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Thread: required to produce permit???

  1. #1
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    required to produce permit???

    I was wondering, if a person is just walking down the street open carrying does a police officer have the right to stop you and ask to see your permit? If not, where would I go to find validation of that. A state statute for instance. My wife and I took our pistol class this past weekend and already she is having someone tell her that she would have to produce the permit if asked and we were under the impression that we did not have to produce it. Any help would be great.

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    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    This has been discussed in this forum many, many times.

    The bottom line is this:

    If the police have no RAS to stop you, they have no lawful authority to demand your ID (of any type).

    Conversely, if they do have RAS, you don't have any basis to deny really any lawful demand.
    Determining whether or not the officer has RAS is the difficult part, and you certainly need to be prepared to fight the 'interfering' charge if you do plan on denying the request.

    Note that during any traffic stop, they DO have the statutory authority to demand your driver's license no matter what. That is an explicit statute.

    You are not going to find a law that says you don't have to provide ID. Laws don't work that way.

    Applicable references:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_...ourt_of_Nevada
    http://ctcarry.com/wwwroot/Document/...7-ea345e5bb3a0


    Don't ask advice of police officers, gun shop employees or patrons or anyone who doesn't first understand Terry.
    Last edited by Rich B; 03-14-2012 at 04:44 PM.
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  3. #3
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    According to this resource, a good one for ones first glance at a new subject, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify Connecticut does not have a 'Stop and identify statute.'

    Not being an attorney (YOU should take legal advice/instruction ONLY from your personal attorney, paid to bind him to the canons), the Fourth Amendment should keep you secure in your person, papers and effects, and, the Fifth Amendment, from being required/compelled to incriminate oneself.

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    Regular Member motoxmann's Avatar
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    my personal opinion, not legally speaking, I would simply provide your permit anytime asked by an on-duty officer. denying any request from an officer usually just results in more aggravation, even if you do have the right to deny the request. because after-all, if you're totally legal to do what you're doing, the only reason you could want to deny is to be a jerk an annoy the cop. if your gun is legal and you have your permit, the one action you could do to create the lowest level of stress on all parties and take the least amount of time is simply show your permit.

    and legally speaking, if someone calls the police on you for openly carrying a gun, the police do have the right to detain you until you provide proof of having your permit, in which case they then have to immediately release you if you have done nothing illegal.
    also legally speaking, it is illegal to carry a handgun at all, concealed or open, without having your permit on your person.

    and typically, from what I have heard from friends who occasionally carry open, as long as you are acting totally normal while open-carrying in non-confrontational locations, if an officer sees you open-carrying and he recognises that you are aware of him and dont change your manner of actions once you become aware of him, they usually wont even bother asking because they probably assume you wouldnt be stupid enough to open carry a gun especially in front of an officer if you didnt have a permit for it and have the permit on you.

    I have also heard from a few people who have had the cops called on them for open carrying in public, the cops often dont even ask to see your permit, they simply say "do you have a permit for that handgun?" and when the person said yes, the officer simply said ok and left, never even bothered to actually ask to see it.

    hopefully this helps answer your question as well.
    Last edited by motoxmann; 03-14-2012 at 05:07 PM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoxmann View Post
    technically speaking, not legally, I would simply provide your permit anytime asked by an on-duty officer. denying any request from an officer usually just results in more aggravation, even if you do have the right to deny the request.
    This is only opinion, not technical in any way.

    and legally speaking, if someone calls the police on you for openly carrying a gun, the police do have the right to detain you until you provide proof of having your permit, in which case they then have to immediately release you if you have done nothing illegal.
    Cite your source please. An unconcealed firearm is not RAS of a crime.

    also legally speaking, it is illegal to carry a handgun at all, concealed or open, without having your permit on your person.
    It is an infraction.
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    Regular Member motoxmann's Avatar
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    correct, opinion, not a technicality, I changed my wording in my post

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    Cite your source please. An unconcealed firearm is not RAS of a crime.
    I have not seen the specific law or statute, but I did read it in the Torrington Memo stickied at the top of the CT section, in the very first post. I would assume they would not say this if it were not law?
    quoted from the memo:
    **Officer and Public Safety always comes first.** Having a good knowledge of the laws will help in this situation. Officers may still detain a person carrying a firearm to ascertain if that person has a valid permit. If this is the case and there is no other violation, the person is free to leave. If that person is acting in a manner that violates any other laws or ordinances, appropriate action should be taken. A professional response without overreaction will go a long way in these situations.

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    Regular Member motoxmann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    It is an infraction.
    just for personal knowledge; legally speaking, is committing an infraction considered committing an illegal action?

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    Thanks for all the great answers. In all honestly I would most likely show the officer my permit. If I did choose not too it would be more so to make a statement and to assert my rights than to give the officer a hard time. Thanks again....

  9. #9
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    How about when the enforcer asks, Papieren, Bitte! We have only the rights that we protect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motoxmann View Post
    just for personal knowledge; legally speaking, is committing an infraction considered committing an illegal action?
    Well an infraction is not a crime , although it is adjudicated by the criminal rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dan147 View Post
    Thanks for all the great answers. In all honestly I would most likely show the officer my permit. .
    i know you will

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    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoxmann View Post
    I have not seen the specific law or statute
    Then you shouldn't be repeating it to others.

    but I did read it in the Torrington Memo stickied at the top of the CT section, in the very first post. I would assume they would not say this if it were not law?
    Don't get your advice from the police, get it from the statutes or from an attorney.
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  13. #13
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoxmann View Post
    just for personal knowledge; legally speaking, is committing an infraction considered committing an illegal action?
    Of course. But you should strive to be clear about legal things. Carrying without your permit is not an arrestable offense. That is a pretty important piece of information when contrasted to just saying 'it is illegal'.
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  14. #14
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    This is an example of refusing to produce ID in Connecticut while OCing:

    http://withregardstorights.com/post/...nin-to-do.aspx
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    Dogs...

    Just like when you walk down the street with your dog and the dog warden comes up and says "I see you openly walking your dog, I need to check the dog license tags" and proceeds to seize your dog and search its collar.. oh wait.. they can't.

    Same thing with the pistol, if you have not, are not, or not about to commit some crime then the police have no reasonable articulable suspicion to detain you. Not to say that certain police may not concoct some RAS or use their powers of coercion to guilt you into showing your permit. Without RAS they cannot legally force you to show it. They can ask, you can refuse, if the cop wants to be a jerk he will escalate it into something to create RAS, Rich will tell you to record all the time you're OC'ing. Having a recording of the interaction will keep all parties honest as to what was said (and how).

  16. #16
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldCoaster View Post
    Same thing with the pistol, if you have not, are not, or not about to commit some crime then the police have no reasonable articulable suspicion to detain you. Not to say that certain police may not concoct some RAS or use their powers of coercion to guilt you into showing your permit. Without RAS they cannot legally force you to show it. They can ask, you can refuse, if the cop wants to be a jerk he will escalate it into something to create RAS, Rich will tell you to record all the time you're OC'ing. Having a recording of the interaction will keep all parties honest as to what was said (and how).
    +1

    Never resist, never consent, but always assert your rights.

    Always be polite and professional and know your rights.

    Remember: If you conduct yourself well and your rights are violated, the issue can always be addressed later in court.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan147 View Post
    I was wondering, if a person is just walking down the street open carrying does a police officer have the right to stop you and ask to see your permit? .
    Some think that no permit is required ... its a right, correct?

  18. #18
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    Re arrest for failing to carry a permit.

    I am embarrassed to say that I got a ticket for just that about a month ago. I was shooting in a state forest and a Conservation Officer rolled up.
    I is technically illegal to shoot in a state forest, but I didn't know that and had been shooting there for 20 years. (Its a highly used sand pit in Chester)

    The cop asked to see some ID, reasonable considering the circumstances. I went into my pocket and came up with nothing.

    To make a long story short, once he ID'd me he wrote me a ticket for failure to carry a PP and sent me on my way.
    I sent the infraction in not-guilty. Even though I was clearly guilty.

    It is common practice for all prosecutors to nolle any ticket for "failure to carry X" if you arrive at court with X. I produced the permit and the charge was nolled.

    Stupid. I can't believe I screwed up like that. But lets be clear here. I absolutely positively gave the Officer RAS. Walking down the street minding your own business does not provide RAS.

    "excuse me sir. I need you to blow into this breathylizer give me your insurance card. No you didn't do anything wrong, but I see you are operating a MV and I just need to make sure you are not drunk and that you have insurance."

    Don
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    +1

    Never resist, never consent, .
    Baaaa ! said the lamb

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