you are required to conceal in a NF in VA???? Who's rules? state?

    Sorry, that just does not compute in my mind...really?
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...g+4VAC15-40-60

    Look at section G. It specifies concealed carry with a CHP.

  17. #17
    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    on a rock in the james river
    Posts
    1,453
    As an outdoorsman, this convolution is still one of my pet peeves. There have been strides made, National Parks and State Parks, but we still have the whole National Forest, Wilderness Area, and Wildlife Management Area fiascos. You are right that a lot of it has to do with not wanting illegal hunting on certain lands, so your right to carry is restricted.

    Why I will be working for constitutional carry over the next year. Carrying is a RIGHT. If you commit a crime while carrying, your mistake. But don't criminalize the RIGHT because you are on game lands.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Burke/Blacksburg, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    998
    I ended up hiking Tinker Cliff today. The hike uses a trail that goes through privately owned land (no NF land) and then joins the AT. I decided to CC through the first trail and then switch to OC on the AT. On the return leg, I ended behind a gentleman who clearly had a holster poking out from under his jacket, so I asked him what he was carrying. We talked a bit about what we carried and some of the ranges in the area. All in all it was a great day with perfect weather and awesome views.

  19. #19
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Okanogan Highland
    Posts
    2,332
    The whole thing stinks of "guilty unless proven innocent" and every person with a handgun is a jack lighter and poacher.

    I know, we have the unlawful to posses a loaded long gun in a vehicle here to (yes, game regulations) but at least you can have your unlicensed OC pistol for SD anywhere in the wild (and even the city, parks, the state capitol buldings, the county commisioners office, restaurants that serve,,,only over 21 bars are restricted). NP, NF, DNR land, BLM anywhere and eveywhere (except the Indian res, then you have to ask for extra permission from the tribe if off road)

  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,620
    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    The whole thing stinks of "guilty unless proven innocent" and every person with a handgun is a jack lighter and poacher.

    I know, we have the unlawful to posses a loaded long gun in a vehicle here to (yes, game regulations) but at least you can have your unlicensed OC pistol for SD anywhere in the wild (and even the city, parks, the state capitol buldings, the county commisioners office, restaurants that serve,,,only over 21 bars are restricted). NP, NF, DNR land, BLM anywhere and eveywhere (except the Indian res, then you have to ask for extra permission from the tribe if off road)

    "No legal principle of criminal law and procedure has generated more interest and debate than the rule that one is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.1 This maxim has long epitomized the rivalry between the civil law and the common law, as reflected by the traditional dichotomy between the Latin presumption of guilt and the Anglo-American presumption of innocence."


    "V. CONCLUSION
    Developed in antiquity and formulated in its modern form at the end of the thirteenth century, the principle “innocent until proven guilty” has a dual dimension: a rule of proof casting on the prosecution the burden of proving guilt, it is also a shield that prevents the infliction of punishment prior to conviction. Both the civil law and the common law recognized these two aspects of the presumption of innocence at various times in history. While France recently reinforced the presumption of innocence by elevating it to a personality right, Anglo-American jurisdictions tend to view the doctrine as a mere rule of proof without effect before trial. Denying that the presumption of innocence has any application before trial ultimately legitimizes the unnecessary indignities inflicted upon a growing number of persons accused of crime. A revitalization of this cardinal principle of Anglo-American jurisprudence is much needed at a time when the words “accused” and “convict” are becoming increasingly synonymous. under the Fourth Amendment.”


    "An individual charged with a criminal offence faces grave social and personal consequences, including potential loss of physical liberty, subjection to social stigma and ostracism from the community, as well as other social, psychological and economic harms."

    http://tinyurl.com/7qnjycq
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Newport News
    Posts
    52
    So Mcaffe Knob is NPS land? I ask because my sister wants to hike up it sometime soon. Would OCing a pistol or rifle be legal on the trail? I do have a CHP. I don't believe we will deviate from the trail at all. Does anyone have a map of the boundaries? Sorry if this has been answered already. I'm a simple kind of guy. Big words confound me.

  22. #22
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Smith View Post
    I do have a CHP.
    Just lost me!

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,620
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc_Smith View Post
    So Mcaffe Knob is NPS land? I ask because my sister wants to hike up it sometime soon. Would OCing a pistol or rifle be legal on the trail? I do have a CHP. I don't believe we will deviate from the trail at all. Does anyone have a map of the boundaries? Sorry if this has been answered already. I'm a simple kind of guy. Big words confound me.
    McCaffe Knob is NPS land. You may carry in any legal manner and a CHP is not required.
    http://www.handsontheland.org/site-p...l-scenic-trail

    Someone more attuned to the intricacies of the trails will need to direct you to a map.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Henrico
    Posts
    2,139
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    McCaffe Knob is NPS land. You may carry in any legal manner and a CHP is not required.
    http://www.handsontheland.org/site-p...l-scenic-trail

    Someone more attuned to the intricacies of the trails will need to direct you to a map.
    I was doing some searching because I would like to OC while I hike the McAfee's Knob Trail and came upon this post. Very helpful. Know anything about Sharp Top or Devil's Marbleyard?

    My concern is the necessity of a CHP.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

    μολὼν λαβέ

    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,620
    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    I was doing some searching because I would like to OC while I hike the McAfee's Knob Trail and came upon this post. Very helpful. Know anything about Sharp Top or Devil's Marbleyard?

    My concern is the necessity of a CHP.
    Sharp Top, Flat Top and Harkening Hill are the three mountains that make up Peaks of Otter and appears to be NPS land. NPS honors the laws of the state in which the land lies - therefor no permit required if you are OCing in VA. Caution: you cannot carry into a facilitiy were NPS employees regularly work - adequate/very visible signage is required.
    http://www.cleveland.com/travel/inde...breathtak.html

    Devil's Marbleyard appears to be National Forest Land, not NPS (National Parks Service) land.
    http://ofthewoods61.wordpress.com/2013/04/page/2/

    On National Forest land you may carry concealed with a permit - there is no provsion for OC or carry w/o a permit except when hunting during approved seasons.
    http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_...rdb5066182.pdf

    Please personally confirm the above with NPS and/or NF as appropriate.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 01-02-2015 at 01:37 AM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •