• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Another Reason to Not Trust That Kick In Your Door

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
http://www.news9.com/story/17114410/third-brother-implicated-in-southwest-okc-home-invasion

SNIP
According to court documents, around 3:30 a.m. on Sunday, March 4, four to six suspects kicked in the door of an apartment at 1310 West I-240 Service Rd. claiming to be police officers and DEA agents.

I just saw this on my local news and figured I would share it. Looks like more criminals are getting smarter and hiding behind the LEO disguise. Hopefully actual LEO stops using these practices (I know, I know) before more citizens start shooting at ANYONE who comes through their door. We've already seen multiple cases of SWAT killing people when a different method could/should have been used and it's only a matter of time before citizens actually kill LEOs because they don't believe the LEOs when they announce (while barging through the door).
 

ManInBlack

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
1,551
Location
SW Idaho
A lot of times, the statists tell me that the public sector is responsible for innovations that the private sector either could never or would never produce. In this case, I am forced to agree: the public-sector home-invasion gangs' no-knock warrant techniques have been perfected to the point that the private-sector home-invasion gangs are picking it up.
 

Glock9mmOldStyle

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 21, 2010
Messages
2,038
Location
Taylor, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
A sad state of affairs in our country.

anyone. ANY one, comes across my threshold uninvited will take incoming fire

^^^

Yep! This crap of just kicking doors in with no warning/knock is only going to get innocents & LEO shot/killed. At 3AM you burst through my door chances are you will be bursted right back out! :eek:

In the instance linked below Detroit SWAT threw a flash bang through the living room window of a home where family members were sleeping then rushed/battered the door down immediately after and entered. In the smoke and chaos that ensued, SWAT managed to shoot an unarmed 7yr old girl in the head. Later it was found that the person they thought was there was not; and that both the police department & camera crew had lied on the record as to what had really went on in the house.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/18/AR2010051805853.html
 
Last edited:

TechnoWeenie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
2,084
Location
, ,
anyone. ANY one, comes across my threshold uninvited will take incoming fire

See sig.


I just picked up a 10.5" barreled 30 cal. lead accelerator...

I was able to bumpfire it with all my rounds hitting within a 3-4 ft diameter, @ 50 yds... I should be able to keep all those @ COM ~20-30ft :D
 

GhostOfJefferson

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
137
Location
Lewis Center, OH
Well, to be frank, the police have nobody to blame but themselves. When they turned into armed gangs of thugs and disregarded our basic rights with this gestapo crap, they placed themselves directly in the line of "friendly fire". Maybe they should stop acting like their police state tactics have any place in a free society, and give up this authoritarian and highly dangerous practice. Until that happens I have no sympathy for any of them that happen to catch a 230 grain copper jacketed lead gnat from a scared little old lady who they frightened out of bed in the middle of the night. Act like criminals, get treated like criminals, no exceptions.

It's a damn shame that they continue to kill and/or harm innocent people like this. And we can thank the "war on some drugs" and it's supporters directly for it.
 

bigdaddy1

Regular Member
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
1,320
Location
Southsider der hey
Not really a new development, gangs have been copying this technique for at least a few years. I remember reading a story about a homeowner killing 1 invader wearing a vest and wounding another during an attempted home invasion. I hope I never have to defend myself from such an attach, but I think I would also shoot first.
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
Not really a new development, gangs have been copying this technique for at least a few years. I remember reading a story about a homeowner killing 1 invader wearing a vest and wounding another during an attempted home invasion. I hope I never have to defend myself from such an attach, but I think I would also shoot first.

True it isn't really "new" but this was simply another example of it happening, helping to show that it is becoming more common and that only issues are going to arise from it.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Frankly, I think the next big gun rights push, instead of castle laws and constitutional carry, ought to be laws restricting the police from no-knock and short-knock dynamic raids.

As it stands, we have the right to own guns in the home, even as exercise of the right to meaningfully use those guns for defense within the home becomes as dangerous as the criminals themselves are.

I can't think of a single scenario which ever happens in real life which justifies the use of such tactics. However, I'm sure we could allow exceptions for imminent hostage executions or bomb detonations, for the fantasists who believe that police might ever be in a situation to stop such occurrences.

Incidentally, the use of such tactics is, at this point, defended solely in the name of officer safety. Nobody is willing any longer to argue that the risk of shooting an innocent grandmother is justified because someone might flush some weed down the toilet. It's just down to "officer safety" -- which is completely backwards. Ask Jarrod Shivers if kicking down doors made his job any safer. They do this stuff solely because some asshat neocon decided a "war on drugs" requires military tactics, and because suiting up in battle rattle and kicking in doors is, I quote, "better than sex".

It is my right, understood since at least the time of Blackstone, to treat as criminals intent on harming me and my family, any person who invades my home with force. This right is necessarily implied by the right of self-defense, as was easily understood centuries ago. What good are protections from civil suit if you're dead because your right to self-defense was incomplete in the first place?
 
Last edited:

TechnoWeenie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
2,084
Location
, ,
Arm pits and hips too.:cool:

Not always.

There is more flexible armor these days.

Best is to start center mass and let recoil guide you up to a head shot.

They wear helmets, but face shields are not bullet proof..... and they're usually wearing some sort of breathing apparatus anyway....

If they're behind a shield, which is all but impossible to penetrate, then you have little window, as all that will be sticking out is a hand with a pistol, followed by a bunch of guys behind it.. at that point, a frag is your best option, but it's not like people have these just laying around..

I still think a better idea is to hook up a propane tank to jets around your doorway, and get a remote solenoid trigger... For less than 100$ you'll have a flamethrower surrounding your porch shooting out 1000 degree heat at anyone in the entryway.... with a push of a button....
 
Last edited:

sawah

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2011
Messages
436
Location
Virginia
I think the newsmedia is partially to blame for the stupid spin they put on stories.

If the BGs dress up as LEOs and home invade, they focus on the BGs, not the fact that they are able to do this by copying LEO tactics which should not be in place.

They certainly don't focus on calling for the citizens to be avenged or made whole at the expense of the 'system'.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Adjusting tin-foil hat....

They are facing multiple charges including impersonating an officer, burglary, kidnapping and robbery with a dangerous weapon.
ya ever wonder why cops place impersonating an officer before any of the violent felonies? Anyone?

Call the local TV station, heck, all the local news folks and ask them why the focus is not on the 'impersonating an officer' angle and what LE should tell homeowners on how to respond to this exact situation?

Mr. Police Chief, what do I do when a bunch of dudes bust down my door at 3 o'clock in the morning and start yelling police? Should I defend myself or let the 'police' come in a do what they will because it might be the real police....or, it might not be the real police. Mr. Police Chief, what would you do?....What's that Mr. Police Chief? I did not get your answer to the question, what would you do in that situation?
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Frankly, I think the next big gun rights push, instead of castle laws and constitutional carry, ought to be laws restricting the police from no-knock and short-knock dynamic raids.

As it stands, we have the right to own guns in the home, even as exercise of the right to meaningfully use those guns for defense within the home becomes as dangerous as the criminals themselves are.

I can't think of a single scenario which ever happens in real life which justifies the use of such tactics. However, I'm sure we could allow exceptions for imminent hostage executions or bomb detonations, for the fantasists who believe that police might ever be in a situation to stop such occurrences.

Incidentally, the use of such tactics is, at this point, defended solely in the name of officer safety. Nobody is willing any longer to argue that the risk of shooting an innocent grandmother is justified because someone might flush some weed down the toilet. It's just down to "officer safety" -- which is completely backwards. Ask Jarrod Shivers if kicking down doors made his job any safer. They do this stuff solely because some asshat neocon decided a "war on drugs" requires military tactics, and because suiting up in battle rattle and kicking in doors is, I quote, "better than sex".

It is my right, understood since at least the time of Blackstone, to treat as criminals intent on harming me and my family, any person who invades my home with force. This right is necessarily implied by the right of self-defense, as was easily understood centuries ago. What good are protections from civil suit if you're dead because your right to self-defense was incomplete in the first place?


I agree, we must push back the watering down of basic human rights this country was founded on. We have seen the watering down of these rights over state interests, Jefferson was absolutely right that in giving courts the last say would lead to this. Instead of checks and balances we have a parasitic political system that works symbiotically together against the very hosts they were meant to protect.

There is no scenario where I can envision a no knock raid, or even an announce and invade raid. Justice Sanders gave a brilliant dissent in our states decision to throw out our common law right to resist an unlawful arrest, talking about how we should have the right to defend ourselves against criminals even when they wear a state issued costume. And that doing so breaks our own state laws of having no duty to retreat when in a place lawful be.

I say that our rights exist regardless of how a court "rules" or what laws the "authorities" put in place.
 

gunns

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2011
Messages
270
Location
Minnesota
Man I hope this never happens to me. My wife would be a widow and there would be some dead cops in my house. My trusty little auto goes everywhere with me, even to bed. Well ok, not in my bed but I just have to extend my arm without any stretching and its right there.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Man I hope this never happens to me. My wife would be a widow and there would be some dead cops in my house. My trusty little auto goes everywhere with me, even to bed. Well ok, not in my bed but I just have to extend my arm without any stretching and its right there.

Using this post as an example, it might be noted than none of us want to shoot cops, or be shot in turn by them.

But, what other choice would we have were we to be subjected to a no-knock raid based on faulty information or a wrong address? I have no reason to assume the police will be kicking down my door, so if someone kicks down my door, what do I assume?

I don't care what charges against me might exist (not that there's any reason for any to exist), I'm not going to shoot my way out. The only way I'm going to shoot is if I think myself or my family is about to be murdered.

Kicking down doors is simply not worth the risk for any parties involved.
 
Last edited:

MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,239
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Sa...-on-using-force-against-police-wins-approval/

INDIANAPOLIS — The Indiana Senate has approved a bill laying out when residents might be legally justified in using force against police officers.

The Senate voted 38-12 Friday night in favor of the bill that is in response to a public uproar over a state Supreme Court ruling that residents couldn't resist officers even during an illegal entry. The House later approved the bill 67-26, sending it to the governor.

Supporters said the proposal strengthens the legal rights of people against government agents improperly entering their homes. But police groups have said they worry about the bill giving people justification for attacking officers.


Here you go folks. The people speak and the law makers acted.
 

PistolPackingMomma

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
1,884
Location
SC
http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Sa...-on-using-force-against-police-wins-approval/

INDIANAPOLIS — The Indiana Senate has approved a bill laying out when residents might be legally justified in using force against police officers.

The Senate voted 38-12 Friday night in favor of the bill that is in response to a public uproar over a state Supreme Court ruling that residents couldn't resist officers even during an illegal entry. The House later approved the bill 67-26, sending it to the governor.

Supporters said the proposal strengthens the legal rights of people against government agents improperly entering their homes. But police groups have said they worry about the bill giving people justification for attacking officers.


Here you go folks. The people speak and the law makers acted.

It's not an attack if the cops start the altercation. It's good, old fashioned self defense.
 
Top