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Thread: Getting Ticked with Pistol Course....

  1. #1
    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Angry Getting Ticked with Pistol Course....

    Im getting my AZ non-res permit and to do so, one of the requirements is to take a NRA pistol or other basic firearm course.
    At this time, I wont say which range/shop I took the class.

    Anyhow, a few weeks ago, I take a class at a northern WV range. I tell him my plans, that I need a basic NRA certification.
    I complete the class and live fire which took about three hours. No biggy.

    At the end of the class, a bunch of us (students) ask the instructor "can we have our certification letter". The instructor says "well, WV requires you to have 8 hours of class room and live fire time". I spoke up and said " I never saw that on the WV State Police website about applying for a WV pistol permit".
    He said "oh, so you know more than me? Im the instructor and I have been doing this for years". I thought, okay, maybe he's right and when I get home I will look it up. I did that yesterday, and I still dont see where an eight hour class is required.
    I can say that a lot of students are not pleased.

    Well, today I went back to the range and shot for an hour. Afterwards, I gave him the link for the state police website. He just said " dont worry, your about half way done the course". I said "what!? This is about the 6th hour I have put in here to get a simple NRA certification. Look, Im not applying for a WV permit, because Im not a WV resident. Im applying for an AZ non-res permit".
    He then said, "well come back for about two ore hours of range time and I will give you the certification".
    I just walked out.

    Keep in mind, I have already put $60 in the class, and about $40 in range time.

    Sound like we are getting jerked around by this guy? Hes had a range and shop for years, so I would have thought he was reputable.
    Last edited by Sig229; 02-28-2012 at 07:04 PM.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

  2. #2
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    When someone's first instinct is the logical fallacy of Appealing to/from Authority you can almost be assured that they don't have the actual facts or knowledge to back up what they're saying. If they did, then they'd just present that knowledge.

    From a cursory look at Arizona's requirements for a Non-resident permit, you don't even need to shoot.
    "...4. Completion of any national rifle association firearms safety or training course..."
    You could take the NRA Home Firearm Safety Course, which is described as a "Non-shooting course and teaches students the basic knowledge, skills, and to explain the attitude necessary for the safe handling and storage of firearms and ammunition in the home."

    Heck you could go with paragraph 3. "Completion of any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Arizona game and fish department or a similar agency of another state."
    What are the Pennsylvania requirements for a hunter safety course?
    It appears to be available online
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 02-28-2012 at 08:17 PM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    You should report him to the NRA Instructors Certification office. The NRA takes it's reputation very seriously, and if one of their "certified instructors" is screwing people over, they will want to know about it, and will remedy the situation QUICKLY--either ordering him to honor his contracts with you folks, or threatening to pull his certs if he doesn't...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Regular Member GreatDaneMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    You should report him to the NRA Instructors Certification office. The NRA takes it's reputation very seriously, and if one of their "certified instructors" is screwing people over, they will want to know about it, and will remedy the situation QUICKLY--either ordering him to honor his contracts with you folks, or threatening to pull his certs if he doesn't...
    This. Go up the chain of command. Report him.
    Mud Blood and Oil with a great dane along for the ride!

  5. #5
    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Good idea with reporting it to the NRA. Im also a member of the NRA so they might be more apt to listing as well.

    What Im thinking is he figures he can charge for extra range time by telling his students that WV requires an eight hour course.

    Really despicable!
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

  6. #6
    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    depending on how the instructor 'advertised' the course, it might not be an "official" nra course but rather a 'course to fulfill WV's ccw requirements'. Yes, it appears it is advertised as a NRA course w/comments stating it fulfills WV ccw criteria.

    from what the OP described about time length, the course sounds like the NRA's FIRST Steps Pistol Orientation course which mandates the 'certificate' being given to participants upon successful completion of the three+ hour course which includes classroom and range time on a specific type of pistol.

    I can see where the confusion factor regarding the 8 hours for AZ ccw training.

    the AZ Dept of PS official site under 'Questions Regarding Initial Application for CCW Permit' there is a specific heading stating:
    How much does the 8-hour CCW course cost?
    DPS has no influence on the cost of the course. Prices are set by training organizations/instructors.

    http://www.azdps.gov/Services/Concea...s/Questions/#4

    yet if you go to ARS §13-3112.N. it states:

    N. An applicant shall demonstrate competence with a firearm through any of the following:
    1. snip
    2. snip
    3. Completion of any national rifle association firearms safety or training course.
    http://www.azdps.gov/Links/ARS/?l=13/03112.htm

    This gentleman offers the following recommendation(s):
    1) you go back to the original instructor and request your completion certificate. if he fails to immediately provide it say thanks...then send an email to: nrainstructors@nrahq.org and state your 'disappointment in this situation and the lack of professionalism of this instructor' of not providing you the appropriate completion certificate upon course completion!

    2) i would not character assassinate the instructor just stick to the fact you have no proof of completing the course.

    3) take your firearm shooting/buying business elsewhere

    (unfortunately this is the only criteria to complain up channels about this individual [from what info OP provided] and the conduct and teaching of this course)

    wabbit

    PS sounds like the range owner/instuctor is on a huge power trip and has been for awhile...
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 02-29-2012 at 04:03 PM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post

    I can see where the confusion factor regarding the 8 hours for AZ ccw training.
    Thanks for that, but I already did the research on the AZ permit and I even explained to the NRA instructor about that.

    I just think he's trying to milk as much range costs as he can from the students.

    I'll keep you folks posted and thanks for all the replies!
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

  8. #8
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229 View Post
    Thanks for that, but I already did the research on the AZ permit and I even explained to the NRA instructor about that.

    I just think he's trying to milk as much range costs as he can from the students.

    I'll keep you folks posted and thanks for all the replies!
    If you believe he is indeed 'trying to milk his students', that's just the polite way of saying that he's 'trying to bilk his students.' As a responsible member of the public, should you allow that sort of behavior to go unreported and uncorrected?

    You gave him a more than sufficient chance to change his behavior and he made a claim of expert knowledge on the subject, so he can't make the claim that it's by accident or ignorance that he's doing it.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-01-2012 at 02:34 AM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Fired off an email today about the situation.
    Since its the weekend coming up, Probably will be a few days to hear back.

    I also plan on going back to the range/instructor tomorrow and demand for my certificate.
    Will post with an update.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Sorry to hear about your experience with the instructor. I would certainly fire off an email to the NRA and hope that his instructor status is revoked. That being said, be sure to also post this as a review on google/yelp/here so that others can avoid this guy.

    I am not sure where in WV you are, but there is an NRA instructor near Shepardstown that teaches a 3.5-4 hour course. He doesn't require live fire, but he knows some sheriffs in the state are dicks if it doesn't say "with live fire" on the certificate, so for people in those counties or people going for a non-resident license, after the course he will take you outback to pop off 2 or 3 rounds with a .22 in order to give you the live fire certificate. Last I checked his prices were $60, but that was a year ago or so.

  11. #11
    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moodock View Post
    I am not sure where in WV you are, but there is an NRA instructor near Shepardstown that teaches a 3.5-4 hour course. He doesn't require live fire, but he knows some sheriffs in the state are dicks if it doesn't say "with live fire" on the certificate, so for people in those counties or people going for a non-resident license, after the course he will take you outback to pop off 2 or 3 rounds with a .22 in order to give you the live fire certificate. Last I checked his prices were $60, but that was a year ago or so.
    There is NO possible way to legitimately claim a class is NRA without live fire, either basic pistol or first steps. 2 or 3 rounds of .22 are simply not an acceptable live fire experience. The NRA course has very specific requirements, and any instructor who is teaching anything else needs to return to the basic instructor's outline or stop advertising NRA classes. If we don't insist on this, the whole NRA training program will quickly be destroyed.

    The basic pistol course should cover at least 10 hours, including several hours of range time. The "first steps" class should be over at least 4 hours, including range time - shooting the prescribed course as set out in the NRA instructor's syllabus. Do not tolerate anything less!!
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

  12. #12
    Regular Member yz9890's Avatar
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    finish the class then get your money back. that's a bunch of crap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MamaLiberty View Post
    There is NO possible way to legitimately claim a class is NRA without live fire, either basic pistol or first steps. 2 or 3 rounds of .22 are simply not an acceptable live fire experience. The NRA course has very specific requirements, and any instructor who is teaching anything else needs to return to the basic instructor's outline or stop advertising NRA classes. If we don't insist on this, the whole NRA training program will quickly be destroyed.

    The basic pistol course should cover at least 10 hours, including several hours of range time. The "first steps" class should be over at least 4 hours, including range time - shooting the prescribed course as set out in the NRA instructor's syllabus. Do not tolerate anything less!!
    Correct. And, if the instructor is teaching other syllabus that are not the NRA syllabus, he cannot use the "NRA Instructor" title for the course, OR for certificates.

    This instructor needs his cert pulled.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229 View Post
    Im getting my AZ non-res permit and to do so, one of the requirements is to take a NRA pistol or other basic firearm course.
    At this time, I wont say which range/shop I took the class.

    Anyhow, a few weeks ago, I take a class at a northern WV range. I tell him my plans, that I need a basic NRA certification.
    I complete the class and live fire which took about three hours. No biggy.
    Right there, you earned the certificate for that course.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229
    At the end of the class, a bunch of us (students) ask the instructor "can we have our certification letter". The instructor says "well, WV requires you to have 8 hours of class room and live fire time". I spoke up and said " I never saw that on the WV State Police website about applying for a WV pistol permit".
    The WV requirements are one thing. If he does not provide a certificate for your course completion, you have a valid complaint through the NRA to have him deliver your earned certificate. Further, once you have that certificate in hand, you should consider hitting up the NRA for:
    1) Force the instructor to return the costs for the non-required range time he bilked you for.
    2) Have the NRA suspend his credentials until he recerts.
    or 3) Have the NRA pull his credentials permanently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229
    He said "oh, so you know more than me? Im the instructor and I have been doing this for years". I thought, okay, maybe he's right and when I get home I will look it up. I did that yesterday, and I still dont see where an eight hour class is required.
    I can say that a lot of students are not pleased.

    Well, today I went back to the range and shot for an hour. Afterwards, I gave him the link for the state police website. He just said " dont worry, your about half way done the course". I said "what!? This is about the 6th hour I have put in here to get a simple NRA certification. Look, Im not applying for a WV permit, because Im not a WV resident. Im applying for an AZ non-res permit".
    He then said, "well come back for about two ore hours of range time and I will give you the certification".
    I just walked out.

    Keep in mind, I have already put $60 in the class, and about $40 in range time.

    Sound like we are getting jerked around by this guy? Hes had a range and shop for years, so I would have thought he was reputable.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  15. #15
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MamaLiberty View Post
    There is NO possible way to legitimately claim a class is NRA without live fire, either basic pistol or first steps.
    Just to be clear, not every NRA class requires shooting, i.e. NRA Home Firearm Safety Course.

    13-3112
    N. An applicant shall demonstrate competence with a firearm through any of the following:
    1. Completion of any firearms training program that is approved by the department of public safety and that is conducted by instructors who are authorized by the department of public safety or who possess current national rifle association instructor certifications in pistol and personal protection and who submit to a background investigation, including a check for warrants and a criminal history records check.
    2. Completion of any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Arizona game and fish department or a similar agency of another state.
    3. Completion of any National Rifle Association Firearms Safety or training Course.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-03-2012 at 12:38 PM.

  16. #16
    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    excuse me?

    quote mamaliberity: There is NO possible way to legitimately claim a class is NRA without live fire,....unquote...
    quote: NRA Home Firearm Safety Course
    Non-shooting course and teaches students the basic knowledge, skills, and to explain the attitude necessary for the safe handling and storage of firearms and ammunition in the home. This is a four-hour course for safe gun handling that is conducted in the classroom only. Students are taught NRA’s three rules for safe gun handling; primary causes of firearms accidents; firearm parts; how to unload certain action types; ammunition components; cleaning; care; safe storage of firearms in the home; and the benefits of becoming an active participant in the shooting sports. unquote http://www.nrainstructors.org/CourseCatalog.aspx

    quote mamaliberity: The basic pistol course should cover at least 10 hours....unquote
    quote: basic pistol course: This course is at least 8-hours long.... unquote. http://www.nrainstructors.org/CourseCatalog.aspx

    Sig229, get back w/the bloke and ask for your certificate since it is an integral components of the course. if you do not get it immediately, e.g., handed to you, raise the issue to the NRA addy i provided previously...

    best of luck
    wabbit

    ps: geeeeezzzz, come on people at least provide some semblance of viable information that can't be readily verified.
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 03-03-2012 at 12:49 PM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Just to be clear, not every NRA class requires shooting, i.e. NRA Home Firearm Safety Course.
    We were talking ONLY about the basic pistol and first steps class.

    I seriously discourage novice students from even considering a "permit" until they have completed the basic pistol, self defense in the home, and the self defense OUTSIDE the home classes. The last one is the only class with any carry information at all.

    If the "permit" is such a joke there... and doesn't require any meaningful training, why bother with it at all? We manage quite nicely without it here in Wyoming - though it is still available for those who can't stand not to have one.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    You may be talking only about Basic Pistol and First Steps class but the Original Poster is talking about obtaining an Arizona non-resident permit
    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229
    I'm getting my AZ non-res permit and to do so, one of the requirements is to take a NRA pistol or other basic firearm course.
    The requirements for obtaining an Arizona non-resident permit have been posted. They do not require range time, nor the discharge of a firearm.

    There is no disagreement that training is a good thing, but your statement that "...There is NO possible way to legitimately claim a class is NRA without live fire, either basic pistol or first steps..." is factually incorrect.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-03-2012 at 01:47 PM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    You may be talking only about Basic Pistol and First Steps class but the Original Poster is talking about obtaining an Arizona non-resident permit

    The requirements for obtaining an Arizona non-resident permit have been posted. They do not require range time, nor the discharge of a firearm.

    There is no disagreement that training is a good thing, but your statement that "...There is NO possible way to legitimately claim a class is NRA without live fire, either basic pistol or first steps..." is factually incorrect.
    I stand squarely behind my statement, which has nothing at all to do with the AZ "permit." There may be no requirement for live fire for an AZ permit, but that does not change the fact that there IS most certainly a live fire requirement for ANY NRA basic pistol or first step class certificate. As an NRA certified instructor for the last six years, I can guarantee it. Any "instructor" presenting either pistol class without live fire is not honoring the commitment made when they agreed to become instructors. And, furthermore, they are committed to following the NRA syllabus for those classes. If they wish to present something else, they must call it something else.
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MamaLiberty View Post
    There is NO possible way to legitimately claim a class is NRA without live fire, either basic pistol or first steps.
    This is a completely accurate statement. It is not possible to claim this means anything other than exactly what it means. This wasn't about any NRA courses except the "Basic Pistol" or "First Steps." BOTH of those NRA courses REQUIRE live fire range time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    There is no disagreement that training is a good thing, but your statement that "...There is NO possible way to legitimately claim a class is NRA without live fire, either basic pistol or first steps..." is factually incorrect.
    Falls, you are completely incorrect. The Basic Pistol and First Steps both require live fire.
    To get those two certifications, live fire is required. These also fill the requirement for the CC permit as stated, whether the permit requires live fire or not.
    Last edited by wrightme; 03-03-2012 at 02:08 PM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post
    excuse me?

    quote mamaliberity: There is NO possible way to legitimately claim a class is NRA without live fire,....unquote...ps: geeeeezzzz, come on people at least provide some semblance of viable information that can't be readily verified.
    She did. Misquoting her does not make it something other than what she said.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  22. #22
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    MamaLiberty's statement, "...I stand squarely behind my statement, which has nothing at all to do with the AZ "permit..." is unmistakably and unequivocally correct.

    That it has noting to do with the original poster's attempt to obtain an Arizona non-resident permit is just as correct.
    No one is denying that range-time is required for Basic Pistol or Fists Steps, we're just saying that NEITHER is a requirement to obtain an Arizona non-resident permit as the original poster is attempting to do.

    Falls, you are completely incorrect. The Basic Pistol and First Steps both require live fire.
    To get those two certifications, live fire is required. These also fill the requirement for the CC permit as stated, whether the permit requires live fire or not.
    Non sequitur, Although those two classes do require live fire, the NRA Home Firearm Safety Course does not.
    1) The class is offered by the NRA and as such is an NRA class.
    2) IAW the Arizona Revised Statutes, (q.v.), a live fire class is not a requirement.
    3) That the classes mentioned by MamaLiberty [i]also meet[/i[ the ARS requirements is immaterial as Hunter Safety course that also do not require live-fire meet the statutory requirement.

    That would make me.... completely correct.... as I never made the statement that live-fire wasn't a requirement for NRA Basic Pistol or First Steps. The statement I made was that live-fire was NOT a requirement for obtaining an Arizona non-resident permit and I also provided citations for same.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-03-2012 at 02:42 PM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    MamaLiberty's statement, "...I stand squarely behind my statement, which has nothing at all to do with the AZ "permit..." is unmistakably and unequivocally correct.
    Then why did you try to claim that statement was false?
    Quote Originally Posted by Falls
    That it has noting to do with the original poster's attempt to obtain an Arizona non-resident permit is just as correct.
    No one is denying that range-time is required for Basic Pistol or Fists Steps, we're just saying that NEITHER is a requirement to obtain an Arizona non-resident permit as the original poster is attempting to do.
    Actually, EITHER course would qualify for the permit, but so will other courses. The op was attempting to take a course, took it, did the live fire, and the fool instructor tried to tell him he had more requirements. The OP didn't try to claim those were requirements. In fact, he tried to argue that the instructor was wrong, ant those weren't requirements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls
    Non sequitur, Although those two classes do require live fire, the NRA Home Firearm Safety Course does not.
    1) The class is offered by the NRA and as such is an NRA class.
    2) IAW the Arizona Revised Statutes, (q.v.), a live fire class is not a requirement.
    3) That the classes mentioned by MamaLiberty [i]also meet[/i[ the ARS requirements is immaterial as Hunter Safety course that also do not require live-fire meet the statutory requirement.
    No one claimed that only NRA live-fire courses fit, except the fool instructor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Falls
    That would make me.... completely correct.... as I never made the statement that live-fire wasn't a requirement for NRA Basic Pistol or First Steps. The statement I made was that live-fire was NOT a requirement for obtaining an Arizona non-resident permit and I also provided citations for same.
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    training is a good thing, but your statement that "...There is NO possible way to legitimately claim a class is NRA without live fire, either basic pistol or first steps..." is factually incorrect.
    So, how can her statement be factually incorrect, unless you are claiming that either basic pistol or first steps does not require live fire?

    You claimed she was wrong. SHE stated that the Basic Pistol and First Steps required live fire. You argued that some other course didn't. HER statement was completely correct, and the statement you made to attempt to prove her wrong WAS incorrect.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  24. #24
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Ahhh, I think I see where your misunderstanding comes from.
    MamaLiberty's statement was, and I quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by MamaLiberty
    There is NO possible way to legitimately claim a class is NRA without live fire, either basic pistol or first steps."
    - emphasis is mine.
    That statement is as false as me stating "There is NO possible way to legitimately claim a living thing in your house is related to you, either your dog, or your ficus plant." - it presents a false dilemma, which is a logical fallacy.

    I offer the following in rebuttle,
    1) The NRA offers classes.
    2) One of the courses offered by the NRA is the Home Firearm Safety Course
    3) The syllabus of the NRA Home Firearm Safety Course states "Short Description : Non-shooting course and teaches students the basic knowledge, skills, and to explain the attitude necessary for the safe handling and storage of firearms and ammunition in the home.

    More Details: This is a four-hour course for safe gun handling that is conducted in the classroom only. Students are taught NRA’s three rules for safe gun handling; primary causes of firearms accidents; firearm parts; how to unload certain action types; ammunition components; cleaning; care; safe storage of firearms in the home; and the benefits of becoming an active participant in the shooting sports. Students will receive the NRA Home Firearm Safety handbook, NRA Gun Safety Rules brochure, Basic Firearm Training Program brochure, course completion certificate. (Lesson Plan 6-90, reprint 12-08).


    Therefore:
    The statement that there can be no possible way for a legitimate claim that a class is NRA without live fire is demonstrably incorrect.

    I did not and do not dispute that NRA Basic Pistol or NRA First Steps require live fire, I am disputing that an NRA class that doesn't offer live fire is illegitimate and not an NRA class.

    Had MamaLiberty posted "There is no way to legitimately claim that neither NRA Basic Pistol nor NRA First Steps requires live fire" she would have been correct and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    Now, why is it non sequitur?
    Because life fire is Not a requirement to obtain an Arizona non-resident permit.
    Which are:
    N. An applicant shall demonstrate competence with a firearm through any of the following:

    1. Completion of any firearms safety or training course or class that is available to the general public, that is offered by a law enforcement agency, a junior college, a college or a private or public institution, academy, organization or firearms training school and that is approved by the department of public safety or that uses instructors who are certified by the national rifle association.

    2. Completion of any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Arizona game and fish department or a similar agency of another state.

    3. Completion of any national rifle association firearms safety or training course.

    4. Completion of any law enforcement firearms safety or training course or class that is offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies or other divisions or subdivisions of law enforcement or security enforcement and that is approved by the department of public safety.

    5. Evidence of current military service or proof of honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions from the United States armed forces.

    6. A valid current or expired concealed weapon, firearm or handgun permit or license that is issued by another state or a political subdivision of another state and that has a training or testing requirement for initial issuance.

    7. Completion of any governmental police agency firearms training course and qualification to carry a firearm in the course of normal police duties.

    8. Completion of any other firearms safety or training course or class that is conducted by a department of public safety approved or national rifle association certified firearms instructor.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-03-2012 at 04:06 PM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Fallon, Nevada, USA
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    5,580
    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Ahhh, I think I see where your misunderstanding comes from.
    MamaLiberty's statement was, and I quote:
    - emphasis is mine.
    Your emphasis makes her statement something it wasn't intended to be. Instead of understanding that, you are arguing against something that wasn't stated, wasting all the forum space and time, seemingly just to attempt to argue against someone.
    Last edited by wrightme; 03-03-2012 at 04:08 PM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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