Reply With QuoteWell, I hope he follows through with his threat of a lawsuit if the issue is not satisfactorily resolved. It's also pretty bad when the newspaper also references another open carrier getting harassed for a legal activity within the last month.
let's start a list of how many laws were violated by flint PD in this incident:
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2012/03/man_asserts_open-carry_rights.html
"Jason-Michael, anOccupy Flint activistwho asserts his legal right to keep a pistol strapped to his side in plain view, was approached by police and told he had to leave.
He left without incident, but he isn't happy."
He plans to write the governor and the sheriff about the issue and said he may take his complaint further.
"'I'm going to seek some kind of administrational reprieve and if that's not happening... it's going to turn into a lawsuit,' Jason-Michael said."
Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 03-14-2012 at 11:19 AM.
"If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
http://www.graystatemovie.com/
Well, I hope he follows through with his threat of a lawsuit if the issue is not satisfactorily resolved. It's also pretty bad when the newspaper also references another open carrier getting harassed for a legal activity within the last month.
"When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."
Ok, I may get flamed for this, but here goes.
I understand not everyone has the ability to stand their ground in these situations. Be it a financial problem or whatever. And Im not trying to say the subject in the story did the wrong thing, but this is the perfect example of letting the law make the mistake of unlawfully arresting the subject. I get that noone wants to be arrested, but in circumstances such as this, it would have been perfect to let them arrest you, and fight it after the fact.
The issue I see with the way this unfolded, the odds of a lawsuit being filed are slim. No one was injured, unlawfully detained, etc. And dont get me wrong, his rights as a citizen were severly violated. However, a complaint may "slap the hand" of a LEO department, but thats as far as it will go. There needs to be more focus on the fact that law enforcement committed a crime.
Im not volunteering anyone for this, but its how I feel.
i agree tucker, but as you said, who is going to be "that guy". almost everyone has a reason not to be arrested... whether it be jeopardizing a job or a child custody situation. i think the Flint PD, just by the simple act of kicking him out of the meeting violated at least a couple laws. preemption and open meetings act perhaps? and the chief is unrepentant which does not bode well for them. i think a lawsuit may yield fruit without anyone having to go to jail. that being said, i definitely agree that an unlawful arrest/detention would have gone a long way to solidify a lawsuit.
a good response from the OC community around flint might to be to turn up en masse to the next public meeting.
Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 03-14-2012 at 12:44 PM.
"If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
http://www.graystatemovie.com/
If you get arrested, you MAY have a better case in Civil regards. The problem is that you lose "the offensive" and are then required to Defend Oneself from CRIMINAL CHARGES and spend your "capital" on this instead (capital includes resources and possibly Public Opinion).Originally Posted by Tucker6900
Here is the Main Law that was violated here:
http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-752-11
The OPEN MEETINGS ACT Act 267 of 1976 was violated as well, in particular MCL 15.263.
http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-15-263
Here are the Penalties for Violating the OPEN MEETINGS ACT Act 267 of 1976:
http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-15-272
http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-15-273
http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-act-267-of-1976
Sooner or later, some cop is going to go to jail over this. Then, its on. They are going to seek retaliation, and the gun owners will become more emboldened to assert rights like open carry, and filing suits that they should have been doing all along.
Citizen Open Carrying at City Council Meeting: ZERO LAWS VIOLATED.
Police Officers Telling Citizen Open Carrying at City Council Meeting that HE MUST LEAVE: Multiple Rights Violations, Multiple Misdemeanor Violations, Responsible for Multiple Civil Liabilities.
Rights Violations: US Constitution 1st Amendment, US Constitution 2nd Amendment, MI Constitution Article I Section 3, MI Constitution Article I Section 5, MI Constitution Article I Section 6, Michigan Open Meetings Act of 1976.
Misdemeanor Violations: MCL 752.11, MCL 15.263 subsections (1) (4) (6) (Misdemeanor Penalty in MCL 16.272).
Civil Liabilities: 42 USC § 1983 (Civil action for deprivation of rights), MCL 15.271, MCL 15.273
The misdemeanors were the laws that were violated.
MOC was interviewed by MLive for a follow up story. Stay tuned.
Schweet! Good job sir!
BTW - I put a "little birdie" in the ear of the article's author to run a follow-up story. I hope I have been helping here (put a ton of comments out there on the article).
Follow up article...
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/inde..._river_default
+1 Rob - Maybe we should visit them?
Damn insomnia; couldn't sleep so I started digging. Buried in the Flint City webpages {not under council were most rational people would look} I found the following:
http://www.cityofflint.com/clerk/cc_faq.asp (See # 5 - 7)
Snip:
City Council meets on the second and fourth Monday of every month at 5:30 p.m. Special meetings may be called by the Mayor or by any two (2) members of the Council upon twenty-four (24) hours notice to each Council member and the public stating the purpose of the meeting.
A special meeting that is called a City Council meeting requires posting for eighteen (18) hours.
Committee meetings on the Wednesday before any regularly scheduled Council meeting.
Councils Special Affairs Committee meets at 4 p.m. prior to any regularly scheduled Council meeting. These times are subject to change.
The Council conducts it's business in the Council Chambers or in the Committee-of-the Whole conference room. Both are located on the third floor of the city hall building. On occasion the Council can meet at other locations.
*All citizens have the opportunity to be heard at all regular meetings of the council. If a member of the public is addressing Council at a scheduled public hearing, he or she gains recognition from the Chair by standing. If a member of the public wishes to speak on any other matter before Council, ** he or she shall submit a statement in writing containing his or her name, address and the topic to be covered. This statement will be put into a box before the Council meeting begins. This box is located at the entrance of the Council Chambers. *These rules violate the MI open meetings act in two ways: They require citizens to identify themselves in order to speak and they are "attempting" to limit comments to "any other matter before council". Figures from a city under control of a EFM that they cannot follow the law.
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...tgsfreedom.pdf
15.263 Meetings, decisions, and deliberations of public body; requirements; attending or addressing meeting of public body;
tape-recording, videotaping, broadcasting, and telecasting proceedings; rules and regulations; exclusion from meeting;
exemptions.
Sec. 3. (1) All meetings of a public body shall be open to the public and shall be held in a place available to the general
public. All persons shall be permitted to attend any meeting except as otherwise provided in this act. The right of a person to
attend a meeting of a public body includes the right to tape-record, to videotape, to broadcast live on radio, and to telecast live
on television the proceedings of a public body at a public meeting. The exercise of this right shall not be dependent upon the
prior approval of the public body. However, a public body may establish reasonable rules and regulations in order to minimize
the possibility of disrupting the meeting.
(2) All decisions of a public body shall be made at a meeting open to the public.
(3) All deliberations of a public body constituting a quorum of its members shall take place at a meeting open to the public
except as provided in this section and sections 7 and 8.
(4) A person shall not be required as a condition of attendance at a meeting of a public body to register or otherwise provide
his or her name or other information or otherwise to fulfill a condition precedent to attendance.
(5) A person shall be permitted to address a meeting of a public body under rules established and recorded by the public
body. The legislature or a house of the legislature may provide by rule that the right to address may be limited to prescribed
times at hearings and committee meetings only.
(6) A person shall not be excluded from a meeting otherwise open to the public except for a breach of the peace actually
committed at the meeting.
They say that all are invited to attend and comment is assumed to be part of that attendance, yet they attempt to intimidate people who speak by asking for their personal information. In effect they are saying you cannot speak unless you can be added to a database of theirs. While I don't care that much about giving them personal info, their intent is clear & it is not to put you on a X-mas card list. I have found more often than not members will not read their home addresses into the record. Once again, do as we say & not as we do government at work.
Council Info
Phone: 810-766-7418
Fax: 810-766-7032
Location
3rd Floor City Hall
Room 310
1101 S. Saginaw St.
Flint. MI 48502
Business Hours: Monday to Friday
8 a.m. to 5 p.m.
It appears that Flint's Court is in another building located at:
68th District Court
Floyd J McCree Building
630 S. Saginaw Street; Flint, Michigan 48502
Located on Saginaw Street between 2nd and 3rd Street
http://www.68thdistrictcourt.com/
Going by the information above it looks like the next meeting(s) will be on Monday March 26 at 5:30pm. Then in April on the 9th & the 23rd.
I would be happy to attend and coordinate a carpool(s) from the Metro Detroit area if anyone is interested in going once a date is picked.
Kind Regards - G9OS
Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 03-16-2012 at 02:59 AM. Reason: pdf
“A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.
“Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington
I'd rather not go all "in your face" straight out. I am presently looking for a volunteer in the MOC leadership wiling to communicate with Flint cordially. If all else fails -- sure, we can mass OC and even involve more media.
Of course, I'm only speaking for MOC -- individuals can and will do as they may. *shrugs* I'm just trying to avoid the "in your face" logo so many on MGO assign to us by suggesting we try civil and quiet discussions first.
Last edited by TheQ; 03-16-2012 at 09:09 AM.
Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.
I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.
Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.
+1.
We attempt to "work with" not "against" City Officials, despite what they may have done.
+1
Yes - I agree that we should work with them if possible. I know in the past that Flint city officials have been somewhat "hostile" to OCers, very similar in attitudes to their bankrupt colleagues in Pontiac. Now that may have changed, and I hope that's the case here, but if not, I and others stand ready to assist in any way possible.
“A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.
“Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington
If I am reading this right, it doesn't appear they are actually violating the open meetings act. They don't require people to identify to attend the meetings, which is all it states. They also don't require people to identify beforehand or submit questions beforehand if they are going to speak to matters currently before the council. They only require people to identify and submit questions beforehand if they want to talk about other matters which currently are not before the council. In any event, it doesn't appear to me they are violating any laws, unless I am missing something.
Last edited by griffin; 03-16-2012 at 05:49 PM.
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
"Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
"...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
Wheels
You are correct. To the "wriggle" of the law. However if you say all are welcome that would imply that all are welcome to speak without worry of retribution. This was the intent of this ACT. Of course given an inch some will twist & bend to get a mile.
Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 03-16-2012 at 06:01 PM. Reason: icon
“A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.
“Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington
MCL 15.263 subsections (1) (4) (6) were violated by the Flint Police Department.
MCL 15.263 subsection (1): A person was not allowed to attend the meeting of the Public Body. They were told to leave where no provision of the Open Meetings Act provides for removal from the meeting for carrying a pistol openly.
MCL 15.263 subsection (4): A person was not allowed to attend the meeting of the Public Body unless they disarm and do not carry a pistol openly. This would be a condition precedent to attendance at the meeting of the Public Body, which is clearly not allowed.
MCL 15.263 subsection (6): A person was not allowed to attend the meeting of the Public Body for carrying a pistol openly. The only way to exclude a person is due to a breach of the peace actually committed at the meeting, which the person would have been charged for or at least mentioned in the News Articles.
Another Follow-Up News Article:
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/inde...ders_agre.html
Lots of negative comments from the feelings crowd. If possible I urge any who care, to post in the comments section to this story.
Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 03-17-2012 at 10:57 AM.
“A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.
“Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington
PDinDetroit, my reply has nothing to do with the Flint police incident. I was replying to Glock9mmOldStyle about something different.
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
"Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
"...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
Wheels
Oh, dear- next someone will 'disrupt' things by using their First Amendment rights. We should get rid of this open meeting nonsense forthwith. The people need to trust their government to do the right thing without a bunch of slack jawed yokels horning in!
/sarc
'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!
'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)
They really dont care what people say anyhow, might as well.
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