Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 64

Thread: Odd LEO encounter in BC

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Jonesville, Mi, ,
    Posts
    38

    Odd LEO encounter in BC

    Was in Schlotzky's having supper after a visit to Southside in Battle Creek to shoot last night, do it all the time OC and never had a problem. I was OC a 1911 in a paddle holster. Two MSP troopers came in and sat down to eat. I had refilled my drink while they were waiting for their food and I'm sure saw my gun. When we got up to leave I put my jacket on and right away one of the troopers motions me over to their table and asked if I had a cpl. I answered yes but I didn't need it to OC (DOH! I was now CC) and told him I also had another firearm concealed (PM9 in pocket holster). He requested to see my cpl. Best I know I am required by law to show him as I was now CC. He looked at said I was ok then and I was on my way. Not sure why he decided to question me. Had I been CC only he would have never known and had I tucked my jacket behind my holster he would, in theory, had no reason to chat with me. I don't go out of my way to OC or CC it is just easier to carry OC. Kinda ticked me off but it was a very brief encounter.

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    Quote Originally Posted by gasgasmi View Post
    Not sure why he decided to question me.

    Simple. He wanted to violate his oath by charging you with a felony instead of protecting your right to both keep and to bear arms. That would have sent you to prison where prison things would happen to you for around 5 years, you would be financially ruined, emotionally and socially destroyed, never be able to vote or be armed again, all because you are such a hardened and dangerous criminal who must be stopped.

  3. #3
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Portage, MI
    Posts
    1,490
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Simple. He wanted to violate his oath by charging you with a felony instead of protecting your right to both keep and to bear arms. That would have sent you to prison where prison things would happen to you for around 5 years, you would be financially ruined, emotionally and socially destroyed, never be able to vote or be armed again, all because you are such a hardened and dangerous criminal who must be stopped.
    5 years is a max. If it was a first offense with a pretty clean record I don't see him being in for more than a couple years.

    OP: You did exactly as you were supposed to. The officer didn't say anything until you did something that requires a license and in Michigan you must provide CPL and ID when carry concealed if the officer wants to see it.

    (2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:
    (a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol. (b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  4. #4
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    437
    Quote Originally Posted by gasgasmi View Post
    Was in Schlotzky's having supper after a visit to Southside in Battle Creek to shoot last night, do it all the time OC and never had a problem. I was OC a 1911 in a paddle holster. Two MSP troopers came in and sat down to eat. I had refilled my drink while they were waiting for their food and I'm sure saw my gun. When we got up to leave I put my jacket on and right away one of the troopers motions me over to their table and asked if I had a cpl. I answered yes but I didn't need it to OC (DOH! I was now CC) and told him I also had another firearm concealed (PM9 in pocket holster). He requested to see my cpl. Best I know I am required by law to show him as I was now CC. He looked at said I was ok then and I was on my way. Not sure why he decided to question me. Had I been CC only he would have never known and had I tucked my jacket behind my holster he would, in theory, had no reason to chat with me. I don't go out of my way to OC or CC it is just easier to carry OC. Kinda ticked me off but it was a very brief encounter.
    1. You were not situationally aware so you messed up
    2. He crooked his finger at you. This is not a detention, and if he's sitting eating, hat off, basically he's off duty. You allowed it to be a consensual encounter. Why didn't you wave and walk out the door, while unzipping your jacket (like you were still putting it on and adjusting it) and tucking it over your firearm. You are allowed to adjust your clothing in the milli-seconds of it being covered it does not become CC. (IANAL, so just a guess).
    3. You are also unaware of the regs of your CPL. Poor awareness
    4.
    An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol who is stopped by a police officer (traffic stop or otherwise) while in possession of a pistol shall immediately disclose to the police officer that he or she is carrying a concealed pistol either on their person or in their motor vehicle.

    Thus EVERY CPL holder in the restaurant should have come up and stood in LINE next to the two MSP officers, keeping them from eating dinner and making it a 45 minute 'showing you my CPL, officer, as required by law'.


    They all broke the law and should have had their guns confiscated and permits rescinded and charged $500
    State Civil Infraction - $500 fine and 6-month CPL license suspension.
    HTH.
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

  5. #5
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    Only 2 0r 3 years with a lifetime ban then. Seems fair.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Jonesville, Mi, ,
    Posts
    38
    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    1. You were not situationally aware so you messed up
    2. He crooked his finger at you. This is not a detention, and if he's sitting eating, hat off, basically he's off duty. You allowed it to be a consensual encounter. Why didn't you wave and walk out the door, while unzipping your jacket (like you were still putting it on and adjusting it) and tucking it over your firearm. You are allowed to adjust your clothing in the milli-seconds of it being covered it does not become CC. (IANAL, so just a guess).
    3. You are also unaware of the regs of your CPL. Poor awareness
    4.

    Thus EVERY CPL holder in the restaurant should have come up and stood in LINE next to the two MSP officers, keeping them from eating dinner and making it a 45 minute 'showing you my CPL, officer, as required by law'.


    They all broke the law and should have had their guns confiscated and permits rescinded and charged $500


    HTH.
    1. What was I unaware of? I knew I was now CC just didn't think of it in regards to his question till I started talking. A miss step yes. I corrected myself right away.
    2. I doubt he would have allowed me to walk away and I had my gun covered long enough to be considered concealed already. What's the point in making a BIG scene when it's there is no reason to. While it seemed casual the way it went down I am reasonably sure he would have made official.
    3. I am aware of the regs I believe. What is it you refer to?

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    You're fine OP. IMO you were not being stopped or detained, so you remained within the law, no need to disclose. It would have been redundant, that wouldnt have flown in court. Charges for failure to disclose would have been tossed out without hesitation.

    Hindsight, you should have asked if you were being stopped or detained. Use tact, dont be a jerk, but ask, that way you know where you stand with the officers.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Jonesville, Mi, ,
    Posts
    38
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    You're fine OP. IMO you were not being stopped or detained, so you remained within the law, no need to disclose. It would have been redundant, that wouldnt have flown in court. Charges for failure to disclose would have been tossed out without hesitation.

    Hindsight, you should have asked if you were being stopped or detained. Use tact, dont be a jerk, but ask, that way you know where you stand with the officers.
    IMO he made it "official" when he asked to see my CPL. Detained? Perhaps not but the law requires that I show the CPL when it's requested.

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    You took the safe route, I won't argue against that. You didnt do anything wrong, but there is a better way of doing it. Im just trying to be helpful and share what we have learned.

    An officer can ask you for your ID, as he might ask you if you saw this or that, or where to get the best pizza, it doesnt mean you're stopped or detained. This is why we teach wash, rinse, repeat. Its a sticky.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Jonesville, Mi, ,
    Posts
    38
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    You took the safe route, I won't argue against that. You didnt do anything wrong, but there is a better way of doing it. Im just trying to be helpful and share what we have learned.

    An officer can ask you for your ID, as he might ask you if you saw this or that, or where to get the best pizza, it doesnt mean you're stopped or detained. This is why we teach wash, rinse, repeat. Its a sticky.
    Point taken, I knew this would come up when I posted my story. Discussion is what we're here for.

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    AS a rule, if Im asked for ID, I'll give it. If Im told to give ID, unless legally required to do so, I won't.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157
    OP, you did right.

    (2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:

    (a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.

    (b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.
    Their is NO requirement for a "stop" in this section of the law. If you are carrying concealed, which you were, and the officer notices you carrying concealed, which he did, he can ask you to provide your CPL and ID which by law you must provide.

    If you are "stopped" while legally carrying concealed you then you must immediately voluntarily disclose.
    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 02-29-2012 at 12:47 PM.
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  13. #13
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    you then you must immediately voluntarily disclose.


    Bronson
    Oxymoron


  14. #14
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Portage, MI
    Posts
    1,490
    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post

    Thus EVERY CPL holder in the restaurant should have come up and stood in LINE next to the two MSP officers, keeping them from eating dinner and making it a 45 minute 'showing you my CPL, officer, as required by law'.
    They were not "stopped" in the restaurant. Just because you are around an officer does not mean you must inform, only when you are being "stopped". Sitting in the same restaurant as a LEO is not a "stop".
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Jonesville, Mi, ,
    Posts
    38
    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    They were not "stopped" in the restaurant. Just because you are around an officer does not mean you must inform, only when you are being "stopped". Sitting in the same restaurant as a LEO is not a "stop".
    Not a "stop" however the trooper requested my cpl and as I see it I was then required to show it.
    From the MSP web page......

    "Upon request, an individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a police officer:

    His or her license to carry a concealed pistol
    His or her driver license or personal identification card

    Failure to show CPL license and Michigan driver license or Michigan personal identification card when carrying a concealed pistol is a State Civil Infraction and $100.00 fine. "

    Says nothing about a "stop".

  16. #16
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Portage, MI
    Posts
    1,490
    Quote Originally Posted by gasgasmi View Post
    Not a "stop" however the trooper requested my cpl and as I see it I was then required to show it.
    From the MSP web page......

    "Upon request, an individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a police officer:

    His or her license to carry a concealed pistol
    His or her driver license or personal identification card

    Failure to show CPL license and Michigan driver license or Michigan personal identification card when carrying a concealed pistol is a State Civil Infraction and $100.00 fine. "

    Says nothing about a "stop".
    I was referring to the person who said that everyone in the restaurant carrying with a CPL would have to "get in line" to show CPL to the MSP there. You did what was legally required of you IMHO.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Jonesville, Mi, ,
    Posts
    38
    I know I'm OT just a bit here as to OC but I thought it was of interest that my combination of OC/CC bought me an encounter with LEO. I'm sure he was fishing a bit but didn't make it a huge thing and near as I can see didn't do anything really wrong just a bit off the wall IMO.

  18. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...ND%20concealed

    But, the officer cannot ask without RAS or PC. (cite needed) Seeing you carrying a gun is not cause to believe you are carrying concealed, even if he watched you conceal it. Does Schlotzky's make the majority of its income by alcohol served by the glass to be consumed on the premisis, or do they have a license to sell alcohol at all?

  19. #19
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157
    We've gone round and round about this. Carrying concealed is illegal unless you are licensed to do so. He watched the OP conceal, thereby RS for requesting to see a CPL has been met...and I'd bet a dozen doughnuts to whatever loose change you have in your pocket that the courts would agree.

    I know that you are going to counter with the "but but but the Supreme Court has said that a driver can't be stopped just to see if they are licensed so it should be the same for CPLs." I agree with you that it SHOULD be the same, but it isn't. It isn't because that decision only applies to that circumstance. Until a high court says that the same reasoning applies to gun carriers, it doesn't.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    What a sham, we have to convince the supreme court to hear a case, but not before an innocents life is ruined for exercising his/her rights, to have those rights which were written clearly, "interpreted" by "justices" who were appointed for their specific slant on those "interpretations" of those words. "Right of the people", and "to keep and bear arms", "and shall not be infringed".
    Last edited by stainless1911; 02-29-2012 at 03:21 PM.

  21. #21
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Okemos, MI
    Posts
    884
    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    He watched the OP conceal, thereby RS for requesting to see a CPL has been met.
    I agree with this. OP went from OC to CC right before the LEO's eyes.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
    Wheels

  22. #22
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    The constitution says that the right shall not be infringed. That includes regulating how you choose to exercise the right. If you choose to conceal like the criminals do, that is your right.

  23. #23
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    437
    The law is vague. One part is 'any person...stopped...(traffic stop or otherwise), shall'

    What if the LEO, elbow on table, waggles his little finger, saying nothing.

    In that event it just looks coy. I don't see this (on foot, him seated, hat off, on private property, off-call eating lunch) as a 'stop'.

    That's the problem with CPL disclosure laws. Michigan, Ohio, and a few other states, need to get rid of these laws.

    Look at it this way. Say you're a tree cutter and you're wearing plaid shirt, lumberjack attire and boots and you walk into the restaurant with a chain saw (a little one). Is a LEO gonna stop and ID you? (You're on foot because you live two houses over).

    NO! Yet a chainsaw is just as 'odd', lethal, dangerous as a firearm. (remember the 20 foot rule on a guy with a knife).
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Burton, MI
    Posts
    78
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Simple. He wanted to violate his oath by charging you with a felony instead of protecting your right to both keep and to bear arms. That would have sent you to prison where prison things would happen to you for around 5 years, you would be financially ruined, emotionally and socially destroyed, never be able to vote or be armed again, all because you are such a hardened and dangerous criminal who must be stopped.
    you can vote as a felon here in Michigan, you just can not vote while serving your sentence


    http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7...3989--,00.html


    Can someone convicted of a felony register and vote? Can a person confined in jail or prison register and vote?

    MCL 168.492a reads: "A person confined in a jail, who is otherwise a qualified elector, prior to trial or sentence may, upon request, register under section 504. The person shall be deemed a resident of the city, township, and address at which he resided before confinement. A person while confined in a jail after being convicted and sentenced shall not be eligible to register."

    MCL 168.758b reads: "A person who, in a court of this or another state or in a federal court, has been legally convicted and sentenced for a crime for which the penalty imposed is confinement in jail or prison shall not vote, offer to vote, attempt to vote, or be permitted to vote at an election while confined."

    Given the above restrictions, a Michigan resident confined in jail or prison that is awaiting arraignment or trial is eligible to register and vote. A Michigan resident who is serving a sentence in jail or prison after conviction cannot register or vote during his or her period of confinement. After a Michigan resident who is serving a sentence in jail or prison is released, he or she is free to participate in elections without restriction.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Troy, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,321
    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    I agree with this. OP went from OC to CC right before the LEO's eyes.
    why, a license is required to drive, but when i enter my vehicle i don't expect to be accosted by the police unless they have prior knowledge that i do not posses a driver's license. the same applies with a CPL. unless the officer has powers that allow him to mind meld or use the force and know whether or not I have a CPL or have RAS that a crime has been or is about to be committed, then he has no reason to ask for a CPL.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •