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Thread: Question Regarding RCW 9.41.050 (2)(a)

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    Regular Member Knowledge's Avatar
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    Question Regarding RCW 9.41.050 (2)(a)

    (2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

    I don't have a CPL.
    I read this two ways and I'm looking for clarification.
    The first way I see it is, I cannot have my gun in my holster at all because I don't have my CPL.
    The second way I see it is, I can have my gun in my holster, however because I don't have my CPL it must be unloaded.
    Which of these, if any, are correct? Thanks for the help.

    Peace

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    Activist Member SigGuy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knowledge View Post
    (2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

    I don't have a CPL.
    I read this two ways and I'm looking for clarification.
    The first way I see it is, I cannot have my gun in my holster at all because I don't have my CPL.
    The second way I see it is, I can have my gun in my holster, however because I don't have my CPL it must be unloaded.
    Which of these, if any, are correct? Thanks for the help.

    Peace
    It does not say anywhere that you can not have it holstered or has to be locked up while in the vehicle. It just says that it can't be carried loadedwithout a CPL. So to answer your question it can stay in the holster while it is not loaded.

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    Regular Member Knowledge's Avatar
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    Thanks.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    They Key Word is Loaded Pistol in this Section 9.41.050


    (2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and:
    (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person,
    (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or
    This is saying a loaded pistol is to be on ones person or the person with the CPL must be in the vehicle so the gun maybe anywhere inside the vehicle.

    (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.
    If you are away from the vehicle the loaded handgun must be locked with in and concealed from view.

    If you do not have a CPL then no loaded handgun in the vehicle
    Last edited by BigDave; 03-06-2012 at 04:22 PM.
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    Activist Member SigGuy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knowledge View Post
    Thanks.
    No problem. Do you plan on getting a CPL eventually? It's pretty easy and well worth it so you don't have to unload and reload constantly while driving. All you have to is go to the Snohomish county court house in Everett and talk to the sheriff records Dpt. They will give you the form, fingerprint you, and take the fee. Then if you clear the background check they are required to have it to you with in 30 days. I got mine in 3 weeks. You can do it through the city police s well but most of them are appointment only for fingerprinting and it's only certain days of the week. The sheriffs office does it Monday through Friday during normal business hours. No appointment needed.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Washington Practice Series TM
    Database Updated November 2011

    Washington Pattern Jury Instructions--Criminal
    2008 Edition Prepared by the Washington Supreme Court Committee On Jury Instructions, Hon. Sharon S. Armstrong, Co-Chair, Hon. William L. Downing, Co-Chair

    Part XIII. Miscellaneous Crimes
    WPIC CHAPTER 133. Weapon Offenses

    WPIC 133.05.01 Carrying or Placing a Loaded Pistol In a Vehicle—Elements

    To convict the defendant of the crime of carrying or placing a loaded pistol in a vehicle, each of the following four elements of the crime must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt:
    (1) That on or about __________, the defendant [knowingly] carried or placed a pistol in a vehicle;
    (2) That the pistol was loaded;
    (3) That
    (a) the defendant did not have a license to carry a concealed pistol, or
    (b) at the time the pistol was in the vehicle, the defendant was away from the vehicle and did not lock the pistol within the vehicle, concealed from view from outside the vehicle;
    and
    (4) That this act occurred in the [State of Washington][City of ][County of ].
    If you find from the evidence that elements (1), (2), and (4), and either of the alternative elements (3)(a) or (3)(b), have been proved beyond a reasonable doubt, then it will be your duty to return a verdict of guilty. To return a verdict of guilty, the jury need not be unanimous as to which of alternatives (3)(a) or (3)(b) has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt, as long as each juror finds that at least one alternative has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt.
    On the other hand, if, after weighing all of the evidence, you have a reasonable doubt as to any one of elements (1), (2), (3), or (4), then it will be your duty to return a verdict of not guilty.
    NOTE ON USE

    Use bracketed material as applicable. For a discussion of the bracketed word “knowingly,” see the Comment below.
    The instruction must be tailored to the facts and issues in each case. Use WPIC 10.02, Knowledge—Knowingly—Definition, as applicable, and WPIC 133.50, Pistol—Definition, with this instruction.
    The instruction is drafted for cases in which the jury needs to be instructed using two or more of the alternatives for element (3). Care must be taken to limit the alternatives to those that were included in the charging document and are supported by sufficient evidence. For directions on when and how to draft instructions with alternative elements, see the Introduction to WPIC 4.20 and the Note on Use and Comment to WPIC 4.23, Elements of the Crime—Alternative Elements—Alternative Means for Committing a Single Offense—Form. For the related jury interrogatory, see WPIC 190.09, Special Verdict Form—Elements with Alternatives. For any case in which substantial evidence supports only one of the alternatives in element (3), revise the instruction to remove references to alternative elements, following the format set forth in WPIC 4.21, Elements of the Crime—Form.
    In element (4), choose from among the bracketed phrases depending on whether the case is in superior, municipal, or district court. See the Introduction to WPIC 4.20. For a discussion of the phrase “this act” in element (4), see the Introduction to WPIC 4.20 and the Note on Use to WPIC 4.21, Elements of the Crime—Form.

    COMMENT

    RCW 9.41.050(2).
    Knowledge that the weapon was loaded is not an element of this offense, nor is the lack of such knowledge a defense. However, good faith and reasonable mistake of fact as to whether the weapon was loaded may be a defense. State v. Anderson, 54 Wn.App. 384, 773 P.2d 882 (1989).
    It is not clear whether the elements for this offense include knowledge that the weapon was in the vehicle. For a discussion of this issue in a related context, see the Comment to WPIC 133.05, Leaving an Unloaded Pistol in a Vehicle—Elements.
    The State is required to prove that the defendant carried or placed a loaded pistol in a vehicle but not both. State v. Thierry, 60 Wn.App. 445, 803 P.2d 844 (1991).
    In element (3), for clarification, the phrase “at the time the pistol was in the vehicle” is included in the second bracketed phrase. Two statutory phrases have been eliminated as redundant in the context of the instruction. The statute, RCW 9.41.050(2)(a), reads:

    A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.
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    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Regular Member Lammo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SigGuy23 View Post
    It does not say anywhere that you can not have it holstered or has to be locked up while in the vehicle. It just says that it can't be carried loadedwithout a CPL. So to answer your question it can stay in the holster while it is not loaded.
    True, but in this person's case the holster must be out in the open. Since he does not have a CPL (yet) even the unloaded pistol (which by definition for the purposes of this statute includes revolovers) cannot be carried concealed on the person. See RCW 9.41.250(1)(a).
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    Regular Member Knowledge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SigGuy23 View Post
    No problem. Do you plan on getting a CPL eventually?
    Yeah, I'm gonna get it here soon. I just thought it to be important to know, sense I don't have it yet.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lammo View Post
    True, but in this person's case the holster must be out in the open. Since he does not have a CPL (yet) even the unloaded pistol (which by definition for the purposes of this statute includes revolovers) cannot be carried concealed on the person. See RCW 9.41.250(1)(a).
    Let's not forget

    RCW 9.41.060
    Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.


    The provisions of RCW 9.41.050 shall not apply to:

    (1) Marshals, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens or their deputies, correctional personnel and community corrections officers as long as they are employed as such who have completed government-sponsored law enforcement firearms training and have been subject to a check through the national instant criminal background check system or an equivalent background check within the past five years, or other law enforcement officers of this state or another state. Correctional personnel and community corrections officers seeking the waiver provided for by this section are required to pay for any background check that is needed in order to exercise the waiver;

    (2) Members of the armed forces of the United States or of the national guard or organized reserves, when on duty;

    (3) Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed pistol;

    (4) Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of the person, if possessing, using, or carrying a pistol in the usual or ordinary course of the business;

    (5) Regularly enrolled members of any organization duly authorized to purchase or receive pistols from the United States or from this state;

    (6) Regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for the purpose of target shooting, when those members are at or are going to or from their places of target practice;

    (7) Regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for the purpose of modern and antique firearm collecting, when those members are at or are going to or from their collector's gun shows and exhibits;

    (8) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;

    (9) Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper; or

    (10) Law enforcement officers retired for service or physical disabilities, except for those law enforcement officers retired because of mental or stress-related disabilities. This subsection applies only to a retired officer who has: (a) Obtained documentation from a law enforcement agency within Washington state from which he or she retired that is signed by the agency's chief law enforcement officer and that states that the retired officer was retired for service or physical disability; and (b) not been convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity of a crime making him or her ineligible for a concealed pistol license.
    Last edited by BigDave; 03-06-2012 at 10:52 PM.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knowledge View Post
    (2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

    I don't have a CPL.
    I read this two ways and I'm looking for clarification.
    The first way I see it is, I cannot have my gun in my holster at all because I don't have my CPL.
    The second way I see it is, I can have my gun in my holster, however because I don't have my CPL it must be unloaded.
    Which of these, if any, are correct? Thanks for the help.

    Peace

    This is why it's a good thing to pay attention to the punctuation. The first two things you've underlined go together and shouldn't be separated. If they didn't belong together there would be a comma between them.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Yep. Highlighted for grammatical clarity:

    (2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.
    Except as per exceptions in RCW 9.41.060. The most interesting one of which is RCW 9.41.060(5) which I read to mean a dues paying member of a CMP registered club... how about you Navy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    Except as per exceptions in RCW 9.41.060. The most interesting one of which is RCW 9.41.060(5) which I read to mean a dues paying member of a CMP registered club... how about you Navy?
    Does the CMP deal in handguns? I think not...

  13. #13
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    It would appear as if CMP would NOT be an exception, because they do only receive rifles from the government:

    http://www.odcmp.com/sales.htm
    It may be true that they are only selling rifles at the moment, but if I remember correctly, this was how a lot of surplus 1911's came to market back in the 50's and 60's ????

    I think they only have surplus military rifles available now, but I do not think they are prohibited from selling pistols...or compitition .22's. Yes, the Army anyway used? to have compitition .22's and air guns, back when I was in from 1967 to 1974. I used to be on a rilfe team that used the compition .22 rifles.

  14. #14
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Maybe ask the question to the CMP or a CMP enrolled club? I'm not going to venture on any guesses whether CMP is an exception or not.
    I haven't found confirmation on the Federal part, but for the state part you need to be a licensed FFL. Wonder if a C&R would be good enough?
    Last edited by hermannr; 03-08-2012 at 02:43 PM.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    It would appear as if CMP would NOT be an exception, because they do only receive rifles from the government:

    http://www.odcmp.com/sales.htm
    One does not belong to CMP as much as they do the "Affiliated Clubs". Those "clubs" would more than qualify for the purposes of being organized for target shooting and competition purposes. They even hold "CMP" Matches. There are a "pant-load" of clubs in WA on both sides of the State as well as middle.

    The big "fun" is convincing a LEO that you are traveling too and from one of these facilities if you don't have a membership card. A 'range fee receipt' may not qualify as a "Membership".
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