Odd LEO encounter in BC

gasgasmi · Feb 29, 2012

Was in Schlotzky's having supper after a visit to Southside in Battle Creek to shoot last night, do it all the time OC and never had a problem. I was OC a 1911 in a paddle holster. Two MSP troopers came in and sat down to eat. I had refilled my drink while they were waiting for their food and I'm sure saw my gun. When we got up to leave I put my jacket on and right away one of the troopers motions me over to their table and asked if I had a cpl. I answered yes but I didn't need it to OC (DOH! I was now CC) and told him I also had another firearm concealed (PM9 in pocket holster). He requested to see my cpl. Best I know I am required by law to show him as I was now CC. He looked at said I was ok then and I was on my way. Not sure why he decided to question me. Had I been CC only he would have never known and had I tucked my jacket behind my holster he would, in theory, had no reason to chat with me. I don't go out of my way to OC or CC it is just easier to carry OC. Kinda ticked me off but it was a very brief encounter.

stainless1911 · Feb 29, 2012

gasgasmi said:
Not sure why he decided to question me.

Simple. He wanted to violate his oath by charging you with a felony instead of protecting your right to both keep and to bear arms. That would have sent you to prison where prison things would happen to you for around 5 years, you would be financially ruined, emotionally and socially destroyed, never be able to vote or be armed again, all because you are such a hardened and dangerous criminal who must be stopped.

xmanhockey7 · Feb 29, 2012

stainless1911 said:
Simple. He wanted to violate his oath by charging you with a felony instead of protecting your right to both keep and to bear arms. That would have sent you to prison where prison things would happen to you for around 5 years, you would be financially ruined, emotionally and socially destroyed, never be able to vote or be armed again, all because you are such a hardened and dangerous criminal who must be stopped.

5 years is a max. If it was a first offense with a pretty clean record I don't see him being in for more than a couple years.

OP: You did exactly as you were supposed to. The officer didn't say anything until you did something that requires a license and in Michigan you must provide CPL and ID when carry concealed if the officer wants to see it.

(2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:
(a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol. (b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.

sawah · Feb 29, 2012

gasgasmi said:
Was in Schlotzky's having supper after a visit to Southside in Battle Creek to shoot last night, do it all the time OC and never had a problem. I was OC a 1911 in a paddle holster. Two MSP troopers came in and sat down to eat. I had refilled my drink while they were waiting for their food and I'm sure saw my gun. When we got up to leave I put my jacket on and right away one of the troopers motions me over to their table and asked if I had a cpl. I answered yes but I didn't need it to OC (DOH! I was now CC) and told him I also had another firearm concealed (PM9 in pocket holster). He requested to see my cpl. Best I know I am required by law to show him as I was now CC. He looked at said I was ok then and I was on my way. Not sure why he decided to question me. Had I been CC only he would have never known and had I tucked my jacket behind my holster he would, in theory, had no reason to chat with me. I don't go out of my way to OC or CC it is just easier to carry OC. Kinda ticked me off but it was a very brief encounter.

1. You were not situationally aware so you messed up
2. He crooked his finger at you. This is not a detention, and if he's sitting eating, hat off, basically he's off duty. You allowed it to be a consensual encounter. Why didn't you wave and walk out the door, while unzipping your jacket (like you were still putting it on and adjusting it) and tucking it over your firearm. You are allowed to adjust your clothing in the milli-seconds of it being covered it does not become CC. (IANAL, so just a guess).
3. You are also unaware of the regs of your CPL. Poor awareness
4.

An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol who is stopped by a police officer (traffic stop or otherwise) while in possession of a pistol shall immediately disclose to the police officer that he or she is carrying a concealed pistol either on their person or in their motor vehicle.

Thus EVERY CPL holder in the restaurant should have come up and stood in LINE next to the two MSP officers, keeping them from eating dinner and making it a 45 minute 'showing you my CPL, officer, as required by law'.

They all broke the law and should have had their guns confiscated and permits rescinded and charged $500

State Civil Infraction - $500 fine and 6-month CPL license suspension.

HTH.

stainless1911 · Feb 29, 2012

Only 2 0r 3 years with a lifetime ban then. Seems fair.

gasgasmi · Feb 29, 2012

sawah said:
1. You were not situationally aware so you messed up
2. He crooked his finger at you. This is not a detention, and if he's sitting eating, hat off, basically he's off duty. You allowed it to be a consensual encounter. Why didn't you wave and walk out the door, while unzipping your jacket (like you were still putting it on and adjusting it) and tucking it over your firearm. You are allowed to adjust your clothing in the milli-seconds of it being covered it does not become CC. (IANAL, so just a guess).
3. You are also unaware of the regs of your CPL. Poor awareness
4.

Thus EVERY CPL holder in the restaurant should have come up and stood in LINE next to the two MSP officers, keeping them from eating dinner and making it a 45 minute 'showing you my CPL, officer, as required by law'.

They all broke the law and should have had their guns confiscated and permits rescinded and charged $500

HTH.

1. What was I unaware of? I knew I was now CC just didn't think of it in regards to his question till I started talking. A miss step yes. I corrected myself right away.
2. I doubt he would have allowed me to walk away and I had my gun covered long enough to be considered concealed already. What's the point in making a BIG scene when it's there is no reason to. While it seemed casual the way it went down I am reasonably sure he would have made official.
3. I am aware of the regs I believe. What is it you refer to?

stainless1911 · Feb 29, 2012

You're fine OP. IMO you were not being stopped or detained, so you remained within the law, no need to disclose. It would have been redundant, that wouldnt have flown in court. Charges for failure to disclose would have been tossed out without hesitation.

Hindsight, you should have asked if you were being stopped or detained. Use tact, dont be a jerk, but ask, that way you know where you stand with the officers.

gasgasmi · Feb 29, 2012

stainless1911 said:
You're fine OP. IMO you were not being stopped or detained, so you remained within the law, no need to disclose. It would have been redundant, that wouldnt have flown in court. Charges for failure to disclose would have been tossed out without hesitation.

Hindsight, you should have asked if you were being stopped or detained. Use tact, dont be a jerk, but ask, that way you know where you stand with the officers.

IMO he made it "official" when he asked to see my CPL. Detained? Perhaps not but the law requires that I show the CPL when it's requested.

stainless1911 · Feb 29, 2012

You took the safe route, I won't argue against that. You didnt do anything wrong, but there is a better way of doing it. Im just trying to be helpful and share what we have learned.

An officer can ask you for your ID, as he might ask you if you saw this or that, or where to get the best pizza, it doesnt mean you're stopped or detained. This is why we teach wash, rinse, repeat. Its a sticky.

gasgasmi · Feb 29, 2012

stainless1911 said:
You took the safe route, I won't argue against that. You didnt do anything wrong, but there is a better way of doing it. Im just trying to be helpful and share what we have learned.

An officer can ask you for your ID, as he might ask you if you saw this or that, or where to get the best pizza, it doesnt mean you're stopped or detained. This is why we teach wash, rinse, repeat. Its a sticky.

Point taken, I knew this would come up when I posted my story. Discussion is what we're here for.

stainless1911 · Feb 29, 2012

AS a rule, if Im asked for ID, I'll give it. If Im told to give ID, unless legally required to do so, I won't.

Bronson · Feb 29, 2012

OP, you did right.

(2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:

(a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.

(b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.

Their is NO requirement for a "stop" in this section of the law. If you are carrying concealed, which you were, and the officer notices you carrying concealed, which he did, he can ask you to provide your CPL and ID which by law you must provide.

If you are "stopped" while legally carrying concealed you then you must immediately voluntarily disclose.

(3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

Bronson

stainless1911 · Feb 29, 2012

Bronson said:
you then you must immediately voluntarily disclose.

Bronson

Oxymoron

xmanhockey7 · Feb 29, 2012

sawah said:
Thus EVERY CPL holder in the restaurant should have come up and stood in LINE next to the two MSP officers, keeping them from eating dinner and making it a 45 minute 'showing you my CPL, officer, as required by law'.

They were not "stopped" in the restaurant. Just because you are around an officer does not mean you must inform, only when you are being "stopped". Sitting in the same restaurant as a LEO is not a "stop".

gasgasmi · Feb 29, 2012

xmanhockey7 said:
They were not "stopped" in the restaurant. Just because you are around an officer does not mean you must inform, only when you are being "stopped". Sitting in the same restaurant as a LEO is not a "stop".

Not a "stop" however the trooper requested my cpl and as I see it I was then required to show it.
From the MSP web page......

"Upon request, an individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a police officer:

His or her license to carry a concealed pistol
His or her driver license or personal identification card

Failure to show CPL license and Michigan driver license or Michigan personal identification card when carrying a concealed pistol is a State Civil Infraction and $100.00 fine. "

Says nothing about a "stop".

xmanhockey7 · Feb 29, 2012

gasgasmi said:
Not a "stop" however the trooper requested my cpl and as I see it I was then required to show it.
From the MSP web page......

"Upon request, an individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a police officer:

His or her license to carry a concealed pistol
His or her driver license or personal identification card

Failure to show CPL license and Michigan driver license or Michigan personal identification card when carrying a concealed pistol is a State Civil Infraction and $100.00 fine. "

Says nothing about a "stop".

I was referring to the person who said that everyone in the restaurant carrying with a CPL would have to "get in line" to show CPL to the MSP there. You did what was legally required of you IMHO.

gasgasmi · Feb 29, 2012

I know I'm OT just a bit here as to OC but I thought it was of interest that my combination of OC/CC bought me an encounter with LEO. I'm sure he was fishing a bit but didn't make it a huge thing and near as I can see didn't do anything really wrong just a bit off the wall IMO.

stainless1911 · Feb 29, 2012

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(kx...25f&query=on&highlight=disclose AND concealed

But, the officer cannot ask without RAS or PC. (cite needed) Seeing you carrying a gun is not cause to believe you are carrying concealed, even if he watched you conceal it. Does Schlotzky's make the majority of its income by alcohol served by the glass to be consumed on the premisis, or do they have a license to sell alcohol at all?

Bronson · Feb 29, 2012

We've gone round and round about this. Carrying concealed is illegal unless you are licensed to do so. He watched the OP conceal, thereby RS for requesting to see a CPL has been met...and I'd bet a dozen doughnuts to whatever loose change you have in your pocket that the courts would agree.

I know that you are going to counter with the "but but but the Supreme Court has said that a driver can't be stopped just to see if they are licensed so it should be the same for CPLs." I agree with you that it SHOULD be the same, but it isn't. It isn't because that decision only applies to that circumstance. Until a high court says that the same reasoning applies to gun carriers, it doesn't.

Bronson

stainless1911 · Feb 29, 2012

What a sham, we have to convince the supreme court to hear a case, but not before an innocents life is ruined for exercising his/her rights, to have those rights which were written clearly, "interpreted" by "justices" who were appointed for their specific slant on those "interpretations" of those words. "Right of the people", and "to keep and bear arms", "and shall not be infringed".

Odd LEO encounter in BC

Regular Member

Banned

Regular Member

Regular Member

Banned

Regular Member

Banned

Regular Member

Banned

Regular Member

Banned

Regular Member

Banned

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Banned

Regular Member

Banned