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Thread: Fencing with unarmed opponents...

  1. #1
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Fencing with unarmed opponents...

    I just had a long "discussion" with someone who actually works for Brady on Facebook...

    Turns out the guy is their Network Manager,

    Sad, just very very sad.

    The lack of self-worth he displayed was almost pitiable.

    The inability to make a logical argument was so ridiculous that it was almost funny.

    And his "unicorns and fluffy puppies" worldview (which probably comes from the fact that he grew up and currently lives a cushy life in Chevy Chase MD) was so preciously delusional that it would be laughable--if he wasnt such a sociopathic control freak who insists that the only way to have a safe society is to take all the guns away from law-abiding citizens...

    I finally gave up, because in a battle of wits, it is not honorable to fence against an unarmed opponent...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 02-28-2012 at 04:28 AM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Emotion driven

    The strongest purveyors of all anti-liberty thought are emotion based (usually hate and fear). They'll dress it up with reasoning *after* they make up their mind via whatever emotion compels them to act, but ultimately they base their entire anti-human, anti-liberty world view on emotions. You cannot reason with them, and attempting to do so simply draws you into their bizzare world of ever flowing and changing whims, emotions and tirades. In fact, when you try to use calm facts, reason and logic with them, and break down their rationals in short order (not hard to do, since they were invented after their position was arrived at), your logic and reason become to them an "oppressor's tool" and merely confirms their feelings that we're unrelenting soulless monsters.

    Some of these types can be given a "conversion" through a traumatic emotional experience (being mugged, almost murdered, raped), but then they simply switch hats and are emotion driven illogical people who just happen to spout our point of view. Hardly worthy as allies, however, at least in that case they're not out actively working against us.

    The problem is that the bulk of people are more emotionally driven than they are logical and reasonable. We can thank the modern progressive education system for that, and it's media lackeys. This is the situation they want, action-reaction by impulse instead of calm reasoning. It serves the purposes of mindless collectivism well.

    End of the day I honestly have no idea how to stop it, other than not wasting energy on the fully emotion based people, and focusing on those who are instead just intellectually lazy and who accept whatever sounds good just to get by. They, at least, may have reason and logic.

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    People don't assess risk correctly. (maybe, neither do we, but OC/firearm carry is not =just= about risk/SD and it's more than SD, in that a firearm is just a 'brick' to an untrained person, generally)

    People/antis often latch on to a 'buzz-word' and why? IT'S SIMPLE.

    Anyone? Bueller?

    That way (and they're not alone in this mental aberration) they don't have to THINK about it at all.

    It seems simple but it's a complex, emotion driving thing.

    Example: I tried to get my friend help dieting. They were desperate. I said, 'well, now a days it's easier to assess and calculate and view your caloric intake'.

    Their answer? (be prepared to be gob-smacked). 'I DON'T WANT TO KNOW how many calories I'm eating'.

    WTF? Now, back in the early days it was surprisingly hard to use lists and pen and paper to calculate calorie intake and calorie output and micronutrient ratios. But we have on-line sites that do it for you.

    I said 'HOW can you ever lose weight if you don't know how many calories you're eating?' It's almost impossible (though there are tricks...).

    Another friend was saying 'I'm eating almost nothing, yet I'm gaining weight...wut do?' I said 'List your foods from last night, just after 6pm'.

    That list included: 2 cups of peanuts. In fact I said 'stop right there'.

    2 cups of peanuts:
    1,749 calories
    153.3g fat
    44.6g carb
    81.8g protein

    Another person was giving me their calories for the day.
    Person 1 was telling me they were eating 850-900 calories per day. They swore up and down they only ate that much - a 225lb female. That person should be losing 2lbs a week EASY.
    Person 2 was telling me they were eating 1,200 calories per day. That person (based on a 2,000 calorie/day maintenance diet) should easily lose 1.5lbs per week.

    Person 1 was actually gaining an incredible 2-4 pounds per week. And they thought they were starving themselves.
    Person 2 was gaining 2 lbs/week.

    Person 2's actual story was funny - after intensive questioning it was learned they were eating more than 1,000 calories in excess, BUT they were eating them after midnight. So they THOUGHT they didn't have a way to include this in their tracking because it wasn't ON the day and being before 8am on the next day, they didn't start tracking until breakfast, they were totally skipped on the tracking list.

    ANYWAY - people are KERAZY

    Antis have similar 'logic-tight' compartments.
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    I finally gave up, because in a battle of wits, it is not honorable to fence against an unarmed opponent...
    In a contest between a fascist malcontent and your individual God given rights, it's TOTALLY HONORABLE to skewer the "man's" entrails, rip them out and fling them too the buzzards.

    Next time don't be so damn soft.

    That way anyone who is watching will know better than too pick up that banner and embarrass themselves, since anyone who is still "on the fence" is a trend follower, and will adhere to prevailing winning opinion that WE decisively own.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quitter....you had a opportunity to bat him around, using Jedi mind tricks, like a cat with a rubber mouse. These opportunities, to annihilate a person's world-view, do not come along very often.

    ....oh well, maybe next time....
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Sawah, that was an example of what? You have friends who eat too much? We didn't need an example longer than what you were trying to clarify. Especially one that is significantly longer do to facts that have no relevance to the conversation.

    But Jefferson is right. They come to the conclusion that guns are bad through emotion and then look at anything to support their conclusion (I did the opposite, I think guns are good). Every day (if you're looking for them) you can find newspaper articles, online articles, TV shows or actual victims in person of gun violence. It is hardly front page news when someone shoots a vicious dog to protect kids in the area or crimes stopped by the use or display of a firearm or the many (hundreds, thousands) times that firearms are used every day with no incident at all. I carry my gun every day I go out, that would be boring news. "Thousands OC'ed today without incident" but that school shooting in ohio or that young boy shooting a girl because he had a gun in his bookbag that is national news. And you would expect it to be, news is suppose to be things of interest, not everyday things. That is why antis are usually against firearms because most have only had a limited experience with them either in real life or in news. Most that grow up around firearms or use(d) them regularly just think of them as a tool to accomplish things (Kill game, other sports, protection, acquisition through illegal means, instrument of destruction) not as an evil inanimate.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Quitter....you had a opportunity to bat him around, using Jedi mind tricks, like a cat with a rubber mouse. These opportunities, to annihilate a person's world-view, do not come along very often.

    ....oh well, maybe next time....

    When I said "I finally gave up", I didn't say after how long...

    The back-and-forth took nearly 3 hours. I posted close to 300 lines of text, including copious links to news articles on major media websites to back up my claims.

    And each time, he changed the subject, made a straw-man argument, or some silly appeal to emotion--at which point (EVERY time) I called a "Logical Fallacy Foul" on him...

    There is a pretty long "paper trail" for people to see. Luckily, it was on a mutual aquaintence's FB page, who is also a flaming leftie, so most of the people who will see this conversation will NOT be "on our side".

    Hopefully the logic, facts, and rationale of my argument will appeal to SOMEONE on the "left" who reads it. There HAVE to be some out there who aren't completely brain-dead, anti-logical, anti-factual unicorn huggers...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 03-02-2012 at 11:21 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    When I said "I finally gave up", I didn't say after how long...

    The back-and-forth took nearly 3 hours. I posted close to 300 lines of text, including copious links to news articles on major media websites to back up my claims.

    And each time, he changed the subject, made a straw-man argument, or some silly appeal to emotion--at which point (EVERY time) I called a "Logical Fallacy Foul" on him...

    There is a pretty long "paper trail" for people to see. Luckily, it was on a mutual aquaintence's FB page, who is also a flaming leftie, so most of the people who will see this conversation will NOT be "on our side".

    Hopefully the logic, facts, and rationale of my argument will appeal to SOMEONE on the "left" who reads it. There HAVE to be some out there who aren't completely brain-dead, anti-logical, anti-factual unicorn huggers...
    I've known a handful of bed wetters who value the 2A, since they value their ability to provide for themselves and understand the responsibilty to protect what they have lies solely with them. You probably did better than you think.

    I don't know a lot of libs though, since I converted I'm now somewhat allergic to moonbats.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    When I said "I finally gave up", I didn't say after how long...

    The back-and-forth took nearly 3 hours. I posted close to 300 lines of text, including copious links to news articles on major media websites to back up my claims.

    And each time, he changed the subject, made a straw-man argument, or some silly appeal to emotion--at which point (EVERY time) I called a "Logical Fallacy Foul" on him...

    There is a pretty long "paper trail" for people to see. Luckily, it was on a mutual aquaintence's FB page, who is also a flaming leftie, so most of the people who will see this conversation will NOT be "on our side".

    Hopefully the logic, facts, and rationale of my argument will appeal to SOMEONE on the "left" who reads it. There HAVE to be some out there who aren't completely brain-dead, anti-logical, anti-factual unicorn huggers...
    3 hours? That is some pretty tough slogging. Good on ya.

    Though, I guess I would have keep after-em until the only way he responded would be by posting nothing but:

    "Why you $%@#* idiot, and &%$$# troglodyte. You are so %$#@*& up, and are so $&%@#!* stupid, that you can go %&$#@#@*&."

    When you get them to that level, they really are displaying their true loony-lib-sock-puppet self.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    When I said "I finally gave up", I didn't say after how long...

    The back-and-forth took nearly 3 hours. I posted close to 300 lines of text, including copious links to news articles on major media websites to back up my claims.

    And each time, he changed the subject, made a straw-man argument, or some silly appeal to emotion--at which point (EVERY time) I called a "Logical Fallacy Foul" on him...

    There is a pretty long "paper trail" for people to see. Luckily, it was on a mutual aquaintence's FB page, who is also a flaming leftie, so most of the people who will see this conversation will NOT be "on our side".

    Hopefully the logic, facts, and rationale of my argument will appeal to SOMEONE on the "left" who reads it. There HAVE to be some out there who aren't completely brain-dead, anti-logical, anti-factual unicorn huggers...
    I heartily enjoy pointing out logical fallacies when arguing with the dogmatic Left (and Right). I've noticed a strange thing though, especially from the Left, that is, they'll soon tire of me pointing out their numerous fallacies and start sneering at me for "quoting that Latin crap" (in some variation of those words) and get very angry that I won't descend into emotionalism with them as they wish me to. It seems particularly funny comming from the Left, because they try and present themselves as the "rational, enlightened, intelligentsia elitist" types, yet when confronted with an actual educated person who does not agree with them, they turn immediately anti-intellectual in attitude. Had an argument with a fellow that sounds a lot like your FB pal, and it very quickly devolved into a constant stream of ad hominem (from him). His final post to me I answered by feeding every paragraph he wrote back to him with an annotation of the logical fallacy he was engaging in, along with a definition of the fallacy and its proper Latin name. He stomped off in a huff.

    People.

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostOfJefferson View Post
    The strongest purveyors of all anti-liberty thought are emotion based (usually hate and fear). They'll dress it up with reasoning *after* they make up their mind via whatever emotion compels them to act, but ultimately they base their entire anti-human, anti-liberty world view on emotions. You cannot reason with them, and attempting to do so simply draws you into their bizzare world of ever flowing and changing whims, emotions and tirades. In fact, when you try to use calm facts, reason and logic with them, and break down their rationals in short order (not hard to do, since they were invented after their position was arrived at), your logic and reason become to them an "oppressor's tool" and merely confirms their feelings that we're unrelenting soulless monsters.

    Some of these types can be given a "conversion" through a traumatic emotional experience (being mugged, almost murdered, raped), but then they simply switch hats and are emotion driven illogical people who just happen to spout our point of view. Hardly worthy as allies, however, at least in that case they're not out actively working against us.

    The problem is that the bulk of people are more emotionally driven than they are logical and reasonable. We can thank the modern progressive education system for that, and it's media lackeys. This is the situation they want, action-reaction by impulse instead of calm reasoning. It serves the purposes of mindless collectivism well.

    End of the day I honestly have no idea how to stop it, other than not wasting energy on the fully emotion based people, and focusing on those who are instead just intellectually lazy and who accept whatever sounds good just to get by. They, at least, may have reason and logic.
    This post is Golden and bears repeating here.

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    snip.......

    Hopefully the logic, facts, and rationale of my argument will appeal to SOMEONE on the "left" who reads it. There HAVE to be some out there who aren't completely brain-dead, anti-logical, anti-factual unicorn huggers...
    Lotsa luck with that ****, Dreamer, but bless you for trying!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostOfJefferson View Post
    I heartily enjoy pointing out logical fallacies when arguing with the dogmatic Left (and Right). I've noticed a strange thing though, especially from the Left, that is, they'll soon tire of me pointing out their numerous fallacies and start sneering at me for "quoting that Latin crap" (in some variation of those words) and get very angry that I won't descend into emotionalism with them as they wish me to. It seems particularly funny comming from the Left, because they try and present themselves as the "rational, enlightened, intelligentsia elitist" types, yet when confronted with an actual educated person who does not agree with them, they turn immediately anti-intellectual in attitude. Had an argument with a fellow that sounds a lot like your FB pal, and it very quickly devolved into a constant stream of ad hominem (from him). His final post to me I answered by feeding every paragraph he wrote back to him with an annotation of the logical fallacy he was engaging in, along with a definition of the fallacy and its proper Latin name. He stomped off in a huff.

    People.
    Probably because you act like the latin makes you superior in some way. The best way to make a good debate is to tailor it to you audience. Nobody alive speaks latin as a 1st language so it is best to keep the latin where it belongs. Would it make since if I start putting french in this post?
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Probably because you act like the latin makes you superior in some way. The best way to make a good debate is to tailor it to you audience. Nobody alive speaks latin as a 1st language so it is best to keep the latin where it belongs. Would it make since if I start putting french in this post?
    That made me laugh...

    But in GoJ's defense Latin (I thought) is the foundation of modern western language, so the latin definitions are just as valid as when they're used to label genus and species. It's actually too bad more people aren't familiar with it. How many people can even decipher roman numerals anymore?

    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingForWar View Post
    That made me laugh...

    But in GoJ's defense Latin (I thought) is the foundation of modern western language, so the latin definitions are just as valid as when they're used to label genus and species. It's actually too bad more people aren't familiar with it. How many people can even decipher roman numerals anymore?

    It is funny you brought that up, it was pointed out to me recently that most clocks with roman numerals are wrong. If you notice it they usually go I II III IIII instead of the correct IV. While we are on that subject, notice that A LOT of people younger than me (I am 21) don't understand things like "clockwise""counterclockwise" or "6 o'clock position".

    And most western languages are latin-based even things like germanic languages took words from latin.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    It is funny you brought that up, it was pointed out to me recently that most clocks with roman numerals are wrong. If you notice it they usually go I II III IIII instead of the correct IV. While we are on that subject, notice that A LOT of people younger than me (I am 21) don't understand things like "clockwise""counterclockwise" or "6 o'clock position".

    And most western languages are latin-based even things like germanic languages took words from latin.
    All too well. I remember our Drill SGT loosing his mind explaining too a 17 y/o private "6 o'clock position".

    I never noticed the IIII position on the clock before, AND I HAVE ONE ON THE LIVING ROOM WALL (I just noticed it). It was made in Vietnam though.

    Sad state of education we're in. "No child left behind" means "No Child Gets Ahead", that you president Bush.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Probably because you act like the latin makes you superior in some way. The best way to make a good debate is to tailor it to you audience. Nobody alive speaks latin as a 1st language so it is best to keep the latin where it belongs. Would it make since if I start putting french in this post?
    The thing is, the fallacies are listed and have always been listed by their Latin monikers (by always I mean at least several centuries). I'm not speaking Latin to somehow impress them, I'm rather attempting to use correct words and terms. Keep in mind here that I'm dealing with people who routinely declare their intellectual superiority to the world with every post they make or conversation they have, thus, in tailoring to my audience I am simply taking them at their word. In short, the onus is on them to either accept that they are not the end all be all of "intellect", or they can continue to be confused by *very commonly understood rhetorical labels*. Their choice.

    I understand what you're saying of course, if I'm speaking to somebody who clearly wouldn't grasp the message I'm sending with the correct terms, I'll skinny the conversation down to easily digested words and concepts. But if you come to me as if you are not only my superior, but also present yourself as the world's intellectual elite, as most progressives do, then you should expect both barrels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Probably because you act like the latin makes you superior in some way. The best way to make a good debate is to tailor it to you audience. Nobody alive speaks latin as a 1st language so it is best to keep the latin where it belongs. Would it make since if I start putting french in this post?
    And if you wish to post in French, be my guest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    And most western languages are latin-based even things like germanic languages took words from latin.
    In some cases, yes, and vice versa as well (latinized languages usually have some borrowed germanic). The only truly highly influenced Germanic language is English, the rest just have a few random loan words from association with the Romans back in the day.

    It gets even more confusing when you start going back to proto-germanic which has a lot of similarities to proto-celtic/proto-italic. It's easy to tell we all came from the same root language. I highly enjoy linguistic and historical etymology, it's a particularly interesting field that I could blab on about for days if you let me.
    Last edited by GhostOfJefferson; 03-08-2012 at 11:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostOfJefferson View Post
    And if you wish to post in French, be my guest.
    If I wish to post french then I need a translator. I only know one language and I doubt I understand half the words in it.

    You're right about the latin based languages. Most "languages" are just parts of other languages.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingForWar View Post


    Sad state of education we're in. "No child left behind" means "No Child Gets Ahead", that you president Bush.
    That happened WELL before Bush.

    In the 80's, when I was in elementary school, there was special needs (physically/mentally retarded) and gifted/talented (super smart)... Both were considered 'special education'... And needed additional support with their schooling.

    Only one problem.....

    THEY DID IT IN THE SAME CLASSROOM...

    So, you have the super smart kids, lumped in with the mentally and physically challenged.

    So while I'm reading Tom Clancy novels in first grade, I'm also having to deal with people that quite honestly had NO business in school.. children confined to wheelchairs with no motor control, no bowel control, etc etc....

    So, they give me a section in a booklet to finish.....I finish it.....they tell me to go to the next section.........finish that..........tell me again to go to next section........finish that........then finish the REST of the book because I didn't wanna ask again... I get in trouble for going too far ahead.......

    Then they tell me when I finish my assignment, I can read a book.. So for 30 out of the 40 min periods, I'm reading a book...

    Then they say that other kids are complaining because I get to read.....and I need to slow down to give the other kids a chance to catch up......and they say I can't read anymore.... They don't let me get harder work, because I'd be too far ahead, and make the other kids feel bad...

    So.... I'm 'ordered' to finish menial work, where I'm then 'ordered' to sit still for 30 mins while staring at a wall............

    Learn? At school? Never.........
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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