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update on Waterford School district

detroit_fan

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
1,172
Location
Monroe, Michigan, USA
I don't think having just one group is feasible given we have a very diverse focus in these groups. I do think it is very possible for us to work together as one voice on some issues -- this includes legislation and court cases.

But do we really have a diverse focus? Aren't we all going for the same thing- 2A rights? Why are these groups divided on issues?

When you have 1 larger group they carry weight, they are known by name and they have influence. When you spread that over several smaller groups you lose that weight. 1 state wide org with a big war chest is better than several smaller ones who can easily be bankrupted by just a couple court cases. .

Groups like MOC, MGO, and MRCGO are great groups, but what have they really accomplished lately? Compare their success in both legislation and lawsuits to that of Buckeye Firearms or Georgia Carry in the last few years and you will see these larger statewide groups have had MUCH more success in these areas. It is a commonly know fact that ohio politicians fear the BFA more than the NRA, we don't have that here.
 

TheQ

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Aug 2, 2010
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Lansing, Michigan
Not all the State groups whole heartedly support OC -- nor will they any time soon. What would you have me and MOC do? Forget about OC for the sake of having one gun org?
 
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Glock9mmOldStyle

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 21, 2010
Messages
2,038
Location
Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
But do we really have a diverse focus? Aren't we all going for the same thing- 2A rights? Why are these groups divided on issues?

When you have 1 larger group they carry weight, they are known by name and they have influence. When you spread that over several smaller groups you lose that weight. 1 state wide org with a big war chest is better than several smaller ones who can easily be bankrupted by just a couple court cases. .

Groups like MOC, MGO, and MRCGO are great groups, but what have they really accomplished lately? Compare their success in both legislation and lawsuits to that of Buckeye Firearms or Georgia Carry in the last few years and you will see these larger statewide groups have had MUCH more success in these areas. It is a commonly know fact that ohio politicians fear the BFA more than the NRA, we don't have that here.

DF - You nailed it - this was the intent of this case (CADL v MOC) in the first place. They picked the weakest group to attack. Something that figured into their choice was their agents monitioring MGO/MCRGO/OCDO/MOC forums and they could see the infighting. They knew MOC most likely would be left to stand alone and for the most part they are correct. You are correct that a unified front is needed, sadly until the CC folks start losing their rights I doubt that will happen. If and when it does it may be too little too late :(.

I have given more than I could afford to this case and so have some others too. But the majority us have done nothing or contributed a single penny which is what the gun grabbers in Lansing were counting on...sad...so sad...Carry on while you still can friends.
 

Glock9mmOldStyle

Campaign Veteran
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Apr 21, 2010
Messages
2,038
Location
Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
But the CCers are the ones without the rights.

I know that, you know that, most OCers understand that, but they CCers do not! Hence lies the problem. We fight for everyone's rights. They see themselves (not all of them, but some) as the "special chosen people". As such they don't give a damn about anything until it lands in their laps! Sounds a lot like our politicians, doesn't it? Hell they forget that most of us are CPL holders! Yet we fight for their privileges too!
 

detroit_fan

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
1,172
Location
Monroe, Michigan, USA
Not all the State groups whole heartedly support OC -- nor will they any time soon. What would you have me and MOC do? Forget about OC for the sake of having one gun org?

That right there is THE problem! The other state groups i mentioned have managed to pull the OC and CC people together and it has resulted in great results at the state level for them. I'm not suggesting getting rid of MOC, in fact I would say MOC is the most active in terms of actually fighting for the 2A here in MI(but probably the least known, unfortunately). I just wish the 3 could come together, it would be so good for the cause here.

I guess what really got me fired up about this was the $20,000 number that was mentioned to fight a lawsuit. We have over 9.8 million residents in MI, there is no reason that 20,000 people should not be able to come together and donate $1 each. That's .2% of our population! If we could get all 3 groups to come together, 20K should not be a problem to raise, but it is when everyone is split into smaller groups. Politicians are scared of the NRA, they are scared of BFA, they are scared of GC, but are they really scared of MOC, MGO or MCRGO? I don't think they are, and that's why nothing is getting done here. jmo.
 
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army74

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Messages
285
Location
Pontiac, Michigan, USA
Vmaxx im glad they didnt bother you most wont its a select few. i vote at the office where the security director normally is it use to be mccrary. You vote at precint 24. i vote at 26 you must live very close to where i do.
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
That right there is THE problem! The other state groups i mentioned have managed to pull the OC and CC people together and it has resulted in great results at the state level for them.

Yeah, just look at California...:uhoh:

All kidding aside, Michigan is an "odd" state. On the one hand, it has very strict firearms law: Registration, No OC in vehicle w/out CPL, etc. It wasn't that long ago you could only transport to your home, range, and place of repair or purchase. On the other hand, OC with a CPL beats just about every other state: you can legally OC just about everywhere. The issue is in the movement from the one hand to the other. Many people, including many firearm owners, believe we are still under "rules" from the days of long ago and refuse to acknowledge that the state of firearms law in Michigan has drastically changed. They maintain beliefs that simply aren't true. In order for state firearm groups to work together is to shake off the shackles of "old thinking" and see that if we would just try to logically justify the restrictions that are currently in place, through both accurate and inaccurate interpretation, we would see that none of them make any sense. The fact that a thin piece of cloth makes carrying a firearm acceptable is laughable... but look how many people still hold this belief. I, unfortunately, think it is going to be quite some time before people actually start to think logically about firearms instead of refusing to think at all.
In that vein, I think that the only way to effect change is to do just as Q exemplified: get key people in decision making positions to notice us (MOC/ OCers in general). It is happening. If you think about it, every person above the age of 6 in Kent County now knows that it is legal for a CPL holder to OC a pistol in a school, and, if they choose to do so in Kent County, the prosecutor won't charge a person for doing so. This is monumental... whether the locals agree with the law or not, they know it's the law. Yes, the political process is slow... which, depending on the issue can be good or bad. But, remember the framers designed the process to be slow so that people don't get all caught up in every passing fad. But, the strength of OC is seen in the number of people we have here, getting information, and the increased interest in the issue from all points of view. We are getting there... it may take some time, but we are surely making progress.
 
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DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
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Jun 20, 2008
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Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
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DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
So how do we take the blinders off Waterford? Their mentality is somewhere between a drug addict who knows he is sick but doesnt want to quit, and someone contemplating suicide.

Easy: Have someone articulate, well dressed, without an order of Trespass, willing to buy legal representation, and no aversion to being tossed into jail walk into the school a number of times to vote. It would also help if they sent the head of security and the school spokesperson to the school and had them state that the prosecutor was going to charge the OCer, and of course, it would be great if the prosecutor would state publicly the legality of a CPL holder OCing in a school. Oh yeah, it wouldn't hurt if every major news organization ran the story as if the person were going to be charged, and then later print publicly that no, the school was wrong. This would certainly help.
 

stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
I mean we as gunowners, statewide, need to pick a couple specific things, and work on it till its done. You should be able to randomly stop someone who is OC, hunting, or at the range, ask them what our specific agenda is and its progress, and they should reply with an immediate and accurate response.
 

TheQ

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
I mean we as gunowners, statewide, need to pick a couple specific things, and work on it till its done. You should be able to randomly stop someone who is OC, hunting, or at the range, ask them what our specific agenda is and its progress, and they should reply with an immediate and accurate response.

We're doing that. MCRGO, SAFR, and MOC are ALL actively working (right now) to get legislation passed so just about anyone with a CPL can carry open or concealed in Michigan.
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
I mean we as gunowners, statewide, need to pick a couple specific things, and work on it till its done. You should be able to randomly stop someone who is OC, hunting, or at the range, ask them what our specific agenda is and its progress, and they should reply with an immediate and accurate response.

I don't think it would take people more than 5 minutes on either OCDO or MOC to know what "our agenda" is.
:)
 
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