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Thread: Borders

  1. #1
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    Borders

    Found this on facebook, had to repost.


  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Don't forget we can seem to keep the 38th parallel fortified, but not our own border.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    You may not realize that a large portion of illegal immigration happens right through our front door.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...7tR_story.html

    http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...-overstay.html

    While I'm not disregarding the illegal immigration going on across the US/Mexico border, it seems rather fascist to talk strictly about undocumented immigration from the border.
    Last edited by onlurker; 03-06-2012 at 11:11 AM.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Soooo, let's look to Iran and North Korea because they are such great examples of how a country should be ran, amirite?

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    Soooo, let's look to Iran and North Korea because they are such great examples of how a country should be ran, amirite?
    Good point. Though N.Korea has it's border secured too keep people in just as much as people out. Ron Paul alluded too the possibility of people someday wanting to escape the US.

    We do need better controls so we know who comes in, and we can track them if we want them out.

    I think the idea of an open border where anyone can come in anytime with anything they like is absurd though.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    Yeah, an open border smacks too much of freedom. We can't have that here.

    Edit: my current signature comes from a friend's comment about how to view people crossing the borders. His unredacted comment:
    Often in the public debate about immigration (ie. brownies crossing the border), the "issue" (ie. concern troll) of illegals skewing the vote gets trotted out as yet another example of their heinous crime against this country.

    However, I don't think the inventors of this fiction thought out the implications of the accusation; or rather, they could count out the possibility of their audience ever thinking that far.

    For if we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights.
    The short of it: if we considered citizenship something that is earned rather than inherited, who has earned it more than one who has risked their lives to get here in hopes of a better life?
    Last edited by Tawnos; 03-06-2012 at 05:40 PM.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    A fully-secured border with a physical barrier deeply disturbs the liberty-lover in me. The last thing I want is to give the State the ability to pen me in like an animal.

    On the other hand, I firmly believe that it is folly to assume that a constitutional republic can be maintained while absorbing a tremendous influx of poor people from Third World societies, many of which have not yet evolved to even the "Magna Carta" stage of understanding rights and freedoms. In many if not most of the nations that produce the majority of illegal aliens, politics is characterized by vicious intergroup struggles to obtain total power. Once control of government is achieved, it is used as a tool to deliver benefits to those in power and to screw over those who are not. Is it reasonable to assume that once they touch American soil, they will magically become good constitutional patriots and vote for limited government? I think not, especially considering their economic position once they enter, and the fact that they enter in such large numbers that they often are able to form exclusive ethnic communities that do not integrate and have very clear ideas about collective interests.

    I really don't have the answer on this one.

    EDIT: My comments can also be applied to legal immigration, although to a lesser degree. While there is at least some control, many overstay their visas (which I believe is actually the most common entry method of illegal aliens), and "family reunification" and humanitarian/refugee/asylum claims bring in folks who do not contribute to the needs of the country. Frankly, until unemployment is zero, I think the argument could be made that we don't need any further immigration at all. 330 million people is plenty, and I've never driven through beautiful open country and wished I had seen condos and strip malls.
    Last edited by ManInBlack; 03-06-2012 at 05:50 PM.

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    Liberty is for those within the fence. Its our fence. But theres no point in putting a guard at a gate, if he doesnt shoot those who cross it.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Liberty is for those within the fence. Its our fence. But theres no point in putting a guard at a gate, if he doesnt shoot those who cross it.
    So what you're saying is that no one outside of the 'fence' should have liberty?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    So what you're saying is that no one outside of the 'fence' should have liberty?
    Whether they have liberty or not shouldn't be our concern. They can fight their own revolutions. When we start getting involved in other nations' civil wars (i.e. Libya + Syria), that is when things go to ****.

    I'm just worried about being within the fence when liberty is taken away, and not having the option to flee if I deem that is what is best for my family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    I'm just worried about being within the fence when liberty is taken away, and not having the option to flee if I deem that is what is best for my family.
    The way certain constituents of this country think, it won't be the "flee-er's" country of origin that will be of concern but rather the country with which someone is attempting to flee into. Are you expecting them to accept you with open arms (within certain citizen guidelines of course)?

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Whether they have liberty or not shouldn't be our concern. They can fight their own revolutions. When we start getting involved in other nations' civil wars (i.e. Libya + Syria), that is when things go to ****.

    I'm just worried about being within the fence when liberty is taken away, and not having the option to flee if I deem that is what is best for my family.
    You can fight your own revolution! Whether you have liberty or not is not the concern of others nations and they need to stay out of your business.

    You shouldn't be allowed to immigrate to other nations, because you don't even have a basic understanding of liberty, as evidenced by your unwillingness to fight for it and subsequently just running away somewhere else. And as a refugee, your economic position in their nation would be as a leech. You would be nothing more than a blight and stain on their nation. And frankly, until they reach zero unemployment, I don't think they should even consider allowing you to immigrate into their nation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    You can fight your own revolution! Whether you have liberty or not is not the concern of others nations and they need to stay out of your business.

    You shouldn't be allowed to immigrate to other nations, because you don't even have a basic understanding of liberty, as evidenced by your unwillingness to fight for it and subsequently just running away somewhere else. And as a refugee, your economic position in their nation would be as a leech. You would be nothing more than a blight and stain on their nation. And frankly, until they reach zero unemployment, I don't think they should even consider allowing you to immigrate into their nation.
    1. Calm down.
    2. I only said I wanted the option, for the protection of my family.
    3. You have no idea what preparations I've made or what my economic position would be in such a scenario.
    4. I recognize and respect the right of sovereign nations to deny me entry. My hope would be that my skills and/or resources would be seen as an asset and would buy me access.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    Yeah, an open border smacks too much of freedom. We can't have that here.

    Edit: my current signature comes from a friend's comment about how to view people crossing the borders. His unredacted comment:


    The short of it: if we considered citizenship something that is earned rather than inherited, who has earned it more than one who has risked their lives to get here in hopes of a better life?
    I'd agree with you IF the government was not stealing my money and giving it to other people. If we end forced "charity" then I'd know that the new arrivals were not coming to get my money... that indeed they were here to make the best of the opportunities of freedom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    So what you're saying is that no one outside of the 'fence' should have liberty?
    They can get their own.

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    The first sentence of the preamble to the Declaration of Independence:

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,[75] that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
    Those paying attention already get the point. In case some of those who don't already get the point are willing to listen, I'll elucidate:

    The rights identified by those who founded this nation were not limited, in their view, merely to those whom the wiles of fortune had ordained to be born within the borders of an arbitrarily-defined geopolitical region. Such rights were possessed of all people*. That was The Point™: no accident of provenance governed, in any way, these rights which are intrinsic to people. Let's leave aside, at least for now, whether this Declaration can be claimed to justify interference in foreign matters**. Incontrovertibly, the founders of this nation countenanced no notion that people outside the nation were possessed of lesser rights than those within, and by corollary no government of the people of this nation may be destructive of the rights possessed by any people.

    In short, by the clear instruction of the Declaration which separated this nation from Great Britain, no government of this nation may take the view that Liberty is any less the right of those outside this nation than those inside.


    * As those with grounding in English grammar understand, "men" can be, and in this case is, used in the neuter form. Moreover, while the ubiquitous nature of this statement seems to present direct contradiction to the continuation of slavery in the nation that issued this Declaration, two things ought to be clear: first, that men are fallible; second, that the language herein contained was the compromise reached whereby abolition was not explicitly advocated, but left to future debate. There is no argument that can pass rational, let alone scholarly, muster which suggests that the preamble does not cover all human creatures, period.

    ** This author believes it can not; the reader is encouraged to try his hand at an understanding of the specific (it's capitalized for a reason) meaning of the term "the People".

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    1. Calm down.
    2. I only said I wanted the option, for the protection of my family.
    3. You have no idea what preparations I've made or what my economic position would be in such a scenario.
    4. I recognize and respect the right of sovereign nations to deny me entry. My hope would be that my skills and/or resources would be seen as an asset and would buy me access.
    1. I'm just repeating your own words.
    2. So you want the option to immigrate to another nation all the while denying those options for others?
    3. Does it matter what your preparations you make today if the government explodes into tyranny tomorrow?
    4. All the while saying that this nation shouldn't let anyone immigrate until unemployment reaches an impossible zero percent. Yet, you want other countries to let you immigrate there?

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    Here's my opinion and view point on this subject, we keep immigration to where people who apply and get approved to come on get to come over. The people who illegally enter our nation need to get the **** out so we can stop paying for their free ride. I'm all of having people join our country and all, but if your going to do it illegally and then expect us to pay for your living within our country? Yeah as I and others would say "Get the **** out".
    Nothing better than a Glock.........except maybe another Glock!

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    Regular Member Stanley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWCook View Post
    The people who illegally enter our nation need to get the **** out so we can stop paying for their free ride
    Lol. Seriously? We are hardly giving free rides to illegals.

    Besides, if that's your position I'll call it and raise you "let's get rid of anybody getting a free ride."

    Welfare recipients, kids in public school, grandmas on Medicaid, anyone getting pell grants, disabled people on SSI. Get the heck out!!! Pull your weight or GTFO...

    /sarcasm
    "The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism." - George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796

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    Actually, getting rid of public school isnt a bad idea.

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    I was not trying to make a point on that extreme of a level. In short I'm stating if you came over to the United States illegally and knowing it, your butt needs to go back to your home country. Welfare recipients, kids in public school, grandmas on Medicaid, anyone getting pell grants, disabled people on SSI those do not bother me at all. Except for the welfare people who knowing abuse the system for a free ride. I'm speaking of illegal Immigrants, not the subject of welfare or other internal issues already in our country.




    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley View Post
    Lol. Seriously? We are hardly giving free rides to illegals.

    Besides, if that's your position I'll call it and raise you "let's get rid of anybody getting a free ride."

    Welfare recipients, kids in public school, grandmas on Medicaid, anyone getting pell grants, disabled people on SSI. Get the heck out!!! Pull your weight or GTFO...

    /sarcasm
    Nothing better than a Glock.........except maybe another Glock!

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    I think they should deputize willing civilians put them up on a guard shack, or perimeter walk, and if someone crosses the border, shoot them.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Stanley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWCook View Post
    I was not trying to make a point on that extreme of a level. In short I'm stating if you came over to the United States illegally and knowing it, your butt needs to go back to your home country. Welfare recipients, kids in public school, grandmas on Medicaid, anyone getting pell grants, disabled people on SSI those do not bother me at all. Except for the welfare people who knowing abuse the system for a free ride. I'm speaking of illegal Immigrants, not the subject of welfare or other internal issues already in our country.
    I get ya. I just don't understand the half***ed view people take with this. Get them all out.

    Heck, if you aren't a vet get out.

    In fact, everyone but natives get out. You are just an anchor baby if you look back far enough.

    I'm trying to point out the silliness in the sentiment. If you grew up in a craphole, like say El Salvador, you'd run your behind here so quick. Then, while undoubtedly working harder than many Americans, especially those I listed, people have the audacity to say you are a freeloader and need to get out. Who cares that the menial work you do, that Americans won't do anyways, keeps your family from starving in a country where people actually still starve to death.

    These same people telling you to GTFO whilst attending church every Sunday no doubt.

    Silly...
    "The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism." - George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796

  24. #24
    Regular Member Stanley's Avatar
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    Though I'm amenable to a conservative Republican solution like...







    Reagan's Amnesty. Hey!!! Win Win.
    "The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism." - George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796

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    If they are willing to risk coming over to the United States, then they should be willing to do it the proper way. If your willing to work like a dog illegally, why not apply for a visa or heck maybe citizenship to the U.S. so you can work anywhere you want and get the benefit of being legal in the country.
    Nothing better than a Glock.........except maybe another Glock!

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