No guns allowed lapeer sheriff dept

looks like your good to OC in the public areas to me
huh strange that it just says "concealed weapons are not allowed in this building"

ETA and CC per state law

xd shooter said:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(zz...px?page=GetMCLDocument&objectname=mcl-791-215



Well...That didn't help!!

umm...http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/publications/firearms.pdf

Scroll down to section 800.283 Weapons; prohibitions.

Here, this better defines it...http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(zz...eg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-800-283

Just as a question here, does anyone really think that carrying a weapon into a jail is a good idea?

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No one is asking to carry in a jail. The places here are public lobbies used to conduct public business: drop off forms (which OP was doing) get photo's taken for CPL's, pick-up public records etc..

None of the described above is anything a "JAIL" does to the best of my knowledge, that is where many are getting confused. Yes the jail area should be a restricted area, however the public business areas cannot be, as their function is to serve the law-abiding public, not just the members of the public that the Sheriff feels comfortable with. Maybe in addition to legally armed citizens the sheriff is uncomfortable with: blind people, short people, fat people, skinny people, people in wheel chairs, etc... should he be allowed to bar them from conducting business in a area their tax dollars paid for? After all - a seeing eye dog could attack him, a fat person could fall on him, the wheelchair person could run over his toes, the skinny person could use their boney elbows as weapons right, the short person could head-butt him in the groin ?

As with Wayne Co. I see this sign being changed in the end. The picture here is of the Red original ones WaCo Sheriffs posts had up. It said - All Firearms are prohibited beyond this point [the lobby door]. They are now yellow and say - No firearms allowed in the restricted areas of this building. It is correct to the letter of the law because, the public is not allowed in secure areas of these buildings. On a side note: not too long after the sign changed, the County clerks window was moved from the lobby in question to a different spot in this building, with a different set of doors and with a full wall divider. I guess this was an attempt to limit the sheriffs exposure to the public? Thanks to MOC for getting the Wayne Co. Sheriff's to change their signs.

wow, really great job. i'm sure that officer would have suddenly drawn a blank if he had arrested you. he would have had a hard time coming up with a law you had broken.

I find it funny they consider themselves a business like they're a private business. I mean if you don't like the way they run things you can always call over to the next county to have them take care of...oh wait you can't.

xd shooter said:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(zz...px?page=GetMCLDocument&objectname=mcl-791-215

Well...That didn't help!!

umm...http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/publications/firearms.pdf

Scroll down to section 800.283 Weapons; prohibitions.

Here, this better defines it...http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(zz...eg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-800-283

Just as a question here, does anyone really think that carrying a weapon into a jail is a good idea?

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Is this what passes for Legal Cites in your mind? Man, I think you need to understand what a Legal Cite is. Neither of these even apply and only show what your real feelings ARE ("does anyone really think that carrying a weapon into a jail is a good idea?"). I believe that you neither understand the OP nor anyone else here in this thread. No Post in this thread has anyone other than yourself believed that someone was trying to CARRY INTO A JAIL, rather the OP was in the Public Accessible Areas of the Lapeer County Sheriff's Office and not the Secured Areas of a Jail.

The Lapeer County Jail is operated by the County of Lapeer. Context is KEY here.

http://www.county.lapeer.org/Sheriff/jail.html

First of all, let's take a look at your first legal cite:

MCL 791.215, as part of the CORRECTIONS CODE OF 1953 (EXCERPT) Act 232 of 1953, must be taken into CONTEXT. The following is the FIRST MCL in this Act:

MCL 791.201 said:

State department of corrections; creation; powers and duties; administration; Michigan corrections commission; appointment, qualifications, and terms of members; officers and assistants; director as executive head; vacancy; compensation and expenses; executive office; office accommodations; meetings.

Sec. 1.

There is hereby created a state department of corrections, hereinafter called the department, which shall possess the powers and perform the duties granted and conferred. The department shall consist of and be administered by a commission of 6 members appointed by the governor, by and with the advice and consent of the senate, to be known as the Michigan corrections commission, hereinafter called the commission, not more than 3 of whom shall be members of the same political party, each of whom shall qualify by taking the constitutional oath of office, and filing the same in the office of the secretary of state, and of such other officers and assistants as may be appointed or employed in the department, including a director as its executive head. A person holding a position either state or federal, or a person drawing a salary from a municipal unit of the state, shall not be eligible for appointment to the commission, without having first resigned from that position. The term of office of each member of the commission shall be 6 years. The governor shall fill a vacancy occurring in the membership of the commission for the unexpired term only, and for cause established on hearing may remove a member. Each member of the commission shall hold office until his successor shall be appointed and shall qualify. The per diem compensation of the commission and the schedule for reimbursement of expenses shall be established annually by the legislature. The department and commission shall have its executive office at Lansing. The department of management and budget shall provide suitable office accommodations. Meetings of the commission may be held at other suitable places as the commission may designate.

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This Act created a STATE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS, not the Lapeer County Jail, so MCL 791.215 does not apply let alone does not speak to Firearms in Public Accessible Areas of the Lapeer County Sheriff's Department. Your Legal Cite follows:

MCL 791.215 said:

“Correctional facility” defined.

Sec. 15.

As used in this act, “correctional facility” means a facility or institution which is maintained and operated by the department.

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Next, lets look at your second legal cite:

MCL 800.283, as part of the LIQUOR, NARCOTICS, AND WEAPONS PROHIBITED IN PRISONS (EXCERPT) Act 17 of 1909, must be taken into CONTEXT. The following are the DEFINITIONS in this Act:

MCL 800.281a said:

Definitions.

Sec. 1a.

As used in this act:

(a) “Alcoholic liquor” means any spirituous, vinous, malt, or fermented liquor, liquid, or compound whether or not medicated, containing 1/2 of 1% or more of alcohol by volume and which is or readily can be made suitable for beverage purposes.

(b) “Chief administrator” means the warden, superintendent, or other employee approved or designated by the department of corrections as the chief administrative officer of a correctional facility.

(c) “Controlled substance” means a drug, substance, or immediate precursor in schedules 1 to 5 of part 72 of 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.7201 to 333.7231.

(d) “Department” means the department of corrections.

(e) “Correctional facility” means any of the following:

(i) A state prison, reformatory, work camp, or community corrections center.

(ii) A youth correctional facility operated by the department or a private vendor under section 20g of 1953 PA 232, MCL 791.232.

(iii) A privately operated community corrections center or resident home which houses prisoners committed to the jurisdiction of the department.

(iv) The land on which a facility described in subparagraph (i), (ii), or (iii) is located.

(f) “Prescription drug” means prescription drug as defined in section 17708 of 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.17708.

(g) “Prisoner” means a person committed to the jurisdiction of the department who has not been released on parole or discharged.

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This Act describes PROHIBITED ACTS IN FACILITIES UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE STATE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS, not the Lapeer County Jail, so MCL 800.281a does not apply to the Public Accessible Areas of the Lapeer County Sheriff's Department. Your Legal Cite follows:

800.283 said:

Weapons; prohibitions.

Sec. 3.

(1) Unless authorized by the chief administrator of the correctional facility, a weapon or other implement which may be used to injure a prisoner or other person, or in assisting a prisoner to escape from imprisonment, shall not be sold, given, or furnished, either directly or indirectly, to a prisoner who is in or on the correctional facility, or be disposed of in a manner or in a place that it may be secured by a prisoner who is in or on the correctional facility.

(2) Unless authorized by the chief administrator of the correctional facility, a person, who knows or has reason to know that another person is a prisoner, shall not sell, give, or furnish, either directly or indirectly, to that prisoner anywhere outside of a correctional facility a weapon or other implement which may be used to injure a prisoner or other person or in assisting a prisoner to escape from imprisonment.

(3) Unless authorized by the chief administrator of the correctional facility, a weapon or other implement which may be used to injure a prisoner or other person, or in assisting a prisoner to escape from imprisonment, shall not be brought into or onto any correctional facility.

(4) Unless authorized by the chief administrator of the correctional facility, a prisoner shall not have in his or her possession or under his or her control a weapon or other implement which may be used to injure a prisoner or other person, or to assist a prisoner to escape from imprisonment.

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If the Lapeer County Jail was actually run by the STATE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS, then MCL 800.283(3) would apply but it most certainly does not apply.

Please do try to provide BETTER LEGAL CITES next time, especially ones that ACTUALLY APPLY TO THE CONTEXT BEING DISCUSSED.

What, is this a habit?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UqcY8lGUUE&feature=g-vrec&context=G2308793RVAAAAAAAAAA

stainless1911 said:

how then, is a correctional facility defined?

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IANAL, but it appears that this refers to those facilities run by the state, not by the county. Therefore, this prohibition would fall under preemption unless it can be shown that this is actually operated by the Department Of Corrections.


LIQUOR, NARCOTICS, AND WEAPONS PROHIBITED IN PRISONS (EXCERPT)
Act 17 of 1909

800.281a Definitions.
Sec. 1a.

As used in this act:

(a) “Alcoholic liquor” means any spirituous, vinous, malt, or fermented liquor, liquid, or compound whether or not medicated, containing 1/2 of 1% or more of alcohol by volume and which is or readily can be made suitable for beverage purposes.

(b) “Chief administrator” means the warden, superintendent, or other employee approved or designated by the department of corrections as the chief administrative officer of a correctional facility.

(c) “Controlled substance” means a drug, substance, or immediate precursor in schedules 1 to 5 of part 72 of 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.7201 to 333.7231.

(d) “Department” means the department of corrections.

(e) “Correctional facility” means any of the following:

(i) A state prison, reformatory, work camp, or community corrections center.

(ii) A youth correctional facility operated by the department or a private vendor under section 20g of 1953 PA 232, MCL 791.232.

(iii) A privately operated community corrections center or resident home which houses prisoners committed to the jurisdiction of the department.

(iv) The land on which a facility described in subparagraph (i), (ii), or (iii) is located.

(f) “Prescription drug” means prescription drug as defined in section 17708 of 1978 PA 368, MCL 333.17708.

(g) “Prisoner” means a person committed to the jurisdiction of the department who has not been released on parole or discharged.


History: Add. 1982, Act 343, Imd. Eff. Dec. 21, 1982 ;-- Am. 1998, Act 514, Imd. Eff. Jan. 8, 1999




And this:

Corrections Center - A community facility operated by the Department of Corrections in which prisoners are supervised prior to release on parole. Prisoners are carefully screened for this "community status," are required to work or be in school while living in these facilities and pay a per diem to partially offset room and board expenses. A Corrections Center is supervised by employees of the Department of Corrections but not necessarily owned by the department. Some of these facilities are leased by the department. The department began closing some centers in anticipation of a declining center population caused by Truth in Sentencing legislation that went into affect in 1998. By the end of 2001, the center population stood at 455. Many of the offenders formerly in centers were supervised on electronic monitoring devices.

--http://www.michigan.gov/corrections/0,4551,7-119--17490--,00.html

Thats what I wanted, thanks DrTodd. Unless they fall under (iv) they cant get away with this.

stainless1911 said:

Thats what I wanted, thanks DrTodd. Unless they fall under (iv) they cant get away with this.

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Nowhere in the audio recording did the Under-Sheriff state that Weapons were not allowed due to it being a jail, the language used was for "officer safety" as being the justification.

It is my sincere hope that this can be worked out with the Sheriff as "working together" is our goal if possible.

True, just chipping away at excuses that they are very likely to bring up.

lol @ lobby being a correctional facility.

More "proof" that firearms are not prohibited by law is the fact that until recently, citizens were required to bring their pistols to this exact part of the building for the required "safety inspection"

I don't have a cite for the old safety inspection law handy as I am using my phone.

lapeer20m said:

More "proof" that firearms are not prohibited by law is the fact that until recently, citizens were required to bring their pistols to this exact part of the building for the required "safety inspection"

I don't have a cite for the old safety inspection law handy as I am using my phone.

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I would stay away from that argument (believe it was in MCL 28.422). Safety Inspection gone and hopefully forgotten...

I understand that the law no longer requires a "safety inspection" but the point remains that firearms are Not prohibited by statute because until recently citizens were required to bring firearms to the sheriff's department.

I am in no way advocating for pistol registration, just making the point that firearms cant be prohibited in a place where they were recently required without the legislature creating a statute that covers the prohibition.

+1

I knew what you were doing.

Anyone brave enough to click the "Report A Crime" button on the sheriffs page? LOL

Tucker6900 said:

Anyone brave enough to click the "Report A Crime" button on the sheriffs page? LOL

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For those of you feeling froggy, I took the liberty of aquiring the Sheriffs Email address:

rkalanquin@lapeercounty.org

Tucker6900 said:

Anyone brave enough to click the "Report A Crime" button on the sheriffs page? LOL

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I did , it don't work

So despite all the arguing, what is being done about to resolve the illegal sign? Is a letter writing campaign in order? I recommend calling and talking to the county attorney. He may be inclined to assist.