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Thread: update on Waterford School district

  1. #1
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    update on Waterford School district

    I was finally contacted by Mr.Beaver finally after almost a year. He said there schools are gun and weapons free. If your voting,attending Parent teachers confrences,Sporting events etc.You will be asked to take it back to your vehicle.The police will be called and you will leave the premesis i informed him that school property is public not private he understands this. I informed him of the Michigan state police legal update #86 he knows about it. He clearly stated there lawyers have looked heavily into it and because its a gun and weapons free area he says the lawyers can make an individual put it into there vehicle. I asked him if im voting your going to call the poilice sir his answer was yes you cant carry in a school or weapons free zone but you can have it in your car its for the pupils safety we dont want anyone to get hurt.Im personally trying to see what my friends in the open carry world think. Thank you army74

  2. #2
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    It's a debatable matter and probably won't be resolved by SB 58 or CADL v. MOC.

    To solve it would mean a modification to MCL 123.1101 and/or another lawsuit. Total cost would likely exceed $20k.

    Got some $ to help us start a lawsuit?

    FWIW, I think chances of success under this lawsuit would be less than the CADL case as local school boards get their authority directly from the State Board of Education -- unlike CADL which was formed from Lansing and Ingham County.

    If the CADL suit is lost -- this matter is almost assuredly lost as well. If the CADL suit is won, this is still an open question.
    Last edited by TheQ; 03-07-2012 at 11:09 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Until you (everyone, not just army) recieve something in writing, keep carrying. You dont gain anything by complying with tyrants.

    PDinDetroit has a cite to the law that says it is a felony for someone to prevent someone from voting.

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    Louis Feurino

    This is the attorney for the waterford police department that mislead the school district into thinking that it was illegal to carry in the schools. He claimed that since 425o was written most recently that it "WINS" over 237a.

    LFeurino@twp.waterford.mi.us
    Last edited by stainless1911; 03-07-2012 at 11:23 AM.

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    wateford im getting my cpl back this summer now that i have the money to do so

    im going to carry no matter what my son runs track and plays football they have scrimmages in south lyon,walled lk,warren so im going to continue to carry the way i have in the past in a respectful manner. I remember i had this issue with the PSD and the former Pontiac Police Dept. it was only a few officers. He stated stainless he doesnt have to go with the michigan state police update #86 we will see how it goes. I dont have money growing on trees phillip im just saying.If i had the extra 20,000 iwould give it to moc because everyone has helped me in the past that includes glock,scott webb,and rob hariss sorry if i mispelled it rob and countless others ill keep fighting for my rights and when i move to fla im going to try and get it where you can OC there.

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    Keep up the good fight army. The only ones who can protect the kids from gunmen are open carriers. The only ones that can protect our rights are the ones who exercise them. The only way to do this, is to stick together.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    So how can the Kent CO prosecute not find anything to charge the guy who OC'd while voting but the Waterford prosecutor can?
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Yep.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    We need a strong state organization like Ohio has with Buckeye Firearms association and Georgia's Georgia Carry. These orgs have united OC and CC guys and don't seem to have any problem financing lawsuits, and have been VERY effective at the state level. MRCGO, MGO and MOC need to be come together, then the funds, awareness and organization would all be there to end some of the BS going on in MI. Right now with all the groups separate we are not getting results.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  10. #10
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    MRCGO, MGO and MOC need to be come together, then the funds, awareness and organization would all be there to end some of the BS going on in MI. Right now with all the groups separate we are not getting results.
    MOC and MCRGO work together closely in lobbying. Just recently the President of MOC became a member of MCRGO and MCRGO's head lobbyist became a member of MOC.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  11. #11
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    That is a trend that we need to continue. I see the gaps between gun owners closing.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Vmaxx's Avatar
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    I opened carried at a Waterford school to vote "Donelson Hill's Elementary" with no issues. There were only a hand full of people there & I'm sure most saw me OC. They even had to call the township because there was a #24 next to my name, meaning as a new voter there they needed a full signature on file.

  13. #13
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    MOC and MCRGO work together closely in lobbying. Just recently the President of MOC became a member of MCRGO and MCRGO's head lobbyist became a member of MOC.
    That's great news, hopefully it will continue. I am not putting down any of these groups, it just seems we could be a lot more effective with 1 large state org (like BFA or GC) instead of splitting resources among several smaller groups. It just infuriates me when I see that the only thing standing between us and our rights is the money needed to fight to get those rights back.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    +1

  15. #15
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    That's great news, hopefully it will continue. I am not putting down any of these groups, it just seems we could be a lot more effective with 1 large state org (like BFA or GC) instead of splitting resources among several smaller groups. It just infuriates me when I see that the only thing standing between us and our rights is the money needed to fight to get those rights back.
    I don't think having just one group is feasible given we have a very diverse focus in these groups. I do think it is very possible for us to work together as one voice on some issues -- this includes legislation and court cases.
    Last edited by TheQ; 03-07-2012 at 04:36 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  16. #16
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    You're right Q. The only way it will happen, is if you leaders make it happen though. I would suggest a quarterly "Gun Summit Meeting" of sorts.

  17. #17
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by army74 View Post
    I was finally contacted by Mr.Beaver finally after almost a year. He said there schools are gun and weapons free. If your voting,attending Parent teachers confrences,Sporting events etc.You will be asked to take it back to your vehicle.The police will be called and you will leave the premesis i informed him that school property is public not private he understands this. I informed him of the Michigan state police legal update #86 he knows about it. He clearly stated there lawyers have looked heavily into it and because its a gun and weapons free area he says the lawyers can make an individual put it into there vehicle. I asked him if im voting your going to call the poilice sir his answer was yes you cant carry in a school or weapons free zone but you can have it in your car its for the pupils safety we dont want anyone to get hurt.Im personally trying to see what my friends in the open carry world think. Thank you army74
    If they prevent you from voting they are committing a crime.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  18. #18
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    What I want to know, is how they intend on keeping the kids safe from gun violence. So far, they have only prevented one person, whom they have met and through various processes is known as knowledgeable in the laws and not at all a threat to anyone, from carrying there.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    It's a debatable matter and probably won't be resolved by SB 58 or CADL v. MOC.

    To solve it would mean a modification to MCL 123.1101 and/or another lawsuit. Total cost would likely exceed $20k.

    Got some $ to help us start a lawsuit?

    FWIW, I think chances of success under this lawsuit would be less than the CADL case as local school boards get their authority directly from the State Board of Education -- unlike CADL which was formed from Lansing and Ingham County.

    If the CADL suit is lost -- this matter is almost assuredly lost as well. If the CADL suit is won, this is still an open question.
    My 2 cents on this:

    We have power mongers in control of most school districts, this we know already, so the way we beat this illegal practice is to take it apart in pieces.
    1) We demonstrate to the public that the only people the law currently protects are CRIMINALS by forcing a large group of unarmed citizens, teachers, and children together in a barrel like "fish" to be easily shot! The current law has teachers defending against armed gunmen by: taping/gluing paper over the class room doors and windows so the bad guy(s) can't see in! Wow, that makes me feel safer - (NOT) - how about you? I and most parents/citizens I know would much rather allow those teachers/staff members who wish to carry a weapon to protect themselves and the kids to do so legally.

    2) We work with the Teachers Associations, the service employee unions, etc. to promote new laws to allow them to carry.

    3) Once the public sees that this works via drops in school shootings/violence in MI (and there will be a drop as the whack jobs will move on to theaters and other FREE FOR ALL ZONES) their arguments [school districts] for not allowing the rest of the public to carry in schools becomes much, much weaker.

    That's how I see it, How do you Guys & Gals?
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 03-07-2012 at 05:10 PM.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    I think that someone who intends to shoot up a school has no intentions or expectations of living through it.

    Knowing that, the only way to stop someone like that, is to shoot them. The only way to do that, is to have a gun in place before an active shooter arrives.

  21. #21
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I don't think having just one group is feasible given we have a very diverse focus in these groups. I do think it is very possible for us to work together as one voice on some issues -- this includes legislation and court cases.
    But do we really have a diverse focus? Aren't we all going for the same thing- 2A rights? Why are these groups divided on issues?

    When you have 1 larger group they carry weight, they are known by name and they have influence. When you spread that over several smaller groups you lose that weight. 1 state wide org with a big war chest is better than several smaller ones who can easily be bankrupted by just a couple court cases. .

    Groups like MOC, MGO, and MRCGO are great groups, but what have they really accomplished lately? Compare their success in both legislation and lawsuits to that of Buckeye Firearms or Georgia Carry in the last few years and you will see these larger statewide groups have had MUCH more success in these areas. It is a commonly know fact that ohio politicians fear the BFA more than the NRA, we don't have that here.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  22. #22
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Not all the State groups whole heartedly support OC -- nor will they any time soon. What would you have me and MOC do? Forget about OC for the sake of having one gun org?
    Last edited by TheQ; 03-07-2012 at 09:37 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit_fan View Post
    But do we really have a diverse focus? Aren't we all going for the same thing- 2A rights? Why are these groups divided on issues?

    When you have 1 larger group they carry weight, they are known by name and they have influence. When you spread that over several smaller groups you lose that weight. 1 state wide org with a big war chest is better than several smaller ones who can easily be bankrupted by just a couple court cases. .

    Groups like MOC, MGO, and MRCGO are great groups, but what have they really accomplished lately? Compare their success in both legislation and lawsuits to that of Buckeye Firearms or Georgia Carry in the last few years and you will see these larger statewide groups have had MUCH more success in these areas. It is a commonly know fact that ohio politicians fear the BFA more than the NRA, we don't have that here.
    DF - You nailed it - this was the intent of this case (CADL v MOC) in the first place. They picked the weakest group to attack. Something that figured into their choice was their agents monitioring MGO/MCRGO/OCDO/MOC forums and they could see the infighting. They knew MOC most likely would be left to stand alone and for the most part they are correct. You are correct that a unified front is needed, sadly until the CC folks start losing their rights I doubt that will happen. If and when it does it may be too little too late .

    I have given more than I could afford to this case and so have some others too. But the majority us have done nothing or contributed a single penny which is what the gun grabbers in Lansing were counting on...sad...so sad...Carry on while you still can friends.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    But the CCers are the ones without the rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    But the CCers are the ones without the rights.
    I know that, you know that, most OCers understand that, but they CCers do not! Hence lies the problem. We fight for everyone's rights. They see themselves (not all of them, but some) as the "special chosen people". As such they don't give a damn about anything until it lands in their laps! Sounds a lot like our politicians, doesn't it? Hell they forget that most of us are CPL holders! Yet we fight for their privileges too!
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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