Two Things to Live By

ManInBlack said:

I prefer to speak of "natural rights" when in mixed or unknown company, because you don't get the anti-religion resistance and can focus on the rights themselves.

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Thank God it's not because you wouldn't want to push your beliefs on others!

HandyHamlet said:

Thank God it's not because you wouldn't want to push your beliefs on others!

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Merely referencing God isn't pushing my beliefs, anymore than a person merely mentioning he is vegetarian is pushing his.

ManInBlack said:

Merely referencing God isn't pushing my beliefs, anymore than a person merely mentioning he is vegetarian is pushing his.

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Like the OP right?

HandyHamlet said:

Like the OP right?

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The OP did more than reference. That shirt implied that the Bible should be taught in schools, which is advocating for a policy position, aka pushing his beliefs.

ManInBlack said:

The OP did more than reference. That shirt implied that the Bible should be taught in schools, which is advocating for a policy position, aka pushing his beliefs.

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Yah, right. This thing is on and everyone can read what you type.

...because you don't get the anti-religion resistance.

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2A

HandyHamlet said:

Yah, right. This thing is on and everyone can read what you type.

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Yes, and this exactly what I'm talking about. I simply mention the G-word, and you get as offended as an NAACP member who just got called the N-word. Amazing.

OC-moto450r said:

I wonder how Atheist's view our "God" given rights in the Bill of Rights. If they don't believe in God how can they argue that government (man) can't take them away?

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I'm going to sidestep the religious debate here and just deal with the contents of the documents in question.

I'm not a Constitutional scholar by any means, but the last time I read the Bill of Rights I didn't find any mention of "God given rights" there was simply a list of rights. In fact, the only place I can remember a reference to a higher power endowing us with our rights is in the Declaration of Independence, which is a very important document but not one that in any way defines the laws under which our government is obligated to operate under.

ManInBlack said:

Yes, and this exactly what I'm talking about. I simply mention the G-word, and you get as offended as an NAACP member who just got called the N-word. Amazing.

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Embarrassing and pathetic. And boring. How about next time you discuss the Constitution you don't bring up "god" out of respect for what others may/may not believe? And not out of fear you can't convert them?

Elycion said:

I'm going to sidestep the religious debate here and just deal with the contents of the documents in question.

I'm not a Constitutional scholar by any means, but the last time I read the Bill of Rights I didn't find any mention of "God given rights" there was simply a list of rights. In fact, the only place I can remember a reference to a higher power endowing us with our rights is in the Declaration of Independence, which is a very important document but not one that in any way defines the laws under which our government is obligated to operate under.

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I too am no scholar. But ya might try the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers.

I suspect there is reference to our rights coming from a higher authority. Or am I off-base?

One example:http://www.wepin.com/articles/afp/afp84.html Antifederalist No. 84 ON THE LACK OF A BILL OF RIGHTS

If we may collect the sentiments of the people of America, from their own most solemn declarations, they hold this truth as self-evident, that all men are by nature free. No one man, therefore, or any class of men, have a right, by the law of nature, or of God, to assume or exercise authority over their fellows.

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And a couple of other quotes:

God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it. – Daniel Webster (1834)

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Resistance to tyranny is service to God. – James Madison

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varminter22 said:

I too am no scholar. But ya might try the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers.

I suspect there is reference to our rights coming from a higher authority. Or am I off-base?

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The Federalist Papers aren't legal documents, they were pro-Constitution propaganda. Likewise, the Anti-Federalist papers were anti-Constitution propaganda. They're not relevant in a discussion of whether or not the Constitution contains language stating that rights are bestowed by a divine power. I've never inferred that the authors of the Constitution didn't believe their rights came from a supreme being, I merely point out that to the best of my knowledge the Constitution itself makes no reference to human rights being dependent on a divinity.

Were the founding fathers religious?

I have had this debate over and over again. It starts out just like the first post then spirals into a link off of quotes from the founding fathers that could make the case for both sides. Then the religious will post scripture followed by the athiest or anti-theist posting some Christopher Hitchens. Both sides get offended, and for what? Arguing over semantics! Natural Rights vs God given Rights? Just about everyone here agrees and will go to sometimes extremes to defend and preserve our Rights especially when in regards to firearms. We should all be worried about losing our Rights and preserving them for our posterity.

I believe the founding fathers felt that religion is a choice that we all should have. To each his own. Christianity is NOT my personal religion. I do have friends that are christians. I believe in their right to follow their own faith. I don't necessarily beileve it should be taught in public schools. That's what places of worship and church based schools are for.

I also believe the best place to learn about guns is at home, or with organiozations that specialize in it. Trust me, my sons' teachers are idiots. One of them told my son that I was breaking the law, and I needed a license to carry a gun. I don't want them teaching them gun safety, that's my job. I'm the Daddy!

Just my opinion.

2A

Wow I didn't intend quite this shitstorm either.

My only point is that the Tshirt implies that to be "American" that you must learn the bible. There are lots of good Americans who are not Christians.

I'm glad that neither subject is taught in school.

Elycion said:

The Federalist Papers aren't legal documents, they were pro-Constitution propaganda. Likewise, the Anti-Federalist papers were anti-Constitution propaganda. They're not relevant in a discussion of whether or not the Constitution contains language stating that rights are bestowed by a divine power. I've never inferred that the authors of the Constitution didn't believe their rights came from a supreme being, I merely point out that to the best of my knowledge the Constitution itself makes no reference to human rights being dependent on a divinity.

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As others have said, I don't think anyone intended for this thread to go astray.

I do take exception to the "propaganda" comment.

The Federalist Papers are a series of 85 articles or essays promoting the ratification of the United States Constitution written by Alexander Hamilton, James Madison and John Jay.

The Anti-Federalist Papers are a collection of articles, written in opposition to the ratification of the 1787 United States Constitution.

Legal documents? No. But very well written essays that give enormous insight.

shades of numerous religious zealots, et al., it always amazes me when a person who has a PhD in Rethoric and Public Address and is completely immersed in Church of Christ dogma can, through the marvels of playing on religious zealot bible thumping emotionalism produce, w/o critical peer review, such unmitgated bs as miller is slinging and to have ppl believe it as if it was from Moses himself is flat out what is wrong w/our country.

remember, the pilgrims (founders of our country per se) left Great Britian due to their belief they needed their own brand of religion especially when King James came to power in 1604 and the Church of England again began to root out, prosecute, and jail those who openly believed different dogma so the Church needed to be purified of its false ceremonies, non-Scriptural teachings, and superstitious rituals. Across England, small groups began to separate themselves from their persecuting Churches, to form their own secret congregations. i am not going to get into specifics on what religious issues caused the pilgrims to leave but you can read about it here: http://www.mayflowerhistory.com/History/religion.php

and the propoganda being slung is quote: My only point is that the Tshirt implies that to be "American" that you must learn the bible. unquote

horse manure!!!

wabbit

PS: this gentleman considers himself an American, who has by personal choice read the Bible, The Noble Qur'an, Book of Hindu, Book of Mormon, as well as studied Paganism, etc., so when my feet fail to touch the ground some morning, i will discuss my beliefs w/whomever or whatever manifests itself and then and only then discuss my eternity with them.

pps: and IMO you knew exactly what firestorm your posting would produce.

Okay wabbit, I'll bite...

In what way does a Tshirt stating "two things every American should know how to use" with a picture of a handgun and a bible not imply that to be an American you should be Christian. Is there another message thai is whooshing me here?

varminter22 said:

I do take exception to the "propaganda" comment.

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I can't see why. Propaganda by definition is literature or media that attempts to influence people to behave in a certain manner. Both the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers were written for exactly such a purpose. Just because the term is often used to describe misleading or false information doesn't make it any less applicable when the content is merely opinionated and not intentionally deceptive.

At any rate, with my intentions clarified I think I'll bow out of this off-the-rails thread. Folks on both sides of the issues are starting to show up just looking for things to get offended about.