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Thread: My Rant to The Mirage...

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    Regular Member DooFster's Avatar
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    My Rant to The Mirage...

    As you guys already know, I was FORCED to put my 9mm back in my car last time I was at The Mirage and here's what my wife received a few weeks ago:


    From: "McKenzie, Mary" <MaMcKenzie@mirage.com>
    Date: January 30, 2012 4:34:56 PM PST
    To: <doofandpooey@gmail.com>
    Subject: FW: Firearms Policy


    Dear Ms. Chilson:

    Thank you for your email regarding your upcoming visit to The Mirage. For the safety and comfort of other guests visiting The Mirage, we do not permit persons to carry firearms on our property.

    Thank you for choosing The Mirage and we hope you have a wonderful stay. If there is anything else I can assist you with please don't hesitate to ask.

    Best regards,

    Mary McKenzie | Security Administrative Manager
    The Mirage. Vegas Starts Here™
    P: 702.791.7180 F:702.792.7630
    mirage.com

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    From: Megan and Tim Chilson [mailto:doofandpooey@gmail.com]
    Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 8:03 PM
    To: GUESTSERVICES-MCH
    Subject: Firearms Policy



    To whom it may concern,

    I am going to be coming to the Mirage on business very soon and I am curious to know what your hotels policy on firearms is. I ask this because I legally open carry my gun and from what I have read Nevada law states there is no problem with me carrying as long as I am not in a school zone, federal property, or courthouse. My intention is not to cause any problems, I just want to follow the law and do what is within my legal right to do. Thank you for your time and any information that you can give me.

    Megan



    This is what I sent them a couple weeks ago...



    Ms. McKenzie:

    I was reading up on what you informed my wife a few days ago and I have to respectfully say that you may be wrong when you informed her that having firearms on your property is not allowed...

    There are no signs on your property that state "no firearms are allowed", and per NRS 207.200 (Nevada state law), a sign on a private building saying no firearms are allowed does not necessarily make firearms illegal to have in any private building. *The only way it would be illegal for me to have my firearm(s) there is if I am under the influence of alcohol (with a BAC of over 0.10).

    I have enclosed a copy of a guide regarding firearms and Nevada state laws. *I feel that I have had my second amendment rights taken from me when I (along with my wife) cannot legally carry firearms and don't have a more-safe way to defend myself and my family if the need arises.

    The reason why I brought this issue up is because I was in your hotel a few days ago, and one of your security supervisors (I believe his name was Scott) informed me that it was 100% illegal for me to have my firearm there when there were NO signs up on ANY of your doors, or any firm information as to my firearm not being allowed to be there. *Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department officers were located right outside the main entrance (down by the 1-OAK club) and THEY informed me it WAS legal for me to enter your building, openly-carrying my firearm.

    Please take a couple of minutes to read the enclosed form regarding the laws when it comes to having a firearm in Nevada.

    I look forward to hearing back from you or any of your supervisors. *Again, this response is not intended to be disrespectful whatsoever. *I just want to make you all aware that openly-carrying a firearm on private property is completely legal under Nevada state law. *Thank you and have a wonderful day!

    Tim Chilson


    Of course I didn't receive a reply so I sent this to them a few minutes ago...


    Ms McKenzie:

    I contacted you a couple of weeks ago requesting further information regarding your hotel's firearms policy.

    As of today I haven't heard anything from you or your supervisors and this lack of communication is extremely disrespectful to me and my family. This disrespect has also been presented to other legally-carrying firearm owners in the Las Vegas area. *I feel that my 2nd Amendment right has been stripped from me and I would like to find out where you're receiving your information from.

    I have attached a read-receipt to this email to verify whether you have read this or not. *If you do not want to reply and/or contact me with information in a timely manner, I and my family members, along with other firearm owners, will be sure to not step foot into your hotel and casino until you allow us to legally carry our firearms in your buildings. This will also lead to your company losing potential customers and potential income. Thank you and have a great day!

    Respectfully,

    Tim Chilson



    Let's hope I get a reply otherwise my kids won't get to see the tiger and dolphin exhibits...
    Last edited by DooFster; 02-28-2012 at 10:25 PM.
    IT is better to have a gun on you and NOT need it, than to need a gun and NOT have it on you...

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    I sympathize completely, Tim.

    But they are not required to post signs. They can tell you in any way they choose. Of course, we agree completely that their request is not based on any logic whatsoever; quite the contrary.

    When you MUST go on private property that requests "no firearms" you would break no laws by concealing it so that their feelings aren't hurt. Of course, this applies after you get your CCW permit!

    I can't remember the last time I was there. But I can tell you I was armed. Of course, they couldn't tell, though.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member DooFster's Avatar
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    And the funny thing is that the security guard was telling me to conceal it while heading back to my car. I straight-up told him I wasn't in the mood to get arrested. He still insisted. Of course with no CCW I didn't comply. I made a deal with him: let me back in the hotel with my family and I would keep it in the car... He agreed...

    I also understand that they're not required to post signs. It's just a little frustrating...
    Last edited by DooFster; 02-28-2012 at 10:42 PM.
    IT is better to have a gun on you and NOT need it, than to need a gun and NOT have it on you...

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    I also agree with you that it is disrespectful to us. I hope our trend of pro-firearms freedoms and carrying in this country and county continues through the point where public perception agrees with us.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DooFster View Post
    And the funny thing is that the security guard was telling me to conceal it while heading back to my car. ...
    Good point. THIS should have been a very highlighted part of your letter. Their security insisted that you should violate the law.
    Last edited by MAC702; 02-28-2012 at 10:47 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member DooFster's Avatar
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    They have my name in their security reports too...
    IT is better to have a gun on you and NOT need it, than to need a gun and NOT have it on you...

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Yep, a lawful, respectful family man is right in there with the town drunks, bar-fighters, and card table cheaters!
    Last edited by MAC702; 02-28-2012 at 10:58 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member DooFster's Avatar
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    Did I mention that I hate stupid people?
    IT is better to have a gun on you and NOT need it, than to need a gun and NOT have it on you...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DooFster View Post
    And the funny thing is that the security guard was telling me to conceal it while heading back to my car. I straight-up told him I wasn't in the mood to get arrested. He still insisted. Of course with no CCW I didn't comply. I made a deal with him: let me back in the hotel with my family and I would keep it in the car... He agreed...

    I also understand that they're not required to post signs. It's just a little frustrating...
    Wait a second, If you are on Private property, and a Representitive of the property says you can conceal, what would make that illegal?
    Last edited by DON`T TREAD ON ME; 02-29-2012 at 01:09 AM.

  10. #10
    28kfps
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    This really does not help you posting concern however just my two cents.
    I have been replying to such statements “we do not permit persons to carry firearms on our property” whenever I have a chance, by saying that is not true! You allow illegal firearms on your property every day. I bet if you were to search 100% of the people on your property right now, you will find dozens of illegal firearms that you and your employees allowed to walk in. Therefore, you do in fact allow firearms on your property all hours of the day ever day. What you are not allow is guest with legal carried firearms on you property, thus making your property considerable more dangerous for you and your guest.

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    Wait a second, If you are on Private property, and a Representitive of the property says you can conceal, what would make that illegal?

    That is good question. However, if legal, I would want it in writing that it was ok to CC on their property. Or at least on tape.

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    Wait a second, If you are on Private property, and a Representitive of the property says you can conceal, what would make that illegal?
    Yeah, good luck on getting said representative to confirm that permission.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    Wait a second, If you are on Private property, and a Representitive of the property says you can conceal, what would make that illegal?
    What would make that illegal is that there is no exception to a concealment prohibition for private property. The only exception to concealment statute is the defined exception for those with the conceal permit. If there IS a statute exempting private property, I have not located one yet.

    NRS 202.350 defines the crime, AND lists the exceptions. It appears that upon bare wording, such act could be a Category C felony.
    Last edited by wrightme; 02-29-2012 at 08:56 AM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by 28kfps View Post
    This really does not help you posting concern however just my two cents.
    I have been replying to such statements “we do not permit persons to carry firearms on our property” whenever I have a chance, by saying that is not true! You allow illegal firearms on your property every day. I bet if you were to search 100% of the people on your property right now, you will find dozens of illegal firearms that you and your employees allowed to walk in. Therefore, you do in fact allow firearms on your property all hours of the day ever day. What you are not allow is guest with legal carried firearms on you property, thus making your property considerable more dangerous for you and your guest.
    Not to nitpick a whole lot, but to say that someone allows a person to bring a firearm onto their property without their knowledge is a bit disingenuous. I have no doubt that if the Mirage was aware of the firearm the would escort that person out. Since they are unaware they are not "allowing" anything.

    Also, the second ammemdment only protects you from the government restricting your right to bear arms. It has nothing to do with your rights on private property. Just as a private company has no obligation to allow you free speech, they have no obligation to permit you to have a handgun. You, in turn, are free to not spend money there and tell others to not do do as well. Free society at work.
    Last edited by Kinoons; 02-29-2012 at 04:18 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinoons View Post
    Not to nitpick a whole lot, but to say that someone allows a person to bring a firearm onto their property without their knowledge is a bit disingenuous. I have no doubt that if the Mirage was aware of the firearm the would escort that person out. Since they are unaware they are not "allowing" anything. ...
    I see your point and raise you this one:

    Even with all the metal detectors and vigilance against firearms, every once in a while a firearm winds up on a commercial flight. What do we hear? "How did they 'allow' this to happen?"

    I agree that such private property does not expressly allow firearms, but by their inability to control them, they do, in fact, technically "allow" it.
    Last edited by MAC702; 02-29-2012 at 05:10 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    What would make that illegal is that there is no exception to a concealment prohibition for private property. The only exception to concealment statute is the defined exception for those with the conceal permit. If there IS a statute exempting private property, I have not located one yet.

    NRS 202.350 defines the crime, AND lists the exceptions. It appears that upon bare wording, such act could be a Category C felony.

    So I can't conceal in my own house, on my property, or my place of business?

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    I see your point and raise you this one:

    Even with all the metal detectors and vigilance against firearms, every once in a while a firearm winds up on a commercial flight. What do we hear? "How did they 'allow' this to happen?"

    I agree that such private property does not expressly allow firearms, but by their inability to control them, they do, in fact, technically "allow" it.


    Actually quite the opposite.
    Allow --
    Admit (an event or activity) as legal or acceptable.
    Give (someone) permission to do something.
    Synonyms:
    permit - let - admit - grant - concede - give - accept

    Permission is expressly part of allowing something. The general public's lack of understanding Of this does not change what it really means.

    In what is a privately owned, but admittedly public location, it is impossible to exert total control over what enters the building. To expect the owner to do so is childish and silly. Using the argument that criminals will ignore your rules so why do you have them can easily be extended to criminals ignore our laws, so why have those as well?

    Not saying that I agree with their policy, but using the "but guns are there anyways" And assign them blame for it won't win any battles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    So I can't conceal in my own house, on my property, or my place of business?

    TBG
    I do not know the answer to that question. What I DO know is that i am unaware of any exemption to the cc restriction except those enumerated in statute, and that does not include an exception for private property.

    And, if someone were to be a test case, it would possibly mean standing for a Category C felony. I do not plan on going for that case myself.
    Last edited by wrightme; 02-29-2012 at 07:14 PM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinoons View Post
    Actually quite the opposite.
    Allow --
    Admit (an event or activity) as legal or acceptable.
    Give (someone) permission to do something.
    Synonyms:
    permit - let - admit - grant - concede - give - accept...
    You didn't cite your [abridged] source. Mine is www.dictionary.com, but I make no claims to its authoritativeness, merely use it to show the use of the word "allow" is certainly acceptable for the conversation. Let's use definition #3, shall we?

    al·low   [uh-lou] verb (used with object)
    1. to give permission to or for; permit: to allow a student to be absent; No swimming allowed.
    2. to let have; give as one's share; grant as one's right: to allow a person $100 for expenses.
    3. to permit by neglect, oversight, or the like: to allow a door to remain open.
    4. to admit; acknowledge; concede: to allow a claim.
    5. to take into consideration, as by adding or subtracting; set apart: to allow an hour for changing trains.
    Last edited by MAC702; 02-29-2012 at 08:20 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Stop staying at the Mirage, and stop giving them money.

    Problem solved.

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    The two I listed were the first two listed when I typed allow into google.

    Even using your 3rd definition, which is to allow to happen via neglect, etc...implies that you are aware of the situation and choose to not to do something about it, or permitted a situation that reasonably would cause that situation to occur. in this instance, and your example about the TSA, while there is an assumption that someone is not following your rules, you don't know any one person for sure.

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    I do not know the answer to that question. What I DO know is that i am unaware of any exemption to the cc restriction except those enumerated in statute, and that does not include an exception for private property.

    And, if someone were to be a test case, it would possibly mean standing for a Category C felony. I do not plan on going for that case myself.
    Sounds like there needs to be a push to clarify the law, or better yet, Constitutional carry would solve it all.

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    It has been implied, by many, that carrying a firearm on your own property openly or concealed is at the discretion of the owner/resident. I don't see a legal standing in the statutes to support this. I'd like to see something a bit more concrete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FallonJeeper View Post
    It has been implied, by many, that carrying a firearm on your own property openly or concealed is at the discretion of the owner/resident. I don't see a legal standing in the statutes to support this. I'd like to see something a bit more concrete.
    IMHO, it can be argued that on actual private property, LE would not be aware. As for private property open to the public, I would hesitate.


    For instance, if a person were to cc in their own home, what mechanism would place them in the hands of the law.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Yes, but there is a difference between something being legal, and something being illegal and simply not getting caught.

    Heck -- you could carry concealed without a permit, and as long as there is no need for an interaction with an officer you'll never get caught. I'm sure many people who do not care about the law do so daily. I don't want to be included with the majority of those people.

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