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Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Frankly, I do not recall ANY report stating that Zimmerman pursued him. Now, do pay attention to the difference between 'report,' and 'conjecture not based in a known fact.'

Hmm. Maybe you should listen to the first 911 call, where the kid begins to run, Zimmerman is asked whether he is pursuing, and he responds in the affirmative.

Now, do pay attention to the difference between "recording of actual events" and "report".
 

Gil223

Regular Member
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Jan 5, 2012
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1,392
Location
Weber County Utah
Argumentative condescension and a display of a personal sense of omniscience...

are conditions that, in my mind, justify activating my ignore list. Unlike some people, I don't always have to be wright. I find such attitudes to be wearying. Pax...
 

wrightme

Regular Member
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Oct 19, 2008
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5,574
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Fallon, Nevada, USA
Frankly, I do not recall ANY report stating that Zimmerman pursued him. Now, do pay attention to the difference between 'report,' and 'conjecture not based in a known fact.'

Of course you don't. It's very hard to hear with your head "up and locked"...

Hmm. Maybe you should listen to the first 911 call, where the kid begins to run, Zimmerman is asked whether he is pursuing, and he responds in the affirmative.

Now, do pay attention to the difference between "recording of actual events" and "report".

are conditions that, in my mind, justify activating my ignore list. Unlike some people, I don't always have to be wright. I find such attitudes to be wearying. Pax...
Really? That seems to accurately portray your methods in these many forum topics; you have to be right, and talk down to dissenting opinions.
But, that was simply your 'opinion,' and opinions aren't based in facts, are they. :rolleyes:




Yes, I have not listened to the 911 call. That wasn't what you claimed, was it. Had you instead stated that the recorded call gave the personal admission by Zimmerman, then you would be correct, right?
@marshaul. I DID pay attention to the difference between 'recording of actual events' and 'report.' Gil didn't.
 
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jbone

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,230
Location
WA

Nothing I say!

Involvement is based on this Administration’s agenda. Remember they refused to look further into the Black Panther’s voter intimidation, but shoe on other foot and they come knocking.


Seems to me were learning very little, or anything new of the incident, just spin. Info is coming mostly from bias sources, and racially charged media reporting. The feds are sticking their nose in far too prematurely all because the work black is being used in the news. Unless the tapes hold real damaging evidence against Zimmerman in a racially motivated way, I’d say the DOJ involvement is BS, not their place. Right now there is nothing to support criminal wrong doing. Looks civil as of right now!


The media should shut up and stop tainting until more facts surface, if there are any more.
 
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Steeler-gal

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2011
Messages
560
Location
Fairfax County, VA
Frankly, I do not recall ANY report stating that Zimmerman pursued him. Now, do pay attention to the difference between 'report,' and 'conjecture not based in a known fact.'

He tells the dispatcher on the 911 he called that he was following Trayvon. The dispatcher then told him not to do that.


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jbone

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WA
He tells the dispatcher on the 911 he called that he was following Trayvon. The dispatcher then told him not to do that.

Facts; but far from a crime, reason for arrest, or BS FBI intervention, wouldn't you agree?
 

Gil223

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Weber County Utah
Facts; but far from a crime, reason for arrest, or BS FBI intervention, wouldn't you agree?

Again... if all is as reported, there very well may be a crime. There is no 'reason for arrest' yet, and won't be until there is some hard evidence produced, which doesn't come until after an investigation has been completed. "Investigation" is what the third letter in FBI stands for, but I don't know that - initially - this rises to the level of a federal crime. However, since the confrontation resulted in the death of a black youth and the act has received overkill (no pun intended) in the media, it may have drawn presidential attention, and the word was passed on down the DOJ line. It's possible that this was a racially-motivated crime, and should have federal attention. So far, only one "eye-witness" has come forward, and her statement is not supportive of Zimmerman's claim. She could be lying to get her name in the media... or simply mistaken in her perception of what she saw. Zimmerman could be just oozing the milk of human kindness from every pore in his body, and his story is gospel true. The bottom line is, a kid is dead as the result of action taken by NW Zimmerman, and the only question remaining is - Was there the least justifiability in his having taken that deadly action? Pax...
 

09jisaac

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
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Location
Louisa, Kentucky
I really don't know why everyone is hung up on him being neighborhood watch either. Does that really matter? If anything it should make his story more credible because being in such a position he had reason to believe he was suppose to protect other people's life and/or property. Most is acting like because NW is suppose to observe and report means that a citizen cannot look further into a situation (that he does not know is a crime, yet). If the situation is exactly Zimmerman trying to talk to Treyvon, then Treyvon turned violent and Zimmerman had no choice but to use lethal force to stop the threat then the use of deadly force is justified. It doesn't matter if Zimmerman was in NW, it doesn't matter that police told him he didn't need to chase Treyvon.

I really don't like this cower in fear of something that could be completely harmless and allow the police to figure it out. If you think someone is up to no good but they could be doing something completely harmless (like walking home after dark) then I say you have every right to talk to them, regardless of anything else.
 

sraacke

Regular Member
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Jul 20, 2008
Messages
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Saint Gabriel, Louisiana, USA
Still very scarce on actual details- whether it was as some claim, that the kid was attacking him somehow-or not-but Sanford PD seems to side with the NW cpt.

The thing most here keep misquoting is the "Neighborhood Watch Captain" thing.
Zimmerman was not part of any organized or recognized community Neighborhood Watch program. He was a self appointed "watchman" who took it upon himself to call in suspicious activity in his gated community. That is all. He could have called himself the Neighborhood Chief of Police or the Sheriff of Nottingham but that would not have been true either.
Calling this guy a Neighborhood Watch Captain does nothing but put those who are part of recognized and active NW programs in a bad light.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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Dec 14, 2009
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In My Coffee
If the 911 call is accurate, and Zimmerman stated "f*cking c00ns," then he better hope he isn't brought into a courtroom because he will be found guilty. He told the dispatcher that he was pursuing the teenager, which is why the dispatcher told him not to. The 911 call sounded like Zimmerman was attempting to cover all of his legal bases, "reaching for his waistband," "he looks like he is on drugs," etc.

I wonder if when the teenager was reaching for his waistband if he was reaching in his pocket for some of those Skittles. This case will pan itself out, I am sure. The State seems to have dropped the ball, and so the Fed's have to come in, and do a proper investigation; doesn't bode well for the whole "sovereign state" argument, in this case.
 

HankT

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The State seems to have dropped the ball, and so the Fed's have to come in, and do a proper investigation; doesn't bode well for the whole "sovereign state" argument, in this case.

The primary failure is that of the Sanford Police Department. It has failed to conduct a complete and thorough investigation of the shooting. And it has failed to divulge important details it knows to the public and the press.

The investigation was botched right from the start, with Sgt. Anthony Raimondo and continued all the way up to Chief Bill Lee, Jr.

Yesterday the Sanford City Commission gave a vote of no-confidence vote to Chief Lee. They would have fired him but lacked authority to do so. Chief Lee will probably be gone anyway soon.

This is not the only recent case of poor investigation and incompetance by Sanford PD. The department needs overhauling. Else, it'll just happen again and again.

Sanford PD must make public its investigation findings in this case immediately. It wouldn't surpise me if it were guilty of obstruction of justice or malfeasance of some kind.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
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12,452
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White Oak Plantation
Well, the FBI is involved.

Sadusky: Door number one, you go to prison for a very long time. Door number two, we get the Declaration back and you go to prison for a very long time.
Ben Gates: Is there another door that doesn't involve me going to prison?
Sadusky: Someone has to go to prison, Ben.

Yepper, someone has to go to prison.
 

jbone

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,230
Location
WA
Again... if all is as reported, there very well may be a crime.

Wrong, if all is as report as reported (at the time of my post), there very well may be no crime.

Just look at the latest news reports, the media has this swinging, others are been offered up for sacrifice, social justice is consuming the investigation.
 

ccwinstructor

Centurion
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
919
Location
Yuma, Arizona, USA
I thought he said he was following, not pursuing

Hmm. Maybe you should listen to the first 911 call, where the kid begins to run, Zimmerman is asked whether he is pursuing, and he responds in the affirmative.

Now, do pay attention to the difference between "recording of actual events" and "report".

Following is not pursuing. There is a difference.
 

ccwinstructor

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Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
919
Location
Yuma, Arizona, USA
Trayvon Martin was 6 foot 3 inches tall

Because it was. He put himself into the picture.

That may not be completely relevant, but it does change many perceptions of what was going on.

The pictures of Trayvon seem quite misleading. I am beginning to wonder about the weight as well. The autopsy should give us some facts, but we do not have access to it yet.

It has been reported that Trayvon's school records have been locked on orders from the families attorney.

While this article is clearly giving the Martin faction's representations, it does say that he was 6 foot 3 inches:

As the controversy grows, so does the number of voices disputing the official version that watch captain George Zimmerman gave to police: that the 6-foot, 3-inch, 140-pound teen assaulted him when Zimmerman, 28, tried to question him. In fear for his life, he pulled Kel Tek .9mm handgun from his waistband and shot.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-trayvon-martin-family-20120315,0,2583523.story
 

ccwinstructor

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Jul 11, 2008
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Location
Yuma, Arizona, USA
Here is an article about facts being ignored or suppressed in the case

I figured there was more to this than was being reported in the MSM. I am hopeful that more information as to the details of the physical encounter are made public as what has been put out there thus far, except by an essentially anonymous commenter claiming an attack by the dead youth, certainly looks bad for the shooter.

Once again, these details have been ignored or changed by the media.

1.The witness reports that George Zimmerman was on the ground and Trayvon is on top of him punching him.
2.The witness says that George Zimmerman was screaming and yelling for help.
3.Police arrive and find Zimmerman bleeding on his face and the back of his head. He also has had grass stains on his back. All this confirms the story told by Zimmerman and the witness.
4.Police play the 911 tape for Trayvon Martin’s father, who tells police that the voice screaming is not the voice of his son.

The neighborhood this took place in has seen a lot of crime. Would you be surprised to learn that there were eight burglaries, nine thefts, and a shooting just in the past year? In fact, the local homeowners’ association reports that George Zimmerman actually caught one thief and aided in the apprehension of other criminals. The Miami Herald wrote about this on March 17th. None of the thousands of articles and cable news segments that came after, thought this was important.

http://www.examiner.com/charleston-...t-trayvon-martin?cid=PROD-redesign-right-next
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
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Mar 6, 2011
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California
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my understanding of most "stand your ground" laws.

You have no duty to retreat from any place that you can lawfully be, and should you be threatened with death/grievous bodily harm while in a place that you can lawfully be then you may lawfully use lethal force to defend yourself. To me this means that I "can" follow someone who "might" cause bodily harm to me so long as I only follow him in places that I may lawfully go to. Should the person who I'm following (but not actively provoking; and no I would not say that simply following someone is actively provoking them) then decide to threaten me with death/grevious bodily harm I am TECHNICALLY able to defend myself since I am at a place where I can lawfully be and I have no duty to retreat from any place where I may lawfully be.

If my above understanding of "stand your ground" laws (obviously they are going to vary slightly from state-to-state, but that's my general understanding of them) is correct, then regardless of how "stupid" it was to follow him, nothing illegal has been done. Of course this isn't to say that what he did wasn't illegal, but that following a suspect (even if told not to by the 911 operator; who has no authority to give him orders) and then having to defend one's self with lethal force isn't illegal.

Of course the investigation could uncover additional information (such as if he were to have grabbed the suspect and thus been the one to initiate the confrontation), but with what little we know (that he followed the suspect only to then claim that he shot him in self defense) I don't see how it is against the law even if it wasn't the smartest of things to do.

Also I agree that the media is greatly distorting this case. For example the pictures that the show of the dead boy I would think that Zimmerman shot a 13-14 year old and not a 17 year old. Lets see a picture of the "victim" that is up-to-date and wearing his everyday clothes. Let's also see some more information about Zimmerman, what he has done for the community, community crime rates, etc. But most importantly, we ("we" really being whoever is looking at trying the case, followed by the jury should it go to court) need to know what exactly happened leading up to the shooting. Instead I feel that this is starting to turn into a "villify the CCer/gun at all costs" incident and is losing focus on the facts.
 
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ccwinstructor

Centurion
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Messages
919
Location
Yuma, Arizona, USA
You have nailed it.

The media and Martin partisans have created an impression that George Zimmerman chased down a little black boy, beat him, and then shot him. Any contrary evidence tends to disappear in the growing cries to short circuit the legal process and convict Zimmerman now.

I do not believe it is a coincidence that this works to the political advantage of the administration and the Democrats. it energizes their base.
 
H

Herr Heckler Koch

Guest
911 transcripts are here with Officer Smith's "Zimmerman was also bleeding from ... "

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/20/911-calls-paint-picture-of-chaos-after-florida-teen-is-shot/
Officers arrived on the scene at 7:17 p.m. ET, according to a police report.

Officers Timothy Smith and Ricardo Alayo said they noted a black male in a gray hooded sweatshirt lying face-down in the grass, as well as a white male in the area.

"Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject and was still armed," Smith wrote in a police report.

Smith said he asked Zimmerman to hand over the weapon, a Kel Tec 9 mm, and handcuffed him.

"While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and he was covered in grass, as if he was laying on his back on the ground," Smith wrote in the police report. "Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and the back of the head."

The officers also made several attempts to revive Martin.

When police put Zimmerman in the back of the cruiser, he said, "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me," according to the police report.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
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11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Following is not pursuing. There is a difference.

No, there's not. I was going to ask you what the difference is, but this time you're so unequivocally wrong I'm not going to play any games.

NOAD said:
pursue |pərˈso͞o|
verb ( pursues , pursuing , pursued ) [ with obj. ]
1 follow (someone or something) in order to catch or attack them

lol.

While we're playing games:

Kel Tek .9mm handgun from his waistband and shot.

.9mm? Hah! Talk about a tiny gun.

And Kel Tek? Who's that? Presumably you're referring to Kel-Tec. :p

Were you the poster whose status as a bona fide firearms instructor I recently questioned? :lol:
 
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