I have no valid counterpoints to your statements. Numbers are not tracked adequately to state anything definitive on legal/illegal incarceration. I have seen those same numbers you are stating. I have how ever seen numbers that are reverse of what is above. Some indicating that 30% of those in jail are Latino decent and half of those are illegals. But again I wouldn't trust those estimates either.
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Borders
- Thread starter stainless1911
- Start date
I have no valid counterpoints to your statements. Numbers are not tracked adequately to state anything definitive on legal/illegal incarceration. I have seen those same numbers you are stating. I have how ever seen numbers that are reverse of what is above. Some indicating that 30% of those in jail are Latino decent and half of those are illegals. But again I wouldn't trust those estimates either.
I'm a 100% proponent of a fully open border, HOWEVER, I couple that directly with giving 0.0% social-welfare benefits to anybody. EDIT: Nobody should get welfare, changed that, it shouldn't matter your status as immigrant/native.
If you want to come here and work, or even come here and loaf *on your own dime*, well then welcome and have fun. If you want to come here for "Free" This/That/The Other that the rest of us are forced to fund with our taxes, then get the hell out and don't let the door smack your ass on the way out.
I find this position fully in line with my general libertarian philosophies.
Ditto
Beretta92FSLady
Regular Member
I would like to know where you get half the Latino population incarcerated are illegal. Apparently you know about as much about illegal immigrants as I know about refineries in the U.S.
"Criminologist professor James Alan Fox from Northeastern University was not surprised by the new information, "You take any population that tends to be poor and you will have a higher rate of individuals in prison," he said. "One, there is a correlation between social class and criminality and two there's a correlation between social class and the likelihood you'll be sent to prison for the same crime as compared to people in a higher social class."
Fox says this is due in part to inadequate legal representation for low-income people. And he adds: "There's a title of an old book the rich get richer; the poor get prison."
FBI crime data indicates a 10 percent decline in Arizona's crime rate from 2000 to 2009 which some see as a sign that undocumented immigrants have not made the state more violent overall." http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20011391-10391695.html
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I would like to know where you get half the Latino population incarcerated are illegal. Apparently you know about as much about illegal immigrants as I know about refineries in the U.S.
"Criminologist professor James Alan Fox from Northeastern University was not surprised by the new information, "You take any population that tends to be poor and you will have a higher rate of individuals in prison," he said. "One, there is a correlation between social class and criminality and two there's a correlation between social class and the likelihood you'll be sent to prison for the same crime as compared to people in a higher social class."
Fox says this is due in part to inadequate legal representation for low-income people. And he adds: "There's a title of an old book the rich get richer; the poor get prison."
FBI crime data indicates a 10 percent decline in Arizona's crime rate from 2000 to 2009 which some see as a sign that undocumented immigrants have not made the state more violent overall." http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20011391-10391695.html
Like I said I wouldn't trust that number. It came from a U.S. Senators office, can't remember where I saw it, but i didn't believe it. No arguments from me on what James Alan Fox states, I agree.
I wouldn't quote anything from a News organization, it would be suspect. News organizations no longer print fact, just opinion.
Beretta92FSLady
Regular Member
Well, you just don't believe in anything, do you. I take information and incorporate it into the totality of my knowledge. Most everything is derived from opinion.
marshaul
Campaign Veteran
Ah, so that's how you personally define "empirical".
Things make a lot more sense now.
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Come on now. I was agreeing with you on most of what you said.
Spirit4earth
Regular Member
Found this on facebook, had to repost.
Are you saying you the US to become like North Korea, Afghanistan, or Iran? Go live in one of those countries and report back!
marshaul
Campaign Veteran
Nah, Stainless is better than that. I think Mexicans just make him a little grumpy. :lol:
()pen(arry
Regular Member
Tawnos
Regular Member
If you're going to claim I'm responding with emotion rather than logic, you should be able to point out the logical fallacies I employ. For example, your second point is appeal to consequences of a belief mixed in a bit with appeal to belief.
The present state of law says "you shall not x". However, I am claiming the constitutional validity of that is questionable at best. Moreover, I'm stating that an acts legality does not affect its morality. Because this thread doesn't have enough Godwin, and all threads should: sheltering Jews in Nazi Germany may well have been illegal, but it was the right thing to do.
If it's a good thing, then make all immigration legal. Or is there more you're hiding in that statement that you expect us to read into?
Note I didn't say buying guns, but carrying a gun in california without one of their elusive permits. I thought it a fitting comparison since they are permits made artificially scarce by government limitation on a fundamental right, similar to how immigration papers are permits to freely travel and associate.
PrayingForWar
Founder's Club Member
That is ridiculous, of everything on TV that show evicerates moonbats worse than G. Gordon Liddy. They take their cracks at "conservatives" as well, but I would say they're much more biased in my favor than that of the bed wetters.
I am just stating we can not allow just uncontrolled immigration into the country. It is a matter of finite resources I don't know how else to explain it. If I have one gallon of gas I can only go as far as that one gallon will take me, if I add more people to my vehicle it goes a less distance, my vehicle can only fit so many people.
If we continue to allow illegal immigration to continue we will sooner or later hit that proverbial out of gas scenario. I don't have all the answers but I know we have a limit of what we can do.
As far as my statement about immigration being a good thing, let me elaborate. I think legal immigration is one of the greatest things we have that brings in new blood, new ideas and hard working people. Then they send their kids to college, thus contributing to the overall wealth and success of this country. I also believe for every dollar we spend helping legal immigrants we get 10 back down the road. I know many legal immigrants that came to this country, Russian, Mexican, Bosnian (is that correct?), Korean, etc. Some of which are now related to me by marriage and adoption. All learned English and their children are in or out of college.
Illegal immigrants get pushed to the side and don't achieve the same level (not in all cases so don't blow me out of the water on this) success as legal ones. I can't quote you numbers, but all of the legal ones I know and its many, have jobs, houses and contribute to society. And no not all of the original parents of children that immigrated here have high paying jobs, but their children are more successful then they are, like my son being more successful them myself.
Charity is a good thing, but giving until you are broke does no one any good.
marshaul
Campaign Veteran
Matt Stone and Trey Parker are both pretty unapologetically libertarian, FWIW.
sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
And they make me laugh!
PrayingForWar
Founder's Club Member
Tawnos
Regular Member
Except it's your burden of proof to show that. Economics is not a zero sum game, and more people does not intrinsically mean more burden. In fact, you contradict this claim hen you say "for every dollar we spend helping legal immigrants we get 10 back down the road." More people doesn't intrinsically mean more burden. In fact, it can mean more consumers and thus more tax payers. If your response to this will be in relation to social programs, you should be arguing against those programs, not against immigration. Travel and free association are rights, social services are not.
Okay, so bear with me for a moment. You've made a case for why legal immigration is a good thing. You've also demonstrated that you understand what happens to people that are undocumented aliens (I call them such not out of any sense of emotional attachment, but because it deals with a more focused subset of those which might fall under the "illegal immigrants" - which includes those staying over a visa or even those in temporary violation of the law due to bureaucratic delays - it focuses on those who moved here without any paperwork saying it's okay). However, what you haven't addressed or even tried to show is that those who come here undocumented would be mired in the same perpetual low-level status if they were allowed to come here legally. Consider how many of these people are paying their (often life) savings to a coyote, risking their lives to cross a desert in order to simply come here and work. Why not make them pay half as much to a government agency which processes them and lets them in legally? Reduce the wait, reduce the delay, reduce the hopelessness for a person who is aspiring to make minimum wage, and let them immigrate legally?
Where have I spoken about charity?
^^^^ this.
I am all for complete and open immigration. Given that ALL entitlements were removed. You want to get an education, pay for it, you want to get a job, make yourself viable within the system. You want a better life, work for it.
Beretta92FSLady
Regular Member
Ah, so that's how you personally define "empirical".
Things make a lot more sense now.
Empirical evidence is still opinion (There is more than one way to dice an onion) but you know that I am not an Absolutist.
marshaul
Campaign Veteran
No, in fact, I'd say you're the kind of relativist who, by extrapolation, denies all meaning. Everything is anything, amirite?