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Thread: First Annoying Encounter

  1. #1
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    First Annoying Encounter

    I haven't been OC'ing very long. I just finally purchased a handgun (been wanting one for ages.) I did do my research into what is legal and what is not regarding open carry since there is no point in me getting my license to CC right now. (Deploy in a couple weeks, only have 4-5 months when I get back before I go back home to MO.)

    I was not surprised about the number of looks I've received since carrying and only slightly surprised by the amount of questions (some of them beyond stupid.) And, even with the stares, comments, and - at times - rude comments and gestures only a couple things have irratated me. One is the parents that assume that since I carry a firearm, I'm an evil person and quickly (and loudly) run away with their children. If I was a criminal, why the hell would I carry it on my hip, in plain sight, with the safety on? Doesn't make much sense to me.

    The second was something that, until today, I've been lucky enough to have not encountered.

    Went to Fazoli's on Cheyenne Mountain in the Springs as was told some ******** story by the manager about not being able to carry in their store. Now, keep in mind this is the fifth or sixth time I've carried in the same store, and at least two of those times the same manager was in there. Today, she decides to - not so politely - tell me "For future referance, you can't really carry a gun into Fazoli's" or something along those lines. The "for future referance" and "carry a gun" are the two parts that stuck out due to her attitude at the time. My response was "Well, according to Colorado law you can open carry anywhere but schools, government property, Denver, or an establishment which has posted such. Plus, I've been in here before and nobody has ever said anything." Her response - "Well, nobody wanted to say anything to you but I just had to."

    What the mother-f*^%!#@ h@#! ?! Do I look like a criminal? Have I ever been even the slightest bit rude to you, your coworkers, or another customer? Why didn't they want to say anything? All I wanted to do was enjoy my dinner with my roommate and she had to go sour my mood.

    Anyway, I would first like to apologize for the rant. It is just extremely agitating at times how you can be as polite as possible to someone and they turn and rudely accuse you of something you are not, and that's how she came off to me.

    Secondly, regarding legality. One thing I could never find in my research prior to open carrying, and it never even crossed my mind. In a situation like that, what am I legally required to do? She didn't say or imply that I needed to leave the establishment, just said that I can't in the future. But here is where I get confused and I do not wish to push the law. Let's say I were to go there again (which I don't plan on it) would I have to leave my firearm if there still is no sign posted or, if nothing is posted, am I still legally correct carrying it into the store?

    Thank you, and again, sorry for the lengthy rant. I'm a newb. Haha.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Ain't it funny how they Always seem to wait until you've finished patronizing their establishment (paid your money) until they decide it's important enough to approach? Write a respectful letter to Fazoli's corp and mention how poorly you were treated.

    What are you required to do?
    Nothing, unless you are asked to leave or specifically asked not to come back (possibly.)
    Had you refused to leave then it could easily have been seen as criminal trespass.

    What would I do? It depends on how addicted I am to Fazoli's (I love their breadsticks), I'd probably go back. If there is a problem just as "Are you refusing me service and asking me to leave?"
    Get a name, or at least try to narrow down who the person could be described as and then raise a little helllloooo with that person's superiors. Most corporations like money enough not to turn it away UNLESS you are causing a disruption.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-04-2012 at 11:46 PM.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    18-4-502. First degree criminal trespass.
    A person commits the crime of first degree criminal trespass if such person knowingly and unlawfully enters or remains in a dwelling of another or if such person enters any motor vehicle with intent to commit a crime therein. First degree criminal trespass is a class 5 felony.

    18-4-503. Second degree criminal trespass.
    (1) A person commits the crime of second degree criminal trespass if such person:
    (a) Unlawfully enters or remains in or upon the premises of another which are enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders or are fenced; or
    (b) Knowingly and unlawfully enters or remains in or upon the common areas of a hotel, motel, condominium, or apartment building; or
    (c) Knowingly and unlawfully enters or remains in a motor vehicle of another.
    (2) Second degree criminal trespass is a class 3 misdemeanor....

    18-4-504. Third degree criminal trespass.
    (1) A person commits the crime of third degree criminal trespass if such person unlawfully enters or remains in or upon premises of another.
    (2) Third degree criminal trespass is a class 1 petty offense, ....
    ===== probably the only applicable statute.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-04-2012 at 11:53 PM.

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    Must have been in the water today. No one said anything but I did have a whole family jockeying for position to get a good long glance at my weapon today.

    Sounds like you'll be heading over at about the same time as me. We'll have to grab dinner or lunch and make an impromptu meet of it.

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    Falls,

    That's kind of what I figured. I never did think about writing them but I may, if I have the time between packing and cleaning, have to do that. Even at that, I'll have plenty of time while I'm over there to type or write something up.

    Quote Originally Posted by RFrampton View Post
    Must have been in the water today. No one said anything but I did have a whole family jockeying for position to get a good long glance at my weapon today.

    Sounds like you'll be heading over at about the same time as me. We'll have to grab dinner or lunch and make an impromptu meet of it.
    Well, RF, if by impromptu you mean tomorrow or tuesday I'm down. Wife is coming back up to visit for a bit before I go though, so Wednesday on is off... I'll be a little preoccupied. lol. Who are you with?

    I had a guy at Wal-Mart once ask me what the kids did when they saw it... funniest thing so far. Kids just look, adults stare and get scared for no reason. Wait... the funniest was the middle-aged guy (Chapel Hills Wal-Mart) that ran into the side of the door because he kept staring.
    Last edited by k1ng0fb0r3d0m; 03-05-2012 at 12:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k1ng0fb0r3d0m View Post
    One is the parents that assume that since I carry a firearm, I'm an evil person and quickly (and loudly) run away with their children.
    Loudly run away? Wow. That sounds weird for the Springs. Any more details on those experiences in the short time you've been OCing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    Loudly run away? Wow. That sounds weird for the Springs. Any more details on those experiences in the short time you've been OCing?
    The loudly wasn't referring to yelling and screaming or anything.

    Example:

    Went to the Wal-Mart off Platte today. Stepped out of the driver's seat to go in (an '07 Chevy Cobalt with another guy and a 6 year old, I must be horrible) as a couple and their kids walked behind the car. The (presumably) mother goes "OMG, Get away!" to her kids. The funny part is the dad goes "What? That legal" and kept strolling as his wife drug two of their kids along. lol. (I'm exaggerating with drug.) Also had the hostess at Olive Garden (across from Citadel Mall) say "Why do you carry a gun?" I answered politely and she quickly walked away. (Not throwing a fit, just seemed nervous.) I've heard a few "What the f***" comments. There have been a few others that I can't recall. Mostly just stares, mumblings, and sometimes very hurried service.

    The scariest was the kid that snuck up behind me yelled "Cool!" and tried to grab it. Smacked his hand pretty hard, but I don't feel bad. Also the only time I put my hand on it in public (except the couple times I thought the safety might've gotten bumped.)

    The best comment though was the older man at Wal-Mart today (yes, I frequent Wal-Mart). Had a nice conversation that ended up leading to both his collection of firearms, his time in the service, and more while standing in line. All because he was curious as to what I was carrying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k1ng0fb0r3d0m View Post
    The (presumably) mother goes "OMG, Get away!" to her kids.
    Quote Originally Posted by k1ng0fb0r3d0m View Post
    The scariest was the kid that snuck up behind me yelled "Cool!" and tried to grab it. Smacked his hand pretty hard, but I don't feel bad.
    Ugh. Parents. Get away where? Is getting too close going to send out an energy field or something? Is running crazily going to escape a stray bullet? I don't expect that most people drill with their kids on code words to seek cover *cough*, but something better than "GET AWAY!" surely. And that you were already with another kid? What did she think you were? The Pied Piper? Did you have a flute sticking out of your pocket?

    And what parent didn't teach their kid better than to grab at a weapon? I ranted in here previously about a young teen who grabbed a spear out of my kit on a group camping trip and proceeded to remove the scabbard without asking. Didn't seem to realize he had done something "bad".

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    Quote Originally Posted by k1ng0fb0r3d0m View Post
    And, even with the stares, comments, and - at times - rude comments and gestures only a couple things have irratated me. One is the parents that assume that since I carry a firearm, I'm an evil person and quickly (and loudly) run away with their children. If I was a criminal, why the hell would I carry it on my hip, in plain sight, with the safety on? Doesn't make much sense to me.
    Howdy Amigo!
    First, please permit me to thank you for your serive to our nation. I surely do admire folks who make that commitment! Speaks very well of folks who take on the uniform of service and put their citizenship directly on the line! Much obliged to you for that.

    Now, I haven't gone with you anywhere, and wonder about your comportment while carrying. The reason I say this is because I have never had rude comments, or gestures, much less anybody running away quickly or loudly. Apart from a few (and I mean really darn few) folks who will openly stare at my sidearm, I haven't had much notice paid to the fact I'm armed. Most folks who know me will attest to the fact that I am really outgoing and possibly gregarious. I don't seem to elicit the sort of responses you evidently do. So what's up with that, I wonder?

    That being said, I have had some questions asked but always politely (even the stupid questions). I simply try to serve as a good ambassador for open carry and return answers politely and courteously (especially the stupid ones). The primary question I get is usually "are you law enforcement?" My answer to that is usually "No (sir, ma'am, undecided), I am a law abiding citizen who has chosen to exercise my right to carry a sidearm for my protection, for defense of my loved ones and neighbors, and for your protection as well should it come to that." Some folks leave it at that, others will probe with additional questions. The better I can answer those questions, the better I can share information to educate another citizen about open carry and the nature of folks who embrace it.

    The one time I had a questionable encounter was at WalMart, and I had just checked out my purchase and was leaving the checkstand. A really large fellow suddenly loomed up before me, looking for all the world like a lineman for the Broncos. He must have stood 6'6" or better, and probably weighed well over 300 pounds. He struck an imposing figure as he positioned himself directly in my path and asked "Sir, do you have a permit to carry that weapon?" I smiled at him and responded, "Certainly I do. It is called the 2nd Amendment of the United States Constitution, together with the Colorado Constitution, article 2, sections 3 and 13!" The man's face had been set with a stern appearance, but with my reply, broke into a wide grin as he stuck out a really huge hand to shake mine! "Great answer!" he replied. "I carry mine right here" he said patting his appendix area. From there we had a really nifty conversation (albeit brief) about open carry and the fact that anyone legally entitled to buy a firearm may also openely carry that firearm. At the end of the day, he learned something he did not know, and I feel I served my purpose of being a positive ambassador for open carry.

    I believe that there is a great deal of responsibility attached to open carry. Not only regarding the carry of a handgun for legitimate self defense, but also in how we carry ourselves. As I mentioned earlier, folks who know me will attest that I am a friendly, outgoing and possibly gregarious fellow. Then again, there are some that will claim I am verbose, but I don't put much stock in those rumors. Point being, I try to send out a positive vibe and do not experience the sort of things you've referred to here. I don't know that we've met, and in the long run, it ain't likely we have. So I would be hard pressed to even make a guess at why your experience differs from mine. Maybe we might agree to hang out together for an afternoon and run around town to see what happens. I dunno. I just don't get the same experience and I carry everywhere, at all times, under all circumstances, except while on my day job.

    Then again, I have a remarkable penchant for ignoring folks who might manifest negativity toward me and simply go about my business paying them little mind.

    As for the attempted gun grab, I've never had that sort of experience either, but I believe I'd have more than slap the kid's hand away. I'd likely have demanded to talk with his parents, or possibly even called the cops, depending on severity of the situation. Not having been there as it happened, likely a talk with his parents would suffice.

    Best of luck, and stay safe out there!
    Mel

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    I'm cuurently typing a response on my phone so I'm going to try to keep this short.

    I think that most of it boils down to wthe areas I frequent. I have never had such problems before carrying, and like I said, I try to be as polite as possible regardless of what I am doing or carrying. I don't exactly live in the greatest area of town and, as with most people, stay close to home for errands. You did raise a valid point and I will Ppay more attention and see if there is anything I can do. The more I think about it though the more I realize that every incident has happened around where I live. (Citadel Mall, Olympic Center area.)

    I would have loved to talk to the kids parents after it happened... but who knows where they were. I was about to ask the kid and he took off running and disappeared. Thats the Wal-Mart I frequent. Watched a kid stealing once and told his mom, she looked at me like I was crazy and put it back on the shelf. (This was before I OC'd.)

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    I was in that same store on saturday. when an obiously homeless man who smelled horrid of alcohol came up to our table and just sat down next to a female friend of mine. and very quietly asked us for money. when my buddy politely told him we wern't going to be giving him any money he put his leg on his knee. not ready to leave our table. Then my buddy bluntly told him we were leaving (and therefore so was he) he got up and went to ANOTHER TABLE where he grabbed a chair from another table and sat down to pester them.

    The Management did not appear to be doing anything about this. But proceeded to harass you about your gun. Seriously? That is unacceptable.

    Our situation could have very quickly escalated to a point where self defense could have become an issue.

    Personally im never returning to that store.

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    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Write a respectful letter to Fazoli's corp and mention how poorly you were treated.
    Do this. I had a similar incident in a local grocery store. I wrote a letter (via the company website) and the issue was resolved very quickly.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Kind of surprised. Have never had a problem OCing in the COS area, but then I'm a lot older than you. If you are asked to leave and don't, you are trespassing. You were not. There are anti-gun nuts everywhere, of course. You just happened to run into the few in El Paso County it seems.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    I would suggest always asking any manager of a franchised business, "Is that official (insert company) policy, or are you overriding it and dictating your own? I'll be writing a letter to your corporate office seeking clarification on (insert business) official policy and your request that I spend my money at your competitors If I don't like it."
    Sounds like a good time for a local OC outing to Fazoli's. If anyone in my area ever gets asked to leave a non-posted business, I always make sure to OC to the exact same store that they got kicked out of as soon as possible. Make 'em kick 100 of us out. Make 'em kick 10 of us out a day.

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    Pheone,

    Now that I would have spoken to management about. Not only could that be a potential safety hazard (though I'd be more worried about him bugging the wrong person than him getting aggressive), but it's just plain nasty. I don't want an unbathed person sitting next to me when I'm trying to eat. I would say I'm glad I won't be going back fo a while... but I like Fazoli's. lol

    Gunslinger,

    Another valid point. I don't know how old you are but I'm only 23 and, thanks to this completely shaven thing, don't even look that.

    I also want to say one thing that I don't think I've stated yet. Overall, I've had more positive experiences than negative by far. I was expecting a lot more negative experiences when I first decided to OC than I have received. There have been some people that have asked some genuine questions and I have, to the best of my ability, shared what I can.

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by k1ng0fb0r3d0m View Post
    I've heard a few "What the f***" comments. There have been a few others that I can't recall.
    At the state fair this past fall, I was walking in a big crowd, when I overheard a 20-something white-trash, wigger degenerate say to his friend, "Holy ****! Better not **** with that guy!"

    I wanted to tell him that he shouldn't be "****ing" with anyone at all and to pull his damn pants up, but I just ignored him and thought to myself, "All things considered, not too bad. After all, that's the reaction I hope to inspire in the bad guys."

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    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    Perception is 95% of reality. The rebirth of OC is occurring within an environment in which generations of citizens have little or no experience from which to draw.

    We are in essence - "pioneers" of a sort. People in public constantly "scan" for deviations from the "norm" - even though it may be subconsciously. Whereas they are conditioned to observe "law enforcement" types openly wearing a holstered weapon - any indication that you may NOT be "officially authorized" (law enforcement) will likely threaten their comfort zone.

    This is why I think it is prudent to present one's self in public in a manner, posture, and "attitude" that offers assurance to the general public that we are in fact "authorized" - whether it be within the perceived stereotype of their scope of comprehension- or the constitutionally authorized context that we understand.

    Those of us who do not experience problems probably have adopted a manner of presenting ourselves that projects an image of "authorized" status.

    Until OC is once again generally accepted in our society, the practice may require the application of effective "marketing" techniques.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rushcreek2 View Post
    This is why I think it is prudent to present one's self in public in a manner, posture, and "attitude" that offers assurance to the general public that we are in fact "authorized" - whether it be within the perceived stereotype of their scope of comprehension- or the constitutionally authorized context that we understand.

    Those of us who do not experience problems probably have adopted a manner of presenting ourselves that projects an image of "authorized" status.

    Until OC is once again generally accepted in our society, the practice may require the application of effective "marketing" techniques.
    I have long hair and a beard (well, currently a western droopy mustache because it's March). To my knowledge, I've never had a police officer called on me because of my OC, never been hassled by a cop, and never had a truly argumentative or negative encounter with a fellow citizen. That must be the constitutional authorization you were talking about

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    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    Due to variations in individual projected profile factors such as an age, demeanor, disposition, style of dress, comportment, and overall public perception being consistent with the expected "norm" - some will experience problems, and some will not.

    It is the challenge before of each of us to address our own unique "fit" into our respective cultural/geographic societal mix - that determines whether we succeed or fail in advancing the OC cause.

    To suggest that constitutional authority alone will serve as a "pass" for public acceptance of OC in the public square , given the contemporary universe of emotions regarding firearms, is like setting out to "square dance" at a rock concert.

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    "Now that I would have spoken to management about. Not only could that be a potential safety hazard (though I'd be more worried about him bugging the wrong person than him getting aggressive), but it's just plain nasty. I don't want an unbathed person sitting next to me when I'm trying to eat. I would say I'm glad I won't be going back fo a while... but I like Fazoli's. lol"

    Our Biggest concern was when he sat down he trapped our female friend in. Most of my experience with drunk people usually involves someone starting a fight or attacking someone else. Not all but most. " Come on man just punch me as hard as you can" tends to turn into a brawl.

    Management did catch on after the 3rd table he'd moved too, Well before we managed to help my friend regain her composure. Otherwise i was going to go to management.

    Just figured i'd toss my .02 cents in about the management of that store. And maybe i'll just find a different store to go to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k1ng0fb0r3d0m View Post
    I was not surprised about the number of looks I've received since carrying and only slightly surprised by the amount of questions (some of them beyond stupid.) And, even with the stares, comments, and - at times - rude comments and gestures only a couple things have irratated me. One is the parents that assume that since I carry a firearm, I'm an evil person and quickly (and loudly) run away with their children.
    Are you sure you're living in Colorado Springs, Colorado?

    The reason I ask is that I've been OCing here in Colorado Springs, CO now for two years, and while I occasionally get an odd look, it's rare. I've never been stared at or received a rude comment or gesture. Parents do not quickly run away with their children, even when I walk into IHOP when it's packed with families on a Saturday morning.

    I've OC'd to dozens of restaurants, all over downtown Colorado Springs, and have sat on a bench in Acacia Park and watched my son play in the fountain for more than an hour while carrying on conversations with mothers and their kids. I've strolled up and down the streets of Manitou Springs amidst out-of-town crowds. That was one of two times I received a stare, but they quickly recovered and asked, "Is that legal?" after which we had a short but pleasant conversation about OC vs CC, and how 43 states in our Union support open carry.

    While many people have asked me a lot of questions, no one has ever asked me a stupid question, much less "beyond stupid," although I have heard a number of ignorant statements. One of my favorite involved a professor at Webster University, who said "Carrying firearms in an institution of higher learning in Colorado is illegal." He said this in response to a conversation among some of us shortly before class began. As did some of the other students, I CC'd while working through my masters program. I checked the student handbook, their website, all entrances to the campus, and the student bulletin board in the hallway. None of these locations carried any notice whatsoever that said firearms were prohibited either on the campus or in the classroom. So, commensurate with Colorado State Law, I continued to OC throughout the program.

    Went to Fazoli's on Cheyenne Mountain in the Springs as was told some ******** story by the manager about not being able to carry in their store. Now, keep in mind this is the fifth or sixth time I've carried in the same store, and at least two of those times the same manager was in there. Today, she decides to - not so politely - tell me "For future referance, you can't really carry a gun into Fazoli's" or something along those lines. The "for future referance" and "carry a gun" are the two parts that stuck out due to her attitude at the time. My response was "Well, according to Colorado law you can open carry anywhere but schools, government property, Denver, or an establishment which has posted such. Plus, I've been in here before and nobody has ever said anything." Her response - "Well, nobody wanted to say anything to you but I just had to."
    As Fazoli's is a privately-owned business, she is within her right to deny you entry or ask you to leave if you're already inside. If she did not specifically ask you to leave, however, you were not trespassing.

    Do I look like a criminal? Have I ever been even the slightest bit rude to you, your coworkers, or another customer? Why didn't they want to say anything?
    It has nothing to do with the way you look or your behavior. In some people's minds, gun=bad. As for customers, the reason they didn't say anything is because they have no authority to ask you to leave. The owner, manager, or an employee, however, does have that authority. The vast majority of people here in Colorado Springs are smarter than that, though occasionally you'll run across one of the idiots who will never pass a rationality test.

    All I wanted to do was enjoy my dinner with my roommate and she had to go sour my mood.
    I've found the only time anything sours my mood is when I let it. I take situations such as yours and use them as opportunities to share a few nuggets of wisdom, such as "criminals do not open carry" and "as an honest, law-abiding citizen, I take pride in my civic duty to myself and others by exercising my Constitutional right to keep and bear arms in defense of myself and my community." If the clue bird can't land on their shoulder because it's getting a wave-off, I'll write both the manager and HQ a letter. If the clue bird gets another wave-off, I'll enter their store's information in Friend or Foe, print out a copy of all the green businesses surrounding their red one, and send it to them.

    Secondly, regarding legality. One thing I could never find in my research prior to open carrying, and it never even crossed my mind. In a situation like that, what am I legally required to do? She didn't say or imply that I needed to leave the establishment, just said that I can't in the future. But here is where I get confused and I do not wish to push the law. Let's say I were to go there again (which I don't plan on it) would I have to leave my firearm if there still is no sign posted or, if nothing is posted, am I still legally correct carrying it into the store?
    Just because someone once told you to leave a store, that doesn't mean you can't go back at a later date. Management changes, and you don't know whether she was the manager, a shift supervisor, or just an employee. She didn't let you know if that's official store policy or just her policy.

    If it's posted, I'd leave it in the car or go someplace else. If it's not, carry on!
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    With all the people staring and commenting, what and how are you carrying?

    Thanks for your service, and good luck on the deployment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post

    It has nothing to do with the way you look or your behavior.
    I have to take exception with this comment. OCing in many people's eyes is 'unusual' to say the least. If a person is perceived in some way, shape, or form to be a threat AND they are OCing, it WILL alter their perceptions and responses. I think I made a comment a while back about how individual skin color, lots of tattoos, and any other obvious physical traits that make a person stand out do cause people to pre-judge, if that judgement is negative AND they have a gun on them. . . . . .

    Perhaps I've never had any issues because I look like a hobbit with a grey beard? On that note, I think I'll run off and register the domain name hobbitswithguns.com

    Bill

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    Nashville, Tennessee, United States
    Posts
    592
    Quote Originally Posted by bogidu View Post
    I have to take exception with this comment. OCing in many people's eyes is 'unusual' to say the least. If a person is perceived in some way, shape, or form to be a threat AND they are OCing, it WILL alter their perceptions and responses. I think I made a comment a while back about how individual skin color, lots of tattoos, and any other obvious physical traits that make a person stand out do cause people to pre-judge, if that judgement is negative AND they have a gun on them. . . . . .

    Perhaps I've never had any issues because I look like a hobbit with a grey beard? On that note, I think I'll run off and register the domain name hobbitswithguns.com

    Bill
    Will Lenord Nemoy sing your site's theme song?

    Sent from my M865 using Tapatalk

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