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Open Carry in the news KHQ interview with Jeff Hayes

hadji

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
122
Location
Spokane
That's a very good point there. The city is forbidden to ban firearms, and the loophole to that, a private entity leasing/renting the space having a rule against firearms (mandated by the city as a condition of renting/leasing) wouldn't apply to a mere license, since it is (supposedly) the temporary transfer of ownership rights that makes a private property type firearm ban legal on what would otherwise be city property. (emphasis added)



Difdi:

You have a good grasp on the situation, and the implications of the wording.

This wording, and its implications, will likely not be needed,
but it is an additional vector should the city attorney provide an unfavorable opinion.
That would be unfortunate, but not unrecoverable.

If we get into a war of definitions and intent on the statutes themselves,
we may be able to appeal to the likes of
Stoh Brewery Co. v. Department of Revenue,
104 Wn. App. 235, 240, 15 P.3d 692, rev. denied, 144 Wn.2d 1002 (2001),
a statute should be interpreted according to its plain and unambiguous language,
and the Department “[should] glean the legislative intent from the words of the statute itself…”.



Then the argument could be that they are trying to enforce a law that has been repealed!

WA's preemption law goes further than to say the city can't create such a law, it specifically REPEALS any law that violates said preemption.

Right Wing Wacko:
You are correct. Since the law is unconstitutional, RCW 9.41.290 specifically repeals it,
in the last sentence of that paragraph.

But the point will be moot, at least to the PFD Board.

Remember, they will see this as a 'question of law',
which they are not qualified to rule on;
it is outside the scope of their authority / jurisdiction
to rule on a 'question of law'.

Regardless of how plain the language may appear to us,
it will be useless to argue, in the legal sense, this particular point.

The goal of attending a Board meeting is to request them to get a recommendation
from the city attorney regarding removal of the signs.


So that ends all administrative prohibitions on guns by municipal corporations in the State of Washington, right?

Not quite.
But it does mean we are likely to win a challenge of administrative prohibitions
on guns by municipal corporations in the State of Washington.
 
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kparker

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
1,326
Location
Tacoma, Washington, USA
Then the argument could be that they are trying to enforce a law that has been repealed!

WA's preemption law goes further than to say the city can't create such a law, it specifically REPEALS any law that violates said preemption.

It's almost as if we need to follow Florida and have a law that provides specific penalties for officials who knowingly attempt to enforce repealed laws.
 
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deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
It's almost as if we need to follow Florida and have a law that provides specific penalties for officials who knowingly attempt to enforce repealed laws.


Violation of preemption is a misdemeanor crime in Washington. RCW 9.41.810.
 

Jeff Hayes

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
2,569
Location
Long gone
If we get into a war of definitions and intent on the statutes themselves,
we may be able to appeal to the likes of
Stoh Brewery Co. v. Department of Revenue,
104 Wn. App. 235, 240, 15 P.3d 692, rev. denied, 144 Wn.2d 1002 (2001),
a statute should be interpreted according to its plain and unambiguous language,
and the Department “[should] glean the legislative intent from the words of the statute itself…”.



Clearly the legislature intended persons with CPLs to be able to carry in arenas, convention centers and stadiums or they would not have added the exception.

Thanks Hadji for the very good input my intention was to suggest/demand that the law change and ask for an apology etc. I most likely will only have 3 minutes so it will be short and to the point.
 

amlevin

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
Location
North of Seattle, Washington, USA
I most likely will only have 3 minutes so it will be short and to the point.

"Ladies and gentlemen. Seattle tried this with their parks ban and the State Supreme Court refused to review a lower courts tossing out the "ban". The law is clear, your ordnance prohibiting firearms has been rendered invalid by 'State Law' which has survived court review."

That should leave you 2 minutes and 30 seconds for friendly conversation:)
 

hadji

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
122
Location
Spokane
Orphan:

You have a PM.
It is some advice on wording and presentation.
Use it, or not, at your discretion, sir.

hadji
 

Lammo

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2009
Messages
580
Location
Spokane, Washington, USA
So that ends all administrative prohibitions on guns by municipal corporations in the State of Washington, right?

No loopholes? "Oh, that's not a published opinion" or "Oh no. It only applies in King County" or any other tricks, right?

Chan is a published opinion of the Court of Intermediate Error, Division One. The denial of the City's petition for review will be noted without explanation in the reports of the Court of Final Error. The citiation for Chan can now be stated as "Chan v. City of Seattle, 164 Wash.App. 549, 265 P.3d 169 (Div. I, 2011), review denied, ___ Wn 2d ___ (2012)" with the volume and page number of the denial filled in once it gets to the advance sheets.
 
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hadji

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
122
Location
Spokane
Orphan:

Sources claim you were not present at the board meeting.
Do you require more, or different, assistance sir?

hadji
 

Jeff Hayes

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
2,569
Location
Long gone
Orphan:

Sources claim you were not present at the board meeting.
Do you require more, or different, assistance sir?

hadji

No I was there along with BobR, the chairman even moved the public comment portion of the meeting to the beginning so we did not have to sit through the regular business. I asked for them to consult the City Attorney about the sign and future signs regarding the legal possession and carrying of firearms. I handed out 10 copy of RCW 9.41.290, 300 with the pertinent parts highlighted along with a recreated copy of the sign that was posted on the door. The chairman said they would look into it and get back to me. Before the meeting I said hello and shook hands with Johnna Boxley, Mr. Twohig and the Chairman who informed me of the brand and model pistol he owned. All in all it was very cordial and I felt that the board in fact listened to what I had to say. In hind sight I wish I would have gone over the RCWs in detail but I was only allowed 3 minutes but was told I could have a bit longer if I needed it. Mark Williams the security supervisor that was at the Ron Paul rally and his assistant were also present and the only ones that did not have a pleasant attitude toward myself and BobR.

Your assistance was much appreciated and I used quite a bit of it in my short speech. Thank you for the help I think it made a difference.

I do not know where you got your info but it is wrong, are the minutes posted I have not checked.

I will wait for their response and go on to City Counsel if necessary.

Please feel free to continue your valuable input.
 

BobR

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2007
Messages
391
Location
West Plains, ,
First off let me say the people at the PFD Board of Directors meeting, except for a couple, were friendly, attentive and seemed receptive to the comments made by Orphan. For the most part they seemed to be genuinely friendly toward us. There was one notable exception IMO, but as he is the one whose authority/action is being brought into question it is not unsurprising.

As the RCWs were cited several of them looked them up in the packet Orphan gave them, and the BOD lawyer was writing them down. I wuld like to think they discussed this after we left the room, but there is no way to know.

Every one who does OC in Spokane (city) or a PFD facility needs to start taking notes, recordings, videos or anything else that can show a pattern of abuse by the city/PFD when it comes to allowing people to exercise their rights. If it does end up in litigation, each of these instances may help.

I don't see a quick solution to this issue, especially since the city just passed the new ordinance that is in violation of state law. But, the solution is out there somewhere and to find it we all have to be willing to start the journey.

bob
 

hadji

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
122
Location
Spokane
Orphan:

Ah, very good.
Well done!

The minutes have not been posted yet, and by necessity,
my inquiries must be rather... uummm... er... 'oblique'. ;)

And yes, I can still be useful to you.

Hopefully, we will not have to wait for Ms. Isserlis
to come on board and get up to speed.

But even so, you have already achieved a 'standing' that will
be helpful in addressing the city council.

Though a favorable ruling from the PFD is a good thing,
the ultimate goal is a change to the offensive portion of
SMC 10.10.050.

An unfavorable ruling by the PFD gives grounds for appeal;
a favorable ruling gives additional impetus to a 'cause of action'.

BobR:

It should be noted that the offensive portion of the wording
of SMC 10.10.050, paragraph A, was not added recently.
The January 9, 2012 modification to that code, (Ordinance No. C34823),
was merely to address/correct some of the names of existing PFD facilities,
which is located in paragraph B.

I apologize if that comes across as slightly pedantic.
We must however, maintain a very precise and technically accurate course
through the next few months.

Additionally, allow me to thank you for attending, and supporting,
Orphan at that meeting.
It is vastly easier to 'stand your ground' when you have a buddy
backing you up.
"Good on ya", as our friends from down under would exclaim!

To all:

BobR gives good advice on recording any incidents regarding this issue.
Even so, there is no need to be adversarial. At least not yet.
Orphan already has what is essentially a prima facie case.

Let's monitor it, and keep it alive, but not jepordize any of the elements.

hadji
 

PALO

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
729
Location
Kent
Good luck getting the system to prosecute themselves, and who of us can afford private prosecution?

there is no such thing as private prosecution in WA state.

a private person can approach a prosecutor's office (iow no statutory need to go through the cops) to present criminal evidence, although they will tell you - make a police report generally speaking, such as the AG's office in WA state takes complaints directly (not from LEO's) for many kind of frauds, etc. and even have a hotline, etc.

but there is no such thing as private prosecution in WA state. all prosecutions list a state actor (city of, state, etc.) as "victim" in all criminal informations.

you have civil redress for stuff, but if no prosecutor will take a case, there is no way to privately prosecute somebody in WA state REGARDLESS of cost
 

amlevin

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
Location
North of Seattle, Washington, USA
Mark Williams the security supervisor that was at the Ron Paul rally and his assistant were also present and the only ones that did not have a pleasant attitude toward myself and BobR.

Probably because if the "rule" is eliminated, they only armed people in their venue will be citizens. The "Board" will probably not allow these guys to carry firearms themselves.
 

Jeff Hayes

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
2,569
Location
Long gone
Much thanks to BobR he gave up sleep that day, Bob works crazy hours, to come to the board meeting and support me. I have had Bob's back for quite some time now and he mine so I was not surprised when he beat me to the meeting.

Now we wait for an answer to see what our next move will be.
 
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