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Thread: Democrat "patriotism"

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Democrat "patriotism"

    http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/...LR5Q/#comments

    When I refer too obama supporters as "zealots" and "acolytes", perhaps I'm not too far off.
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Well, it seems you can't deny that they have a religious outlook now... seeing as they Do worship a "sort of a God"
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 03-14-2012 at 01:04 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Well, it seems you can't deny that they have a religious outlook now... seeing as they Do worship a "sort of a God"
    Be careful, you could be accused of religious bigotry. Obamaphobia...

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    I just saw this on Fox News, and while I'm sure the Monster I'm drinking isn't helping, it really got my heart rate going with how angry I am over this. The fact that the Democrats thought this was OK and then tried to spin it as "well they're only upset because they can't accept Obama as POTUS" is just absolutely infuriating to the point that I'm at a loss for words for how to properly describe how I feel over this.

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    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Well, it seems you can't deny that they have a religious outlook now... seeing as they Do worship a "sort of a God"
    Evil when a minority of Democrats do it, and so horrid that someone would some regular man's face on the flag. But, would you say the same for the many hundreds, if not thousands, of U.S. Flag's I have seen in the south and bible belt, who do the exact same thing? Few of them bearing yet another man's face, others just a plain crux.
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    What a shame

    that the veterans don't respect the free speech rights of others - the very rights they fought to preserve.

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    Evil when a minority of Democrats do it, and so horrid that someone would some regular man's face on the flag. But, would you say the same for the many hundreds, if not thousands, of U.S. Flag's I have seen in the south and bible belt, who do the exact same thing? Few of them bearing yet another man's face, others just a plain crux.
    I've never seen anyone place anyone else's face on a US flag, and I would just as easily find it contemptible if someone put any other symbols on it. Unfortunately the only people I see consistently desecrate the flag are leftists. Wether it was the pictures of hippie scum in the 60's with flags sewn on their asses while waving the NVA flag, or the crap below that I've seen in DC protests.

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    It's all equally disrespectful, and equally as contemptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by DCR View Post
    that the veterans don't respect the free speech rights of others - the very rights they fought to preserve.
    Voicing outrage is just as valid a form of speech. No one was looking for laws prohibiting anything. Of course when it comes to bed wetters, only their speech should be free.
    Last edited by PrayingForWar; 03-14-2012 at 02:28 PM.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    Evil when a minority of Democrats do it, and so horrid that someone would some regular man's face on the flag. But, would you say the same for the many hundreds, if not thousands, of U.S. Flag's I have seen in the south and bible belt, who do the exact same thing? Few of them bearing yet another man's face, others just a plain crux.
    Got any links to photos of those hundreds, if not thousands?

    Not saying you are not truthful, just that I am from AND in the south and I don't see any US flags with a face in place of the stars....until now.

    Oh, I do get around the south, on hunting trips and fishing trips. Been around the south quite a bit when I drove a truck for a living.

    Obviously not to every little hamlet or villiage, but I've been around the south for over the past 30 years or so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ07 View Post
    Evil when a minority of Democrats do it, and so horrid that someone would some regular man's face on the flag. But, would you say the same for the many hundreds, if not thousands, of U.S. Flag's I have seen in the south and bible belt, who do the exact same thing? Few of them bearing yet another man's face, others just a plain crux.
    Ah, but I do wonder, would your vaunted respect for free speech have been as pronounced had this happened in 2004 with Dubya placed on the flag by some evangelical group? Also curious, how is expressing disdain for this or anything else denying anybody their rights?

    They have every right to do this, I don't have a partisan dog in this fight. That said, it's been my experience that "both" pretend sides of the statist coin are just happy as corn fuzz to scream for their freedoms when they are doing something others look down on, but change masks the moment their pretend opposition does something they disapprove of. People, sheesh.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I'd be kinda interested in seeing a few myself.
    There must at least be a few online, if there are that many.

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    And just as unacceptable IMO as the court allowing this tribe to kill two of our national birds. Their resaon is BS. Is this more BS social justice?

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/14/wyoming-native-american-tribe-gets-rare-permit-to-kill-bald-eagles/
    ,

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostOfJefferson View Post
    Ah, but I do wonder, would your vaunted respect for free speech have been as pronounced had this happened in 2004 with Dubya placed on the flag by some evangelical group? Also curious, how is expressing disdain for this or anything else denying anybody their rights?

    They have every right to do this, I don't have a partisan dog in this fight. That said, it's been my experience that "both" pretend sides of the statist coin are just happy as corn fuzz to scream for their freedoms when they are doing something others look down on, but change masks the moment their pretend opposition does something they disapprove of. People, sheesh.
    +1

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    Regular Member DrakeZ07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostOfJefferson View Post
    *SNIP*Ah, but I do wonder, would your vaunted respect for free speech have been as pronounced had this happened in 2004 with Dubya placed on the flag by some evangelical group? Also curious, how is expressing disdain for this or anything else denying anybody their rights? /SNIP
    Probably not, President Obama, isn't as bad as Dubya to the scale as a whole, he's yet to drag us into a war lasting longer than Vietnam, and yet to invade a sovereign nation for no other reason than revenge, oil, and corrupt capitalists. I.E.; Pres. Obama has not invaded North Korea, Iran, or Libya, and set in stage for us to stay there for more than a decade. Pres. Obama has not made up BS False accusations, wasted Government money on false, Photoshopped satellite pictures, and launched us into another war with a different middle-eastern, Islamic country. But for the sake of being "fair and equal", he's about to get four more years to do just that, since he's already went on par with Fmr. President Bush JR's policies, economic socialism, and fascist mis-use of the constitution to impoverish, and deny rights to American Citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Got any links to photos of those hundreds, if not thousands?
    Not saying you are not truthful, just that I am from AND in the south and I don't see any US flags with a face in place of the stars....until now.
    Oh, I do get around the south, on hunting trips and fishing trips. Been around the south quite a bit when I drove a truck for a living.
    Obviously not to every little hamlet or villiage, but I've been around the south for over the past 30 years or so.
    Sorry for shortening your paragraph there, went too far below the page on my iPhone.

    Anyone can use the major search engines for "Jesus face on U.S. Flags" or "US Flag with Jesus"; On google images, within the first two pages, last I looked two hours ago, there's seven with his face in place of the stars.

    Now, I've may not have been around as long as you, nor have I been to every state in the south, my experiance and what I've seen, has been primarily along the KY/VA border, and along US31 (I think it was 31, or 31A) that I took while heading down to Huntsville, AL for a FurCon; Many different incarnations of the U.S. Flag with Jesus either within the stripes, or in the place of the stars. In both areas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    And just as unacceptable IMO as the court allowing this tribe to kill two of our national birds. Their resaon is BS. Is this more BS social justice?

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/14/wyoming-native-american-tribe-gets-rare-permit-to-kill-bald-eagles/
    ,
    Ooh, there might be some good precedent in there, though:
    William Downes, then a federal judge in Wyoming, dismissed the charge against Friday in 2006 saying it would have been pointless for him to apply for a permit. Downes said the federal government generally refuses to grant permits to tribal members to kill eagles even though federal regulations say such permits should be available.
    Yeah a dismissed charge probably isn't a legal precedent, but it's the principle of the ruling that I like.
    Last edited by MAC702; 03-14-2012 at 07:37 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingForWar View Post
    It's all equally disrespectful, and equally as contemptable.
    We shouldn't place so much weight in symbols. They are open to interpretation and their meaning may differ from the sender to the recipient.

    Whether burning a flag is disrespectful or the proper means of disposal depends on the intent of the person burning it, doesn't it? Therefore, if you care about such things (I confess I don't), you must accept that the intent of the person doing whatever with the flag is important to your own reaction thereto.

    Keep in mind, most of these flags aren't intended to piss you off. It's a way of saying, "Hey, I'm gay, and gay rights are important to me, but I'm also a patriotic American, and to me the two go hand in hand", or "Hey, I'm a neo-nazi, and I love being an American!"

    You don't have to like those messages, but it's just as silly to twist it into something tantamount to an intentional act of disrespect because it offends your sensibilities, as it is to have some silly variation on the American flag in the first place.

    Symbols should have merit, or not, based on the merit of the ideas they represent, or are intended to represent.

    Giving a symbol inherent value and meaning (which none can possibly have), is no more enlightened a form of patriotism than is equating love of country with love of government, or worse government's "leader".

    Just my opinion, folks.
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-14-2012 at 08:23 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    And just as unacceptable IMO as the court allowing this tribe to kill two of our national birds. Their resaon is BS. Is this more BS social justice?

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/14/wyoming-native-american-tribe-gets-rare-permit-to-kill-bald-eagles/
    ,
    See, once again, they aren't doing it to piss you off, they're doing it to get some spiritual eagle feather or some nonsense.

    Who gives a crap?

    And consider what you're doing. You're taking an act which, in intent, has nothing to do with expression, you're equating it with expression (why else would it matter that the Eagle is a national symbol, unless you're equating the act with desecration thereof), and then declaring it "unacceptable".

    There is no such thing as "unacceptable" expression, There is only expression which you don't like. And nobody gives a damn whether you like their expression. Nor should they.
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-14-2012 at 08:13 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingForWar View Post
    Voicing outrage is just as valid a form of speech. No one was looking for laws prohibiting anything.
    Then what is the point? Who cares about your outrage, or theirs, if they are just voicing it to make themselves feel better? Don't we all have better things to discuss, other than things people do which annoy us?

    Next up: I'm going to create a thread with all kinds of strongly worded language and insinuation on the topic of my hatred for rap, hip-hop, and all things "urban" in music. I'll find some Veterans who share my displeasure, just to make my opinion seem somehow relevant to anything at all of any merit. I'm not going to call for its ban, I'm just going to argue vociferously that its mere existence is an insult to me, my country, and everything I love (which it is, seriously). I'm assuming you'll all join me, and care?
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-14-2012 at 08:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    We shouldn't place so much weight in symbols. They are open to interpretation and their meaning may differ from the sender to the recipient.

    Whether burning a flag is disrespectful or the proper means of disposal depends on the intent of the person burning it, doesn't it? Therefore, if you care about such things (I confess I don't), you must accept that the intent of the person doing whatever with the flag is important to your own reaction thereto.

    Keep in mind, most of these flags aren't intended to piss you off. It's a way of saying, "Hey, I'm gay, and gay rights are important to me, but I'm also a patriotic American, and to me the two go hand in hand", or "Hey, I'm a neo-nazi, and I love being an American!"

    You don't have to like those messages, but it's just as silly to twist it into something tantamount to an intentional slight because it offends your sensibilities, as it is to have some silly variation on the American flag in the first place.

    Symbols should have merit, or not, baed on the merit of the ideas they represent, or are intended to represent.

    Giving a symbol inherent value and meaning (which none can possibly have), is no more enlightened a form of patriotism than is equating love of country with love of government, or worse government's "leader".

    Just my opinion, folks.
    You raise a valid point, perhaps I'm hypersensitive to what I consider defacing the flag. I just wouldn't approve of anyone's symbols on it, regardless of their intent. I view it as a lack of respect, though I wouldn't push for laws against it.


    People use the Statue of Liberty holding a variety of things to either promote an agenda, or sell things. I don't care for the commercial use of the symbol, but it isn't that big of a deal either. I will say the "cult of personality" surrounding the moonbat messiah is the most disturbing aspect of this issue.
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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Snip... I'm going to create a thread with all kinds of strongly worded language and insinuation on the topic of my hatred for rap, hip-hop, and all things "urban" in music.
    You'll be called a racist, not that you'd care either.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingForWar View Post
    You'll be called a racist, not that you'd care either.
    LOL! Right on both counts, I suspect.

    By the way, one of the veterans said:

    "If you've been a veteran and fought -- and some died for this flag -- you don't want to see it desecrated. That's how simple it is," Van Beck said.
    Frankly, I'm not sure what to think about someone who fights and dies for a flag rather than, say, freedom. Which includes, you know, the freedom of doing tacky and tasteless things with flags.

    Sounds to me like such a person is fighting for a government (for which the flag is ultimately a symbol), rather than the ideas which our society cherishes (or used to cherish).

    I might say that I find that a little disrespectful. Certainly no less disrespectful than some ridiculous Obama Messiah flag, which I find too hilariously stupid to really even think of as disrespectful.

    It's kind of like, a retarded kid might give me the finger, but you know what? I'm not going to let that bother me. It probably doesn't mean to him what it does to me. He is, after all, a retard.


    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingForWar View Post
    I will say the "cult of personality" surrounding the moonbat messiah is the most disturbing aspect of this issue.
    Ah! Now you've got me on board (now that we're talking about what the symbol is intended to represent).

    And I agree completely. Citizen made an excellent post recently regarding the difference in perception of the office of President from the time of its inception to today.

    People should be more concerned with electing representatives who actually consider the concerns of their constituency, rather than electing some figurehead who pretends to represent their "side" in the fictitious left-vs-right "debate". (The best part is the cute way in which everyone and all their friends are conveniently on the same "side". Politics isn't about thought anymore, it's about pretending you're smart and cool for your friends. Disgusting.)
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-14-2012 at 08:36 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    LOL! Right on both counts, I suspect.

    By the way, one of the veterans said:



    Frankly, I'm not sure what to think about someone who fights and dies for a flag rather than, say, freedom. Which includes, you know, the freedom of doing tacky and tasteless things with flags.

    Sounds to me like such a person is fighting for a government (for which the flag is ultimately a symbol), rather than the ideas which our society cherishes (or used to cherish).

    I might say that I find that a little disrespectful. Certainly no less disrespectful than some ridiculous Obama Messiah flag, which I find too hilariously stupid to really even think of as disrespectful.

    It's kind of like, a retarded kid might give me the finger, but you know what? I'm not going to let that bother me. It probably doesn't mean to him what it does to me. He is, after all, a retard.




    Ah! Now you've got me on board (now that we're talking about what the symbol is intended to represent).

    And I agree completely. Citizen made an excellent post recently regarding the difference in perception of the office of President from the time of its inception to today.

    People should be more concerned with electing representatives who actually consider the concerns of their constituency, rather than electing some figurehead who pretends to represent their "side" in the fictitious left-vs-right "debate". (The best part is the cute way in which everyone and all their friends are conveniently on the same "side". Politics isn't about thought anymore, it's about pretending you're smart and cool for your friends. Disgusting.)
    I think of the flag as representing the country, and that the country represents (or at least once did) individual freedom.

    I think a big mistake was changing how we elect the federal gov't. It used to be done at the state level. Now it's more of a beauty pagent, and the contestents are probably even more vacuous.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingForWar View Post
    I think of the flag as representing the country, and that the country represents (or at least once did) individual freedom.
    I used to feel this way, I honestly did. For some reason, now, when I see the flag, it doesn't fill me with pride, or remind me of the country (not nation, mind you) in which I live, a fact for which I thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster each day. For some reason, now it just makes me think of government.

    I kind of feel like government (especially the Federal government) has co-opted the flag.

    You have to admit that government does try to obliterate the distinction between "country" and "government" (a process called nationalism), attempting to redefine "patriotism" as "support for the actions of government" and thereby usurp all civic pride in order to prop up its baseless claim to the "mandate of the people".

    I fly the Virginia flag, which to me is still a symbol of my state, but not The State.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCR View Post
    that the veterans don't respect the free speech rights of others - the very rights they fought to preserve.
    Am I demanding that there be a law preventing them from doing it? No, I'm not. Am I saying that it's not their right to be able to do this? No, I'm not. So quit trying to put words in my mouth and quit trying to twist this around to make us vets that think this is disgusting as bad guys.

    Being against things like this is no different than being against things like the Westboro Church. It is disgraceful, it is disrespectful, but we're NOT saying that it should be illegal. But those that partake in such actions should be shunned by the community and it should be clear that such things are NOT viewed as acceptable by the community even if they are to be tolerated.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    ...the Westboro Church. It is disgraceful, it is disrespectful...
    Yeah, but who cares? So long as they don't aggress...

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    Social consequences and legal consequences are different.

    Sorta like you don't normally invite animal rights activists to your pigeon shoot. (somehow they show up anyway though)

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