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Thread: Required to show ID?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Required to show ID?

    Ok, so I understand that for most states, I'm not required to speak to LEO or show ID when asked if there is no RAS that I have done anything wrong. I also know, from my 10 years of having my NC CHP that if approached by an officer while carrying concealed, i have to give up that right and not only tell him I'm carrying, but I also have to produce ID and my CHP. Here's where I'm not 100% sure of the law, and hope someone on here can clarify for me. Since I don't legally have to produce an ID while open carrying, does this still apply if I'm open carrying while a CHP permit holder? I mean, if I have my CHP, but decide to open carry, am I still required to show my ID as I would if I was carrying concealed? Reason I ask is, my CHP expired last year while I was in Afghanistan, and as such, I am required to go through all steps to get it back. I just need to know what is required of me after I get it back. I never really OC'd in the past when I had my permit, but now that I'm without, I have started OC'ing rather routinely, most places I go. I'll plea the 5th about the rest of the time I'm out. Anyway, can anybody tell me if upon reestablishing my permit to carry concealed, I will be required to always produce ID when requested, even when OC'ing?

  2. #2
    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    Ok, so I understand that for most states, I'm not required to speak to LEO or show ID when asked if there is no RAS that I have done anything wrong. I also know, from my 10 years of having my NC CHP that if approached by an officer while carrying concealed, i have to give up that right and not only tell him I'm carrying, but I also have to produce ID and my CHP. Here's where I'm not 100% sure of the law, and hope someone on here can clarify for me. Since I don't legally have to produce an ID while open carrying, does this still apply if I'm open carrying while a CHP permit holder? I mean, if I have my CHP, but decide to open carry, am I still required to show my ID as I would if I was carrying concealed? Reason I ask is, my CHP expired last year while I was in Afghanistan, and as such, I am required to go through all steps to get it back. I just need to know what is required of me after I get it back. I never really OC'd in the past when I had my permit, but now that I'm without, I have started OC'ing rather routinely, most places I go. I'll plea the 5th about the rest of the time I'm out. Anyway, can anybody tell me if upon reestablishing my permit to carry concealed, I will be required to always produce ID when requested, even when OC'ing?
    Ok, you've confused a couple of things but they are easily misunderstood.

    First, you do not have to produce ID or your permit unless requested to do so by the LEO. You only have to notify them if you have a CHP and are carrying concealed when approached or addressed by them.

    Also, fyi if it's ever the case again: You can request an extension for your CHP if you are military and deployed. If your permit is going to expire while you are deployed, contact the sheriff's department in your county and they will grant an extension. You then have to renew it within a certain time after returning to NC.

    So no worries when carrying openly. The law only requires you to notify when carrying concealed. Even then, you do not have to produce the ID and permit until asked to do so.

    Hope this helps.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Thanks for the clarification. In regards to open carrying while being a CHP holder (but not concealed at that time) if the LEO comes up to question you for carrying and asks to see your ID, are you legally bound to give it to him, even if you're not carrying concealed? I'm guessing not, but just want to be clear. I enjoy open carrying, and have had no problems to date, but I still worry I'm going to end up in a location where I'm not allowed to carry, but don't realize it, and would rather avoid the resulting problems. I still find myself feeling a bit nervous when open carrying, thinking "this time" is going to be the time I get confronted by a vocal anti or an aggressive power hungry LEO not fully up on civil rights. While I admire the guy from Philly who was abused by the cops, for keeping his wits about him, I don't look forward to the thought of going through a similar case. I can only imagine how bad things would have turned out for him had he not had his voice recorder to prove his side of the story.

    Edit. Just re-read your last sentence, and it appears to be the answer I was looking for, and appears to confirm what I suspected.
    Last edited by Medic1210; 03-11-2012 at 01:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rotorhead View Post
    Ok, you've confused a couple of things but they are easily misunderstood.

    First, you do not have to produce ID or your permit unless requested to do so by the LEO. You only have to notify them if you have a CHP and are carrying concealed when approached or addressed by them.

    Also, fyi if it's ever the case again: You can request an extension for your CHP if you are military and deployed. If your permit is going to expire while you are deployed, contact the sheriff's department in your county and they will grant an extension. You then have to renew it within a certain time after returning to NC.

    So no worries when carrying openly. The law only requires you to notify when carrying concealed. Even then, you do not have to produce the ID and permit until asked to do so.

    Hope this helps.
    Cite(s), please.

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

  5. #5
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    Ok, so I understand that for most states, I'm not required to speak to LEO or show ID when asked if there is no RAS that I have done anything wrong.
    Reasonable Articulable Suspicion (and Probable Cause) are matters in the purview of the court and not the accused. The cop must defend his charge and recommendation to the state's attorney and the court and not to the defendant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    I also know, from my 10 years of having my NC CHP that if approached by an officer while carrying concealed, i have to give up that right and not only tell him I'm carrying, but I also have to produce ID and my CHP. Here's where I'm not 100% sure of the law, and hope someone on here can clarify for me. Since I don't legally have to produce an ID while open carrying, does this still apply if I'm open carrying while a CHP permit holder? I mean, if I have my CHP, but decide to open carry, am I still required to show my ID as I would if I was carrying concealed? Reason I ask is, my CHP expired last year while I was in Afghanistan, and as such, I am required to go through all steps to get it back. I just need to know what is required of me after I get it back. I never really OC'd in the past when I had my permit, but now that I'm without, I have started OC'ing rather routinely, most places I go. I'll plea the 5th about the rest of the time I'm out. Anyway, can anybody tell me if upon reestablishing my permit to carry concealed, I will be required to always produce ID when requested, even when OC'ing?

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran ComradeV's Avatar
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    Basically, if they are "requesting" to see your ID it means they want your consent, which is totally your prerogative if you want to give it.

    If they "demand" your ID you probably don't want to resist them, that won't end well. On the street, they usually win. The best place to fight the police is in the courts and the legislature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Cite(s), please.

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
    You can't cite what isn't there. Citing in this instance (14-415.11(a)) would be only for the requirement to inform and to produce the CHP and ID upon on request; there is no requirement in the law to do so when not CCing. The law says what is illegal or what you must do, not what you don't have to do.

    As for extensions, refer to 14-415.16A.
    Last edited by bc.cruiser; 03-11-2012 at 10:50 AM.

  8. #8
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Citizen may be looking for the devil that is in the details of the citation of statute law.

    Wisconsin has similar words, "... cation card to a law enforcement officer upon the request of the law enforcement officer while the law enforcement officer is acting in an official capacity and with lawful authority." Meanwhile the Fourth Amendment demands, in a word, PC/RAS for a non-consensual interrogation - a standard far beyond a request with lawful authority.

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    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Cite(s), please.

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
    The citation is NC Gen Stat 14-415.11
    § 14‑415.11. Permit to carry concealed handgun; scope of permit.

    (a) Any person who has a concealed handgun permit may carry a concealed handgun unless otherwise specifically prohibited by law. The person shall carry the permit together with valid identification whenever the person is carrying a concealed handgun, shall disclose to any law enforcement officer that the person holds a valid permit and is carrying a concealed handgun when approached or addressed by the officer, and shall display both the permit and the proper identification upon the request of a law enforcement officer. In addition to these requirements, a military permittee whose permit has expired during deployment may carry a concealed handgun during the 90 days following the end of deployment and before the permit is renewed provided the permittee also displays proof of deployment to any law enforcement officer.

    (b) The sheriff shall issue a permit to carry a concealed handgun to a person who qualifies for a permit under G.S. 14‑415.12. The permit shall be valid throughout the State for a period of five years from the date of issuance.

    (c) Except as provided in G.S. 14‑415.27, a permit does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun in any of the following:

    (1) Areas prohibited by G.S. 14‑269.2, 14‑269.3, and 14‑277.2.

    (2) Areas prohibited by G.S. 14‑269.4, except as allowed under G.S. 14‑269.4(6).

    (3) In an area prohibited by rule adopted under G.S. 120‑32.1.

    (4) In any area prohibited by 18 U.S.C. § 922 or any other federal law.

    (5) In a law enforcement or correctional facility.

    (6) In a building housing only State or federal offices.

    (7) In an office of the State or federal government that is not located in a building exclusively occupied by the State or federal government.

    (8) On any private premises where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by the posting of a conspicuous notice or statement by the person in legal possession or control of the premises.

    (c1) Any person who has a concealed handgun permit may carry a concealed handgun on the grounds or waters of a park within the State Parks System as defined in G.S. 113‑44.9.

    (c2) It shall be unlawful for a person, with or without a permit, to carry a concealed handgun while consuming alcohol or at any time while the person has remaining in the person's body any alcohol or in the person's blood a controlled substance previously consumed, but a person does not violate this condition if a controlled substance in the person's blood was lawfully obtained and taken in therapeutically appropriate amounts or if the person is on the person's own property.

    (c3) As provided in G.S. 14‑269.4(5), it shall be lawful for a person to carry any firearm openly, or to carry a concealed handgun with a concealed carry permit, at any State‑owned rest area, at any State‑owned rest stop along the highways, and at any State‑owned hunting and fishing reservation.

    (d) A person who is issued a permit shall notify the sheriff who issued the permit of any change in the person's permanent address within 30 days after the change of address. If a permit is lost or destroyed, the person to whom the permit was issued shall notify the sheriff who issued the permit of the loss or destruction of the permit. A person may obtain a duplicate permit by submitting to the sheriff a notarized statement that the permit was lost or destroyed and paying the required duplicate permit fee. (1995, c. 398, s. 1; c. 507, s. 22.1(c); c. 509, s. 135.3(e); 1997, c. 238, s. 6; 2000‑140, s. 103; 2000‑191, s. 5; 2005‑232, s. 3; 2011‑268, s. 14.)
    The part in bold should be all the citation you need to cover what I posted. Let me know if it's not enough and I'll dig a little deeper.

    But, I'm glad you asked for the cite, though. It made me realize that I was slightly off on the extension thing. It appears that a deployed military member need only to carry around their deployment orders for the 90 days after returning to cover themselves until such time as they can renew their permit. I was thinking that they had to request an extension.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by rotorhead; 03-11-2012 at 11:56 AM.

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    First, you need to ask whether there is an existing NC statute requiring anyone to even identify themselves to LE; whether consensual or non-consensual stop. If you are performing a licensed activity such as driving or CC, then those statutes define if/when you need to identify yourself, display license/id, or hand it to the le. I would place a clear distinction between those three specifics.

    Second, you need to ask under what specific set of circumstances can LE compel you to actually identify yourself under what statute.

    Third, you must ask yourself what actions you are willing to take under those circumstances.


    As to "first," it does not appear that NC is a "Stop & ID" state; thus, there may not be statute that compels a subject to identify themselves even under PC/RAS as defined by Terry v Ohio, Hiibel v NV, and Kolendor v Lawson, along with several other relevant cases. For a basis, I urge you to read each of those first, if you have not done so already.
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    You have no general duty to have or carry ID at all in the USA. Kolender v. Lawsen.

    There are some states or localities which require you to state your name or address pursuant to a seizure based upon reasonable suspicion. See Terry v. Ohio; Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial Circuit.

    But the Virginia AG has opined that refusal to state your name is not unlawful or grounds for arrest even if initially seized pursuant to reasonable suspison. See Virginia Attorney General 2002 Opinion 02-082 (holding that citizens may not be detained or arrested for refusing to provide identification credentials/information to police) at http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions/2002opns/02-082.pdf.

    If you are seized, in my opinion, it makes sense to state your name for two reasons. First, it may help create a trail to police records you can obtain later to use for various purposes including FOIA requests, lawsuits, etc. Second, it makes you look reasonable to the general public and press, thus helping our cause which in the end, is a publicity campaign for the Second Amendment - we are both the good guys and the nice guys

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    Just remember "lawful authority" is what is written in the law, not what walks on 2 legs.

    I am of the opinion you should never be confrontational, but that does not mean you should just roll over and submit to any "order" either.

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    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    As to "first," it does not appear that NC is a "Stop & ID" state; thus, there may not be statute that compels a subject to identify themselves even under PC/RAS as defined by Terry v Ohio, Hiibel v NV, and Kolendor v Lawson, along with several other relevant cases. For a basis, I urge you to read each of those first, if you have not done so already.
    That's just the thing. NC isn't a stop and identify state, unless you are a CHP holder and carrying concealed. At that point, you are required to identify yourself if asked by a LEO. My concern/question was what I would be required to give the officer if I was open carrying and still had a CHP permit. The only reasoning ask is because the only time I'm likely to get stopped and questioned is when I'm open carrying, since when I'm concealed, they won't know, and will haveno reason to stop and talk to me in the first place. And yes, I know that me carrying openly isn't a reason to stop and talk to me, but I know many of them don't see it the same. Just needed to know what I needed to do. I think the best course of action if approached while OC'ing will be to politely refuse to show ID pursuant to my 4th Ammendment right, but also make it clear that if the officer is demanding to see it, that I will not resist his physically taking it off my person against my will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    That's just the thing. NC isn't a stop and identify state, unless you are a CHP holder and carrying concealed. At that point, you are required to identify yourself if asked by a LEO. My concern/question was what I would be required to give the officer if I was open carrying and still had a CHP permit. The only reasoning ask is because the only time I'm likely to get stopped and questioned is when I'm open carrying, since when I'm concealed, they won't know, and will haveno reason to stop and talk to me in the first place. And yes, I know that me carrying openly isn't a reason to stop and talk to me, but I know many of them don't see it the same. Just needed to know what I needed to do. I think the best course of action if approached while OC'ing will be to politely refuse to show ID pursuant to my 4th Ammendment right, but also make it clear that if the officer is demanding to see it, that I will not resist his physically taking it off my person against my will.
    That sounds accurate.


    Then, why ask the question?
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    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    That sounds accurate.


    Then, why ask the question?
    Because I didn't know if my right to refuse ID ends after I get my CHP back. I'd hate to have my CHP, and get stopped for OC, and find myself in legal trouble for refusing to give my ID. I tell ya, I enjoy OC, but really don't like getting hassled, so I don't know how often I'll be doing it after reacquiring my CHP. I'd much rather blend in and fly under the radar most of the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    Because I didn't know if my right to refuse ID ends after I get my CHP back. I'd hate to have my CHP, and get stopped for OC, and find myself in legal trouble for refusing to give my ID. I tell ya, I enjoy OC, but really don't like getting hassled, so I don't know how often I'll be doing it after reacquiring my CHP. I'd much rather blend in and fly under the radar most of the time.
    Why would your Right change based upon that?

    Unless you are conducting a licensed activity such as CC, it doesn't change.
    Last edited by wrightme; 03-11-2012 at 06:48 PM.
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    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    Why would your Right change based upon that?

    Unless you are conducting a licensed activity such as CC, it doesn't change.
    Again, that's just what I wanted to verify. Also, not sure how much difference it makes, but in NC, CC isn't licensed, it's permitted. NC doesn't issue a CH License, it issues a CH Permit. Again, not sure what difference it makes in regards to the legal system, but I thought it was worth mentioning the difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    Again, that's just what I wanted to verify. Also, not sure how much difference it makes, but in NC, CC isn't licensed, it's permitted. NC doesn't issue a CH License, it issues a CH Permit. Again, not sure what difference it makes in regards to the legal system, but I thought it was worth mentioning the difference.
    The permit IS a license. You are required to present it if found conducting the licensed (permitted) activity, right?

    When not conducting that activity, it is irrelevant to OC.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medic1210 View Post
    ...my CHP expired last year while I was in Afghanistan...
    I can't help you with your inquiry, but did want to jump in and thank you for your military service to our nation.
    Proud Veteran ~ U.S. Army / Army Reserve

    Mississippi State Guard ~ Honorably Retired


  20. #20
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    medic:

    The only time you are REQUIRED to show ID & CHP is when requested by LEO while you are actually CCing. If you are CCing you MUST tell the LEO you are. if you have a CHP but are not carrying a weapon or are OCing you have no legal requirement to tell a LEO.

    Now the crappy part is most LEOs think that if you have a CHP you must tell them whether you are carrying or not. I've had several pitch a friggin fit on my roommate because of this. When they run your DL it will say that you have a CHP. Even though he has his CHP he generally OC's, especially when out with me. He keeps a copy of the law that has already been cited explaining the only time he has to tell a LEO he has a CHP is when actually carrying concealed. They stomp their feet and pout but thats about it.

    ^^ This usually happen during traffic stops or road block encounters when showing a DL is required
    Last edited by aosailor; 03-12-2012 at 09:06 AM.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the replies guys. I thought that was how it was, but just wanted to make sure.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran ComradeV's Avatar
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    Does anyone know the GS that they use as their authority to conduct roadblocks/checkpoints?

  23. #23
    Regular Member WTFOVER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComradeV View Post
    Does anyone know the GS that they use as their authority to conduct roadblocks/checkpoints?
    http://www.ncleg.net/enactedlegislat..._20-16.3a.html

    NCGS 20-16.3a

  24. #24
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    The requirement to produce ID and CHP on demand in NC is NOT dependent on whether or not you have a CHP. The ID/CHP requirement is ENTIRELY predicated on carrying concealed under § 14‑415.11.(a). If you are CCing, and are asked for ID and CHP, you have to produce it.

    OC is not mentioned, and therefore it is NOT regulated under this statute, and the requirement to inform and produce ID upon request is NOT APPLICABLE.

    Any activity which is not prohibited is legal and lawful.

    An LEO demanding to see your CHP when you are OCing is NOT a "lawful order" because no permit is required to OC under NC law, and NC is NOT a "stop and identify" state. Unless you are operating a motor vehicle, there is NO requirement that you produce (or even possess) a DL or other photo ID in NC...

    So, basically, if an LEO sees you OCing and asks to see your ID and CHP, you are not required to say anything to him other than to indicate that if you are being detained, you wish the presence of your attorney before you can answer any questions (if you want to play hardball).

    If you want to play nice, you could give your name and address verbally.

    But there is NO requirement whatsoever to produce ANY sort of paperwork if you are OCing and not operating a motor vehicle in NC. Any LEO who would arrest you for failing to produce a DL or CHP for OCing is a Federal Civil Rights lawsuit waiting to happen, IMO, and I will GLADLY facilitate their entry into the Federal Courts if they insist on behaving in such an unlawful manner...

    But then again, IANAL, and my opinion is worth exactly as much as you paid for it...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 04-03-2012 at 10:48 PM.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member Medic1210's Avatar
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    Good deal. Thanks!

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