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Thread: Madison banned sale of guns

  1. #1
    Regular Member Sorcice's Avatar
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    Madison banned sale of guns

    I went to mc sports in Madison to look for a shoulder holster and saw the attached image on the door. Apparently grandpas gun shop is the only store in Madison that has been grandfathered in(insert irony here) since gander Mtn is outside city limits. And they are cut off after a quota is met each year.

    Clarification: hand guns are banned. Long guns are still widely available.
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    Last edited by Sorcice; 03-13-2012 at 04:50 PM.

  2. #2
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    Wow. That's bs


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  3. #3
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    ZONING CODE Sec. 28.09
    28 - 91 Rev. 12/15/00
    28.09 COMMERCIAL DISTRICTS.
    (1) General Requirements.
    (a) Permitted Uses. Permitted uses of land or buildings, as herein listed, shall be restricted to the districts indicated and under the conditions specified. No building or tract of land shall be devoted to any use other than a use permitted herein in the zoning district in which such building or tract of land shall be located, with the following exceptions:
    1. Uses lawfully established on the effective date of this ordinance; and
    2. Conditional uses allowed in accordance with the provisions of 28.09(1)(b) hereunder.
    Uses lawfully established on the effective date of this ordinance and rendered nonconforming by the provisions thereof, shall be subject to those regulations of Section 28.05 governing nonconforming uses.

    ZONING CODE 28.12 ADMINISTRATION AND ENFORCEMENT. [ ... ]
    (6) Occupancy Certificates. No building or addition thereto constructed after the effective date of this ordinance shall be used for any purpose, and no addition to a previously existing building shall be occupied, and no land (except land used for garden or public recreation purposes and land without buildings or structures that is not in the Wetland District) that is vacant on the effective date of this ordinance shall be used for any purpose, until a certificate of occupancy has been issued by the office of the Zoning Administrator. No change in a use shall be made until a certificate of occupancy has been issued by the Zoning Administrator. Every certificate of occupancy shall state that the use of occupancy complies with all of the provisions of this ordinance. When applicable in flood plain areas, the Zoning Administrator shall require a certification by a registered professional engineer or architect that the finished fill, lowest floor, and flood elevations and other flood plain regulatory factors were accomplished in compliance with the provisions of this ordinance prior to issuance of a certificate of occupancy. In flood plain areas, it shall be the responsibility of the applicant to secure all other necessary permits from all appropriate Federal and Wisconsin State agencies, including those required under Sec. 404 of the Federal Water Pollution Control Act amendments of 1972, 33 United States Code 1334. (Am. by Ord. 8627, 7-2-85)
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 03-13-2012 at 05:07 PM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    What ever happened to preemption?
    66.0409 (2)
    Except as provided in subs. (3) and (4), no political subdivision may enact an ordinance or adopt a resolution that regulates the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permitting, registration or taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components, unless the ordinance or resolution is the same as or similar to, and no more stringent than, a state statute.
    3 talks about taxing & regulating discharge.
    The only part of 4 that even remotely applies talks about construction or expansion of a range.

    That being one of the few state statutes that mentions or affects firearm sales (other than the receipt delay & things like "must follow federal law"), I don't see where Madistan (or Killwaukee for that matter) has any say in what lawful, legal goods are sold within their boundries.

    Since they're using zoning regulations as a back-door control over sales, obviously it's illegal.
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  5. #5
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Once again, 66.0409 is toothless and only a distraction. No one has cited, that I recall, ever, an action under Wisconsin state firearms preemption.

  6. #6
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Once again, 66.0409 is toothless and only a distraction. No one has cited, that I recall, ever, an action under Wisconsin state firearms preemption.
    I wouldn't say that it's entirely toothless. There have been a number of municipalities that have backed down in the face of 66.0409 without taking them to court.

    re: Madison, here is the zoning ordinance, complete with typical Madison paranoia. Not surprisingly enacted just after the state preemption statute took effect. (What is now 66.0409 was enacted in November 1995, Madison's zoning ordinance January 1996.)

    Handgun shop, subject to the following conditions:
    Sec. 28.10(4)(c)59.a. ZONING CODE
    Rev. 6/15/11 28 - 118h
    a. Such shop shall be located in a building of Type 5 construction as
    defined in Wis. Admin. Code ILHR 51.03(5).
    b. No handgun shop shall be located within 1000 feet of any church,
    synagogue, temple, mosque or any other place of worship, any lot in a
    residence district, either in the City of Madison or in a municipality
    adjacent to the City of Madison, any of the following planned
    developments which allow residential dwelling units: planned
    community development, planned unit development, and planned
    community mobile home parks; any public park, any private or public
    elementary, secondary or vocational school, any public or private
    playground, any day care center, any public library, any youth recreation
    area including little league baseball fields, soccer fields, or
    YMCA/YWCA.
    c. No handgun shop shall be located in the same detached building where
    alcohol beverages are sold.
    d. No handgun shop shall be located in the same detached building where
    any patron thereof under the age of 18 years may enter, unless
    accompanied by a parent, guardian or adult spouse 18 years of age or
    over.
    (Cr. by Ord. 11,506, 1-26-96)
    Last edited by Shotgun; 03-13-2012 at 06:30 PM.
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  7. #7
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    No handgun shop shall be located within 1000 feet of...
    Because of course that will
    a) stop criminals from taking a gun to any of those places
    b) stop criminals from unlawfully using a gun in any of those places
    If a criminal can get to a shop that's 3 blocks from anywhere, they can get back to wherever they came from once they have the pistol in their slimy little hands (or underwear).

    I'd say that zoning ordinance should be challenged using the same rationale as the "GF"SZ challenge:
    it is so broad in its effect that it forcloses any meaningful exercise of lawful commerce in firearms.

    Has anyone ever made a city map marking off all those "gun shop free zones", to show where, if anywhere, one would still be allowed? Maybe that should be the object of a FOIA request for the zoning department...

    Also, how can they claim the right to regulate how many items a store sells in a given time period? What are the limits on tires, cars, baseball bats, or bottles of alcohol, all of which harm people in various ways?
    Last edited by MKEgal; 03-13-2012 at 07:06 PM.

  8. #8
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Because of course that will
    a) stop criminals from taking a gun to any of those places
    b) stop criminals from unlawfully using a gun in any of those places
    If a criminal can get to a shop that's 3 blocks from anywhere, they can get back to wherever they came from once they have the pistol in their slimy little hands (or underwear).

    I'd say that zoning ordinance should be challenged using the same rationale as the "GF"SZ challenge:
    it is so broad in its effect that it forcloses any meaningful exercise of lawful commerce in firearms.

    Has anyone ever made a city map marking off all those "gun shop free zones", to show where, if anywhere, one would still be allowed? Maybe that should be the object of a FOIA request for the zoning department...

    Also, how can they claim the right to regulate how many items a store sells in a given time period? What are the limits on tires, cars, baseball bats, or bottles of alcohol, all of which harm people in various ways?
    No no no, they're not concerned with what criminals could do. They're concerned with what law-abiding people can do. And they're concerned about those guns that magically load and shoot themselves around daycare centers, churches and parks. (it's "for the children.")

    They do regulate "adult book stores" too, I guess. But the only one in the city is mostly surrounded by a residential neighborhood, has an elementary school 500 feet away and a church almost next door.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

  9. #9
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    This is an interesting excert on how the Madison police department viewed 66.0409 in Spring of 2011. It came from the Madison police department web site titled Legal Update. It apparently is done under authority of Captain Victor Whal.

    Firearms Ordinances
    Over the years, the City has enacted a number of firearms
    related ordinances, most located in chapter 25 of the
    Madison General Ordinances.
    In 1995, the State Legislature enacted 66.0409 (Local
    regulation of firearms). This statute prohibits local bodies of
    government (cities, towns, villages, counties) from enacting
    most ordinances related to firearms if the ordinance is more
    restrictive than state law. The relevant portion states:
    …no political subdivision may enact an ordinance or adopt
    a resolution that regulates the sale, purchase, purchase
    delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession,
    bearing, transportation, licensing, permitting, registration or
    taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm, including
    ammunition and reloader components, unless the ordinance
    or resolution is the same as or similar to, and no more
    stringent than, a state statute.
    So, while these ordinances remain on the books, most of
    them (prohibiting the sale of firearms, prohibiting the
    possession of short-barreled handguns, prohibiting the
    possession of assault weapons, etc) are unenforceable.
    Officers should not take enforcement action for these
    ordinances.


    The emphasis is mine.

    http://www.cityofmadison.com/police/LegalUpdates.cfm
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 03-13-2012 at 09:41 PM.

  10. #10
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    This is an interesting excert on how the Madison police department viewed 66.0409 in Spring of 2011. It came from the Madison police department web site titled Legal Update. It apparently is done under authority of Captain Victor Whal. [ ... ] So, while these ordinances remain on the books, most of them (prohibiting the sale of firearms, prohibiting the possession of short-barreled handguns, prohibiting the possession of assault weapons, etc) are unenforceable.
    Officers should not take enforcement action for these ordinances. The emphasis is mine.

    http://www.cityofmadison.com/police/LegalUpdates.cfm
    Now, what recourse has a law abiding citizen that may be the victim of an officer's capricious enforcement actions? What is his recourse before and after the ride and the rap.

    Is that attitude common across the state, that officers pick and choose which ordinances are enforced?

  11. #11
    Regular Member TyGuy's Avatar
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    Didn't we just fight this in Chicago?

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    Damn, I thought we had some screwed up laws in MO but I do believe WI and more so the city of Madison takes the cake.

  13. #13
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    The zoning ordinance is there simply because nobody has legally challenged it. Years ago, I even asked gander mtn. about it (before they moved), and even they didn't want to do the legal fight.

    MC sports probably could be grandfathered in, but then I'm guessing their lawyers think they won't be since they opened that store after the the 1996 zoning ordinance, or they just didn't want to spend the money to fight it for a niche market.

    This ordinance needs someone with standing (a store owner that could sell handguns) and money to fight it.

  14. #14
    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9026543 View Post
    Damn, I thought we had some screwed up laws in MO but I do believe WI and more so the city of Madison takes the cake.
    Madison is one of the most liberal run states in Wisconsin, Californians look toward Madison for some of their stupid ideas.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

  15. #15
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    Reading between the lines and behind the scenes, I see the zoning ordinance as some gee-aren't-I-clever lawyer arguing that, no, Madison is not violating preemption, because they're not banning or regulating the sale of guns. They're merely using their zoning to make sure "handgun shops" fit into appropriate neighborhoods, just as they regulate liquor outlets and junkyards.

  16. #16
    Regular Member TyGuy's Avatar
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    Snark on

    Wah wah wah I live in Wisconsin where I can OC and CC wah wah wan

    Snark off

    - try being a fib in the only state with NO carry whatsoever

  17. #17
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    I wonder if asking J.B. van Hollen for a legal opinion would do any good?

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