• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Another Reason to Not Trust That Kick In Your Door

ManInBlack

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
1,551
Location
SW Idaho
http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Sa...-on-using-force-against-police-wins-approval/

INDIANAPOLIS — The Indiana Senate has approved a bill laying out when residents might be legally justified in using force against police officers.

The comments on that article are amazing. The cops are so scared for themselves, while completely ignoring the fact that in the vast majority of wrongful home invasions, it is the CITIZENS who are in mortal danger.

The sad fact of the matter is that most cops don't see the rest of us as human beings. We are subjects, to be intimidated or forced into compliance.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Sa...-on-using-force-against-police-wins-approval/

INDIANAPOLIS — The Indiana Senate has approved a bill laying out when residents might be legally justified in using force against police officers.

The Senate voted 38-12 Friday night in favor of the bill that is in response to a public uproar over a state Supreme Court ruling that residents couldn't resist officers even during an illegal entry. The House later approved the bill 67-26, sending it to the governor.

Supporters said the proposal strengthens the legal rights of people against government agents improperly entering their homes. But police groups have said they worry about the bill giving people justification for attacking officers.


Here you go folks. The people speak and the law makers acted.

This is a start, but it isn't good enough. I don't want to have to shoot a cop because he mistakenly invades my home, even if it is my right. If nothing else, I still have a good chance of getting killed, even though I may be vindicated regardless.

I want the police to stop invading homes. Laws need to be passed to prevent the police from behaving in this manner. It is intolerable in a free society. Period.

Edit: One of the comments to which I refer below illustrates my concern perfectly:

deputykeith on policeone.com said:
If the state government wants citizens to get their asses kicked, so be it...It's coming. The citizens resistance will only get them killed. Law makers should not be allowed to smoke crack while pulling suicide bills out their asses.

Like I said, this bill is not good enough. Not by a long shot. Not even within 10 miles of the finish line.

I don't want to have to prove to "deputykeith" which of us has the greater skills and arsenal, nor do I wish to be murdered by the rest of his like-minded colleagues once I do so.

Grayowl on policeone.com said:
This is a bad bill. When the police hit the wrong house, they don't normally know it. Residents using force to protect their home end up loosing. It is better to allow the police to gain control and then sort it out in a safe environment. Intruding officers need to be courteous and lose the errogant attitude. When a mistake has been made, appologize and buy them a new door. This law is going to get someone killed.

I don't want a new door. I want to not have my life endangered by shootouts for which you are solely responsible.

And it doesn't take a law to "embolden" me to act. I know your existence is defined by the law, but laws don't have that kind of effect on the rest of us. For most people most of the time, the law is purely a reactive force. Believe it or not, most people are good (or bad) because of their own motivations, in which the law is rarely a factor.

What causes the shootouts are your tactics, which leave a homeowner little choice unless he is somehow psychically able to know that the individuals kicking in his door are empowered to do so by the state.

You don't need to kick in my door, or invade my home. Ring the doorbell; I'll come to the door. Present your warrant; I won't resist.
 
Last edited:

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
The comments on that article are amazing. The cops are so scared for themselves, while completely ignoring the fact that in the vast majority of wrongful home invasions, it is the CITIZENS who are in mortal danger.

The sad fact of the matter is that most cops don't see the rest of us as human beings. We are subjects, to be intimidated or forced into compliance.

Wow. I almost didn't look, but then when I saw what site it was on, I decided to take a glance.

I have to say, I am stunned. Speechless. I don't even know how to respond to what I read there. Those cops could teach most Mad Mothers a thing or two about shrill, blood-in-the-streets predictions and emotional appeals to safety. Wow. Just wow.

"Us vs them", indeed.
 
Last edited:

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Hypothetical:

What happens to LE when they hit a house, wrongly and illegally, that has a highly trained combat veteran who does not think about his personal safety but gaining the tactical advantage with the use of superior tactics, equipment, skill and firepower? More of these heroes are coming home everyday.

What will be ironic is that the tragic loss of life experienced by the invading LEOs at the hands of a law abiding citizen, rightfully defending his home, will be found to have been justified, and the cops will be shown to have broken the law. It will be a lose-lose situation.

Originally Posted by Grayowl on policeone.com
This is a bad bill.
Only bad for LE given their anti-citizen and anti-liberty proclivities.

When the police hit the wrong house, they don't normally know it.
Don't normally know it???? Do you mean that cops sometimes knowingly hit the wrong house. Do you mean that the cops know they are going to hit the wrong house and then hit the house anyway?

This is all ya need to know folks.

IF, and after your statement, a BIG IF, the cops do not know 'it', then incompetence is no excuse. Due diligence Mr. Grayowl....due diligence. Most 1st graders know this concept, it is called homework. Taking a few extra minutes to ensure you got your work done correctly. Because, not checking your work results in undesirable consequences. Though, I have my doubts on whether or not cops are interested in any consequences considering cops can murder innocent citizens and not be subject to any meaningful consequences....Seattle PD comes to mind.

Some other cop tosses a no-knock warrant your way and you just saddle-up, hit the road and go full tactical. Because you KNOW that a mistake by a fellow cop is impossible. Because the clerk, who typed up the no-knock warrant would never make a mistake. Because every 'informant' is 100% reliable 100% of the time.

Residents using force to protect their home end up loosing. It is better to allow the police to gain control and then sort it out in a safe environment.
Safe for who? Certainly not the homeowner. Time and again you and your fellow thugs have been documented to not give a single seconds thought to the innocent residents whose homes you invade. As you so nonchalantly admit below, intruders you truly are.

Intruding officers need to be courteous and lose the arrogant attitude. When a mistake has been made, apologize and buy them a new door. This law is going to get someone killed.
New door? Really? That is all it takes, as far as you are concerned, to make things right for your illegal actions, a new door. No consideration of the physical and emotional trauma inflicted upon the residents for your illegal actions? No consideration for the life long emotional scars inflicted upon any children? No consideration for the new realization by the residents that cops can be more of a threat than the criminals? No consideration for the distrust of cops in that neighborhood?

No Mr. Grayowl, your concerns for this 'bad bill' is self serving, anti-citizen and anti-liberty. I see you for who and what you are. A thug cop.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
I just read about half of the posts over a http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Saf...wins-approval/

For some strange reason, 99.9% of the cops posting there seem to think that Indiana has laws that 'prevent' them from making a mistake.

rlcarroll on Tuesday, March 13, 2012 05:22 AM Pacific - There are already laws on the books that protect the citizens of Indiana from officers making unlawful entries and wrongful arrests.
No, there is nothing that prevent officers from doing anything illegal other than the officer's training and conscience. There are laws that may permit a wronged citizen to possibly, though highly unlikely, gain redress of wrongs committed by state sanctioned thugs.

This line of thought is rampant amongst LE. And, narry a thought given to the obvious alternative....just don't do no-knock raids.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
I particularly liked this viewpoint.

Posted by Smeared1 on Sunday, March 11, 2012 01:04 PM Pacific - Another note, make sure your right, and if a turd tries to use this, put him in the dirt!!!!! No better message then a funeral.
No complaints lodged against this viewpoint that I could find.
 

MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,239
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
OC for ME said Hypothetical:

What happens to LE when they hit a house, wrongly and illegally, that has a highly trained combat veteran who does not think about his personal safety but gaining the tactical advantage with the use of superior tactics, equipment, skill and firepower? More of these heroes are coming home everyday.

What will be ironic is that the tragic loss of life experienced by the invading LEOs at the hands of a law abiding citizen, rightfully defending his home, will be found to have been justified, and the cops will be shown to have broken the law. It will be a lose-lose situation.


Sorry, not hypothetical, it has already happened. Marine hears Dept of Education Swat team (yeah DOE looking for defaulted student loan) coming thru the yard middle of the night. He grabs an AR to defend his wife and kids. They burst in, LEO has an ND, everybody shoots the marine. "Sorry, wrong house, we were looking for your exwife."

Oh, and please sign up for PoliceOne. You will be shocked at the attitude of the people we hire as LEOs. This US against Them stuff is sickening. Educate yourself to this.
 
Last edited:

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Oh, and please sign up for PoliceOne. You will be shocked at the attitude of the people we hire as LEOs. This US against Them stuff is sickening. Educate yourself to this.

No, for real.

Next time someone says something about "cop bashing" or "anti-cop bias", I'm just going to start spamming the thread with comments from that article, until my point is made.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Oh, and please sign up for PoliceOne. You will be shocked at the attitude of the people we hire as LEOs. This US against Them stuff is sickening. Educate yourself to this.

No, for real.

Next time someone says something about "cop bashing" or "anti-cop bias", I'm just going to start spamming the thread with comments from that article, until my point is made.

Yea I had to stop going to those sites when the overwhelming majority of their opinions are they can Make RAS out of anything, and they rationalize why it's ok for them to break the law........makes me sick. One sight had a german motto translated to the effect of 'they don't have to like us just fear us.'
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Sorry, I found a 'narry a thought'....that poster was quickly and overwhelmingly shouted down as a turn-coat, a traitor to the brother/sisterhood. Likely not even a cop.
 

PALO

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
729
Location
Kent
OC for ME said Hypothetical:

What happens to LE when they hit a house, wrongly and illegally, that has a highly trained combat veteran who does not think about his personal safety but gaining the tactical advantage with the use of superior tactics, equipment, skill and firepower? More of these heroes are coming home everyday.

What will be ironic is that the tragic loss of life experienced by the invading LEOs at the hands of a law abiding citizen, rightfully defending his home, will be found to have been justified, and the cops will be shown to have broken the law. It will be a lose-lose situation.


Sorry, not hypothetical, it has already happened. Marine hears Dept of Education Swat team (yeah DOE looking for defaulted student loan) coming thru the yard middle of the night. He grabs an AR to defend his wife and kids. They burst in, LEO has an ND, everybody shoots the marine. "Sorry, wrong house, we were looking for your exwife."

Oh, and please sign up for PoliceOne. You will be shocked at the attitude of the people we hire as LEOs. This US against Them stuff is sickening. Educate yourself to this.

policeone comment posts are no more representative of cops than any # of other websites that attract silly trolls etc.

yes. they are presumably cops, but the idea that comments on a board are representative of a group in general is specious as anybody who has spent any time on intert00bs knows

i don't even bother with that site, and i don't know any cops who would post there.

it's a cesspool
 

PALO

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
729
Location
Kent
Yea I had to stop going to those sites when the overwhelming majority of their opinions are they can Make RAS out of anything, and they rationalize why it's ok for them to break the law........makes me sick. One sight had a german motto translated to the effect of 'they don't have to like us just fear us.'

and anybody who thinks policeone comments are at all representative of cops in general is deluded.

we've looked at them in roll calls before and laughed our butts off at them. and that's a group of 15 cops sitting around. they are ridiculous
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
and anybody who thinks policeone comments are at all representative of cops in general is deluded.

we've looked at them in roll calls before and laughed our butts off at them. and that's a group of 15 cops sitting around. they are ridiculous

Why the lack of.... wait for it.... self-policing?

This forum isn't a cesspool, although there are those who would make it such. We care what the perception of the outside world is.

Why is it different for cops?
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
policeone comment posts are no more representative of cops than any # of other websites that attract silly trolls etc.

yes. they are presumably cops, but the idea that comments on a board are representative of a group in general is specious as anybody who has spent any time on intert00bs knows

i don't even bother with that site, and i don't know any cops who would post there.

it's a cesspool

You have to prove you are an LEO to register to post on that cite if I am not mistaken.

Maybe your other cop buddies don't tell you they post there.

You are right it's a cesspool. But it is a cesspool of public servants, I find that most forums such as this one the trolls are the minority yet you are saying that the exact opposite happens on the cop sites?
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
and anybody who thinks policeone comments are at all representative of cops in general is deluded.

we've looked at them in roll calls before and laughed our butts off at them. and that's a group of 15 cops sitting around. they are ridiculous

Who said they are representative of cops in general. But the fact of the matter is it is representative of many cops. And I have personal experience that proves that. When I go to file a complaint and I am arrested and I see the department close rank to protect one of their own. Oh and yep they used much of the very same reasons you can read about on police forums.
Your love of your occupation might be deluding your own perception of what is representative of cops in general. Whether you like it or not, there is huge problems in "Law Enforcement".
The thing about the internet is you are not sitting in a group of 14 peers and have to put forth a veneer of feelings.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
I've come to the conclusion that PALO works in an ideal department, full of restraint and respect for the citizen, in some magical village where fairies presumably flit about.

I kind of feel like I should move there....

Back in the real world, my experiences with cops have been quite different. In the world I live in, the majority of cops I encounter (and see others encountering) behave and speak in a manner which places them much more in line with the denizens of policeone than with PALO's theoretical "norm" (for which I have rarely encountered a shred of empirical evidence).
 
Last edited:

1245A Defender

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2009
Messages
4,365
Location
north mason county, Washington, USA
Wowwie!!!

and anybody who thinks policeone comments are at all representative of cops in general is deluded.

If they are representitive of ANY cops at all proves that TOO many cops are POLICEONE cops!!!

we've looked at them in roll calls before and laughed our butts off at them. and that's a group of 15 cops sitting around. they are ridiculous

Do you think that cops are going to show the true colors during rollcall?

When YOU MINIMIZE the scope or perversion of bad COPS,
YOU show your own bias and acceptance of the THIN BLUE LINE!!!!
 
Top