Borders

I was not trying to make a point on that extreme of a level. In short I'm stating if you came over to the United States illegally and knowing it, your butt needs to go back to your home country. Welfare recipients, kids in public school, grandmas on Medicaid, anyone getting pell grants, disabled people on SSI those do not bother me at all. Except for the welfare people who knowing abuse the system for a free ride. I'm speaking of illegal Immigrants, not the subject of welfare or other internal issues already in our country.

Stanley said:

Lol. Seriously? We are hardly giving free rides to illegals.

Besides, if that's your position I'll call it and raise you "let's get rid of anybody getting a free ride."

Welfare recipients, kids in public school, grandmas on Medicaid, anyone getting pell grants, disabled people on SSI. Get the heck out!!! Pull your weight or GTFO...

/sarcasm

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I think they should deputize willing civilians put them up on a guard shack, or perimeter walk, and if someone crosses the border, shoot them.

DWCook said:

I was not trying to make a point on that extreme of a level. In short I'm stating if you came over to the United States illegally and knowing it, your butt needs to go back to your home country. Welfare recipients, kids in public school, grandmas on Medicaid, anyone getting pell grants, disabled people on SSI those do not bother me at all. Except for the welfare people who knowing abuse the system for a free ride. I'm speaking of illegal Immigrants, not the subject of welfare or other internal issues already in our country.

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I get ya. I just don't understand the half***ed view people take with this. Get them all out.

Heck, if you aren't a vet get out.

In fact, everyone but natives get out. You are just an anchor baby if you look back far enough.

I'm trying to point out the silliness in the sentiment. If you grew up in a craphole, like say El Salvador, you'd run your behind here so quick. Then, while undoubtedly working harder than many Americans, especially those I listed, people have the audacity to say you are a freeloader and need to get out. Who cares that the menial work you do, that Americans won't do anyways, keeps your family from starving in a country where people actually still starve to death.

These same people telling you to GTFO whilst attending church every Sunday no doubt.

Silly...

Though I'm amenable to a conservative Republican solution like...







Reagan's Amnesty. Hey!!! Win Win.

If they are willing to risk coming over to the United States, then they should be willing to do it the proper way. If your willing to work like a dog illegally, why not apply for a visa or heck maybe citizenship to the U.S. so you can work anywhere you want and get the benefit of being legal in the country.

DWCook said:

If they are willing to risk coming over to the United States, then they should be willing to do it the proper way. If your willing to work like a dog illegally, why not apply for a visa or heck maybe citizenship to the U.S. so you can work anywhere you want and get the benefit of being legal in the country.

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Sure, open up the rolls for anyone who wants to come legally. Make any who apply be accepted if they're not a felon or insane. Because at present that's not an option for the people who are risking their lives to get here.

Get rid of entitlements and the drug wars than immigration is no problem.

If you still take a stand against migration after that you have problems rooted in bigotry.

sudden valley gunner said:

Get rid of entitlements and the drug wars than immigration is no problem.

If you still take a stand against migration after that you have problems rooted in bigotry.

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I agree that we need to get rid of those things, but also that there is another legitimate reason for opposing immigration: maintaining the national character. For instance, Germany will only be able to absorb so many Turks before it is no longer "German." Likewise, we have a culture here that, while it contains elements of other cultures (primarily European), is unique in the world, and it is not shameful at all to say we want to protect it.

Taking in very small numbers of skilled workers to fill need gaps in our economy? OK, I can live with that, as they will eventually assimilate. However, mass migration, and mass numbers of foreigners within one's country make it easier for newcomers not to assimilate, as they can stay in their own ethnic ghettos. Some neighborhoods in Los Angeles are a good example of this phenomenon.

ManInBlack said:

I agree that we need to get rid of those things, but also that there is another legitimate reason for opposing immigration: maintaining the national character. For instance, Germany will only be able to absorb so many Turks before it is no longer "German." Likewise, we have a culture here that, while it contains elements of other cultures (primarily European), is unique in the world, and it is not shameful at all to say we want to protect it.

Taking in very small numbers of skilled workers to fill need gaps in our economy? OK, I can live with that, as they will eventually assimilate. However, mass migration, and mass numbers of foreigners within one's country make it easier for newcomers not to assimilate, as they can stay in their own ethnic ghettos. Some neighborhoods in Los Angeles are a good example of this phenomenon.

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Our culture is that of an amalgamation of many diverse cultures from places around the world, with millions upon millions of immigrants. The only thing that would happens if we let whoever wanted come here is to make things different. Different is not synonymous with "worse", though you seem to equate the two.

Of course, this is where you laugh at me for being an idiot despite my reasoned response.

Immigration is ignored during good economic times, then you run into an issue that we have now, here in this Country--illegals having children while here. Now the whole debate is about whether or not the child is actually a born American; well, they are, IMO.

What business owners who hire illegals, and politicians have created is a moral dilemma, IMO. If we don't send the illegal back, turn away from their illegal crossing, and let them make a life here, then we have what we have now.

I see the only solution being amnesty for those who are here with children; both parents (if they are both illegal). Then any time following that amnesty date no illegal is permitted to receive a drivers license, an ID card, or financial--food, cash--assistance unless they attain refugee status.

Illegals aren't the issue, it is the businesses and the politicians that are the problem, IMO.

Mirror Mexico's illegal immigration laws

I am all for legal immigration, I spent 22 months and around $30K to bring my (now ex-) wife and her daughter up from Brazil.
Following the rules is a pain, and the bureaucracy needs to be streamlined, but like it or not it needs to be followed.
It kills me when the Mexican President slams US laws, especially when states try to address the issue when the Feds aren't.
So to be fair we need to make the penalties the same as Mexico's, then they can't complain.
Also, when deporting, drop them off at the far end of Mexico, at least then it would take a while for them to re-enter.

Link to 2010 article

Another article also 2010

*snip*

• Under Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony. The General Law on Population says,
- “A penalty of up to two years in prison and a fine of three hundred to five thousand pesos will be imposed on the foreigner who enters the country illegally.” (Article 123)

• Mexicans who help illegal aliens enter the country are themselves considered criminals under the law:
- A Mexican who marries a foreigner with the sole objective of helping the foreigner live in the country is subject to up to five years in prison. (Article 127)

Immigrants who are deported and attempt to re-enter can be imprisoned for 10 years. Visa violators can be sentenced to six-year terms.

*/snip*

Note, I'm not just against Mexican illegal immigration, I'm against all illegal immigration.
It's just that Mexico being right there on the border has the highest percent (around 60%) gets the focus and attention.

Link to 2009 graph

sudden valley gunner said:

Get rid of entitlements and the drug wars than immigration is no problem.

If you still take a stand against migration after that you have problems rooted in bigotry.

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Or problems with too many people, who will tolerate and enjoy big government/socialism, coming at once. I'll take escaping Cubans all day, they know what government control is, I just don't want too many coming that think they can vote for prosperity.

Daylen said:

Or problems with too many people, who will tolerate and enjoy big government/socialism, coming at once. I'll take escaping Cubans all day, they know what government control is, I just don't want too many coming that think they can vote for prosperity.

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That is all most people have now, is the vote for prosperity. I am confident that each of those individuals would gladly exchange actual prosperity for that vote. People vote based on the most effective articulation of a dream that most people have, to live a decent life, and have a shred of dignity (I know, strawmen, right!).

The system is broke, and nobody wants to work together to fix the problem, instead, everyone digs their heels in, and prepares for a winner takes all fight; that's gotten us somewhere, hasn't it.

ManInBlack said:

I agree that we need to get rid of those things, but also that there is another legitimate reason for opposing immigration: maintaining the national character. For instance, Germany will only be able to absorb so many Turks before it is no longer "German." Likewise, we have a culture here that, while it contains elements of other cultures (primarily European), is unique in the world, and it is not shameful at all to say we want to protect it.

Taking in very small numbers of skilled workers to fill need gaps in our economy? OK, I can live with that, as they will eventually assimilate. However, mass migration, and mass numbers of foreigners within one's country make it easier for newcomers not to assimilate, as they can stay in their own ethnic ghettos. Some neighborhoods in Los Angeles are a good example of this phenomenon.

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Daylen said:

Or problems with too many people, who will tolerate and enjoy big government/socialism, coming at once. I'll take escaping Cubans all day, they know what government control is, I just don't want too many coming that think they can vote for prosperity.

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I guess I was being a little limited on my statements, I was assuming that if we got rid of entitlements the influx would smaller and if there weren't gaps to be filled people won't flock here from other places. I apologize if I seemed a little narrow minded, the reasons you guys give are valid concerns too and one the founders shared.

Tawnos said:

Different is not synonymous with "worse", though you seem to equate the two.

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You are right; different is not always bad. However, in the case of immigration, it often is. Immigrants tend to seek a better life than the one they left behind. Very few people will pack up everything they own to move to a country that is just "different." What they left behind, more often than not, are oppressive, third-world-countries whose societies have not evolved beyond the Magna Carta stage of understanding individual rights and liberties. Sorry, but the current culture of Zimbabwe is not "just as good" as the one we have here.

Of course, this is where you laugh at me for being an idiot despite my reasoned response.

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You have to be a reasonable person to give a reasoned response.

ManInBlack said:

What they left behind, more often than not, are oppressive, third-world-countries whose societies have not evolved beyond the Magna Carta stage of understanding individual rights and liberties. Sorry, but the current culture of Zimbabwe is not "just as good" as the one we have here.

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Which negates the idea of immigrants diluting our so-called culture. Most immigrants I've known (radical religious ones aside) tend to appreciate and embrace American "freedom" more so than Americans do.

That said, I completely agree with limited immigration. We can't save or absorb every immigrant in the world nor should we.

Stanley said:

Which negates the idea of immigrants diluting our so-called culture. Most immigrants I've known (radical religious ones aside) tend to appreciate and embrace American "freedom" more so than Americans do.

That said, I completely agree with limited immigration. We can't save or absorb every immigrant in the world nor should we.

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Point taken, but in my experience, most immigrants are primarily seeking economic freedom, not political freedom. This is precisely why so many are willing to come as illegal aliens, without the ability to vote (theoretically).

That sense of Americanism you refer to, no doubt, develops in a certain proportion of those who legally immigrate. However, I have also seen strong strains of dual-loyalty or even retaining the previous national identity. Of course, YMMV.

On a side note I do see hope in many immigrants I associate with from Eastern Europe, India, and Mexico...they want liberty , they want freedom, they know what it means not to have it both civilly and economically.

I have been told many times, especially by Eastern European immigrants how they don't like the direction our country is moving they moved here to escape socialism.

ManInBlack said:

That sense of Americanism you refer to, no doubt, develops in a certain proportion of those who legally immigrate. However, I have also seen strong strains of dual-loyalty or even retaining the previous national identity. Of course, YMMV.

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This will always happen. It's usually not until the 2nd or 3rd generation where the children insist on being American like their peers. My immigrant friends are always upset because their kids refuse to learn/speak Spanish/Arabic/etc. I know of several kids (through friends kids) whose parents make them wear hijabs/burqas. They get to school and change to regular clothing.

Peer pressure is strong. Just takes time. Staggering immigration will give us consistent waves of "true Americans."

Lord Sega said:

I am all for legal immigration, I spent 22 months and around $30K to bring my (now ex-) wife and her daughter up from Brazil.
Following the rules is a pain, and the bureaucracy needs to be streamlined, but like it or not it needs to be followed.

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In other words: "I was raped and abused by the system, and I support similar abuse being heaped upon others, because rules are rules." Immigration law is a classic mashup of Hume's guillotine and the problem of hazing. What I mean by that is that people justfy that people ought to follow rules because they are in existence, and therefore right. Additionally, much like people who endure hazing in a fraternity or other organization are willing to inflict it upon the next group of incomers, the difficulties and pain of current immigration law seems to be justified in the abstract of "I'd better keep this up or my own experience wasn't worth it." However, you cannot objectively say that following the rules is the right thing to do simply because they exist. If you have a starving family or one suffering under a despotic regime, what is right is for you to break the arbitrary rules keeping you and your family from life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Should the US government or that of any of the states stand to oppose you through imposition of rules that are impossible for you to follow (either because you will be killed (life), imprisoned by your government for wanting to leave/opposing it (liberty), or because they just don't want you to come here and seek better employment (pursuit of happiness)), then you have the right to break those rules, in my opinion.


When people start trying to deny immigration under the guise of "maintaining the national character", it's merely a call to preserve a status quo that benefits them at the expense of another. That's actually a reasonable response, but it's not a right one, a just one, one that fits in line with the values and national character the person so boldly espouses. Our nation was founded by immigrants escaping worse conditions to come here. Many of them were poor and destitute, hunted, or otherwise the unwanted masses, yet we took them in. Somehow "America the free" has been twisted into "America the keep out, undesirables". How does that jive with any of the principles upon which our country was founded, or that are protected and enshrined in our highest law of the land?

You have to be a reasonable person to give a reasoned response.

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Ad hominem tu quoque: you cannot do x because it is inconsistent with your own character. Your perception of me as an unreasonable person does not alter the content of my statements nor are any of my statements made unreasonable simply due to your view of me. To analyze whether a statement is reasonable or unreasonable you should ignore who is saying it and evaluate the statement on its own merits. Else, your own biases and prejudices will drag down your ability to comprehend or respond in a mature and logical manner.